2009-10-06, 19:27 | Link #16522 | |
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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Quote:
...... ........ ...am I seeing things? Tk actually contributing to the crack building?!?!?! That said, my thoughts exactly. I'll leave the rest to the good hands of FFT.
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2009-10-06, 19:34 | Link #16523 |
Test Drive
Author
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Seventh chapter of "Shadowfire" is officially up and running: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5301936/7/Shadowfire
If only I'd thought ahead and written everything out for BtBR and "Sisters" as well...
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2009-10-07, 01:19 | Link #16525 |
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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Just a little food for thought, since I don't know where in the world this would go... in my explorations of the definition of magic and irony, I've come across a new perspective to the issue.
We see Nanoha World "stuff" and call it magic because we have no understanding of the concepts involved that run the show, and others where it outright counters what we already know about our world. The world itself calling it magic seems to lend credence to the theory, but that in effect is a red herring. They know so much about their magic that it's actually a science to them. However, there are also instances where they know little or nothing about something and how they work. That to them is the real magic! When you learn about how something works, it ceases to exist as magic and becomes simply an aspect of logic. Hence, if the TSAB were to encounter ESPers, or if the idea of Inherent Skills is completely foreign to them, that is their magic to them. Hence, What We Are Shown As Magic Is Actually Science. And as long as IS and IA continue to be skirted around in canon, as long as Lost Logia exist, as long as no one understands the concept of ESP, these unknowns are then the real magic of Nanoha World.
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2009-10-07, 02:11 | Link #16527 |
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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Hey I built that thread until it got hijacked. Since then, I've refused to post there as much as possible.
My post was more a cry of frustration at people in some places that forget that simple principle and keep asking to be Dreadsock'd as a result, which I can't since I don't have the rulebooks nor the Dreadnaught to sock them with. For everyone else, that is why you often see me claim that the magic in Nanoha is actually what you should call "Science" (Even then it's still a bad use of the word!!!) But most importantly, I hope it would serve as a little inspiration. It opens an avenue of fics to mainstream if you will. If me saying that in red spurs a lurker to become the next Sci-fi-fantasy Satashi, I'd be very happy.
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2009-10-07, 02:32 | Link #16528 |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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The point of Kha's post methinks is that while we do believe in the saying that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable magic" as per the words of the late Sir Arthur C. Clarke, the Nanohaverse having "true" magic is not really impossible.
The reason people call anything "magic" is to explain phenomenon which they cannot explain with logic and reason. And yet in Nanohaverse, their "magic" is so well understood in both mechanism and principle that for the most part it ceases to be "magic" and actually becomes science. However, if they are confronted with a phenomenon that defies all their current knowledge about mana-based technology, then to them that becomes their true "magic". It's all a matter of cultural perspective: To a Roman living in the Year 1 AD, the workings of a television set would be so inexplicably illogical that he would treat it as "miraculous" or "magical", and yet for us here in the Year 2009 AD that said television works is taken for granted as a fact of life; or we could take the example of Lightning: people from that time treated lightning as a God in and of itself, and yet today lightning is seen as little more than an extremely powerful electric current. And yet if people from, say 4009 AD would go back and show us things like physical shapeshifting, FTL teleportation, interdimensional travel and easy energy-mass conversion technologies we would be so hard-pressed to explain the technology behind them that we really might describe it as magic. (Of course, there is the fact that 21st-century mentality is that we've grown so accustomed to outlandish concepts with sci-fi that we might simply be open minded and say that it's an "unexplainable technology", but then again seeing is another matter entirely). Given that the universe (and if you believe it, the multiverse) is such a infinitesmally vast place and that even our most cutting edge physics can only scratch the surface of what makes the universe tick (even SuperString and M Theory may not be an accurate representations of the universe, as they're only approximations), we won't be running out of new sciences to discover anytime soon, however as long as we run into phenomena that our current scientific knowledge doesn't understand or comprehend, then to many people, it would simply be described as "magic". It's not impossible to think then that the TSAB, as advanced as they are, will actually be able to find phenomena that stretch the limits of their understanding of the physical world, or shatters it altogether. PS: I actually had pondered over these alot when trying to justify the existence for my OC group EXCOM
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2009-10-07, 02:42 | Link #16530 |
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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Thanks for covering my back Lowe. =3
PPS: Aaah... It would be boring otherwise. There'd be nothing new to learn! For me, it's more of how I depict the workings of Nanohaverse, where all the lasers and sci-fi stuff are metaphorically expressed in describing canon magic, and where I then introduce users of "science" powers that utilize elements stereotyped as magic from our perspective. It's just me I guess. It's a bit hard to understand considering that it's only been expressed in character profiles thus far... @itanshi: No that post is perfectly fine. I'm just afraid that posting what I said earlier in the tech thread will invoke yet another firestorm there... So I'm not going to risk waking the dragon if you will My English really is that bad, I know. >_<
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2009-10-07, 02:48 | Link #16531 |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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Thinking about it, we are hijacking this thread Still, the fear of setting off another sh**storm in Magic and Tech thread is what prevents us from using that place to post matters like these due to the presence of certain people... *cough*
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2009-10-07, 12:04 | Link #16534 | |
Beta by Accident
Author
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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Quote:
We see Nanoha World "stuff" and call it magic entirely because they call it magic. Simply put: let's say you turn on StrikerS. You see a highly-advanced future civilization. You see holographic computer screens. Targeting displays. Spaceships. Clones. Combat Cyborgs (setting aside the fact that the cyborgs apparently don't run on magic). Brains existing in life-support tubes. Mad scientists running amok. What would you think? "Sci-fi series with plenty Sufficiently Advanced Technology." When Nanoha & Co. go into their superhero antics, I'd bet the word "nanotechnology" would go through at least 67% of all brains watching as an explanation for how they're doing that. But no. We call it "magic." Because the people inhabiting this sci-fi society call it magic. It just so happens that "magic" is a proven, objectively verifiable force in the Nanohaverse, so the societies that encounter it do what a normal human civilization would do: they apply the scientific method to study "magic," and they learn some of the laws that it works by, and having found that it's an efficient way to do things, as well as a clean, low-polluting way, and possibly for sociopolitical reasons as well ("our planet has a high concentration of mages, so we'll make magic the technological/combat base for known space, preventing most potential rivals from being able to mount an external threat"), made it the basis for their technology. It's correct to point out that there are things about magic that Midchildan society doesn't understand. Indeed, they're in a similar position with regard to magic as we in the real world are with regard to real-world physics (as LoweGear highlights). But there is a difference. The very definition of magic is as a supernatural force. Once you're writing fiction and define something as magic, physical laws are out the window if you want them to be. Sure, you can run your magic system on something similar to the law of conservation of energy, but if you don't want to, you don't have to. Don't feel like thinking up a hand-wave (or trying to apply the latest known principles of Cold Hard Science(TM) ) for FTL travel or how clones can be imprinted with the memories of what they took the clone's DNA from? No problem--it's magic! The fact that the cultural response to magic in the Nanohaverse is to treat it in a scientific fashion should not be allowed to distract from the fact that by identifying it as magic, it is something different than the laws which govern our real-world universe. This is probably the single strongest reason why I'm attracted to the Nanoha franchise. It combines the futuristic setting of science fiction with the mystery and wonder of fantasy. It makes possible the uber-idealistic outlook of Nanoha and her friends, which in a more reality-based universe would look childish, naive, and doomed to get them badly hurt. Now, I know there are a lot of people on these boards who take the opposite view: they delight in restricting the Nanohaverse's "magic" to being merely another form of Sufficiently Advanced Technology (even to the extreme of stating that magic in the Nanohaverse must comply with the laws of physics as we know them). That's clearly a matter of opinion, and frankly when one is running around creating fanfiction, one is free to take whatever position one wants to in one's interpretation of canon, so long as it makes for a good story! (Hey, if I can write a story in which Arisa comes back from the dead as a ghost, who the hell am I to tell someone else that they can't write a story in which a Divine Buster has to comply with the First Law of Thermodynamics?) But I can't help but think that in doing so, it's kind of missing the point. If Midchildan magic is just technology by another name, then how is the Nanohaverse different from Star Wars or Warhammer 40K or (especially) Stargate or any other sci-fi franchise? That's why I write stories--and like to read stories--which treat the magic as being magic, so that when it needs to be there, that note of fantasy and wonder can be evoked. (Well, okay, there is really very little loli fanservice in Star Trek, but besides that! ) |
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2009-10-07, 13:58 | Link #16536 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Aileen: Oh look, the bipedals are debating the reality magic. It's so amusing to see them talking about forces beyond their comprehension as if they know all about them. But really though, remember this?
I think it's time we go and see whether you even managed to save one tiny little life before we continue debating finer points of magic, don't you think? In a flash of light, you return to the underground lab. You blink as you remember the choice. Right. Run at the drone and try to bash it of Quint. You charge at the drone, ignoring a warning cry from Megane and raise your arms to smash your device into the drone as hard as you can. *shunk* The sound of metal piercing flesh makes itself known as the drone raises one of its unoccupied legs and thrusts it forward, piercing you chest straight trough. The cries of your commanding officers fade away as the life bleeds out of your body through the hole in your chest. Suddenly, as if waking up, you open your eyes and find yourself in the white world again, apparently still wearing the Ground Force uniform. Your device is in the hands of Aileen, who is looking it over with what seems like fascination. "Such an amazing device. Supports defensive spells, increased stability, reinforces your grounding position, mental scope, it even has support for rapid fire and firing on the move. Truly an amazing Mid Childan device." Aileen's fascinated look changes immediately as she looks up and glares at you. "Which of course makes your action all the more idiotic. You're a Mid Childan mage holding a Mid Childan device and you think its a smart idea to run up to a drone designed for close combat? I mean if you don't want to save Quint you only have to say so. Let's try again." Aileen once again fades away in the whiteness of the world, you hear her fading voice tell you one last thing. "Oh, and by the way, if you have any questions just ask. I'll give you the best dictionary." When the white itself fades away, you once again face the same choice. A: Try shooting the drone of Quint. B: Run at the drone and bash it of Quint. C: Help Megane with the drone attacking her. D: Do nothing. |
2009-10-07, 14:33 | Link #16539 | ||||||
Loveable Jerk
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Firs off I don't really buy into that quote entirely myself. To me that quote while elegant has also has a certain ring of falsehood. Basically it would IMO never work on anyone with a grasp of the scientific method, as they'd see not magic, but merely a technology they do not yet understand. More accurately it might be said: "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic to ignorant savages with no education in reasoning or the scientific method." Which admittedly isn't quite as elegant... Still the problem is that Nanoha-verse is clearly driven by a scientific not religious or mystical approach to magic. So they would be highly unlikely to class anything as "true magic". It would simply be a skill or effect they could no yet duplicate that warrants study. Quote:
On seeing something unexplained most people would not be inclined to shout “WITCHCRAFT!”, but be curious and intrigued as to how it was done. They’d be looking for the “trick” that was used, not assuming it’s simply “unexplainable” or "magic". I see more or less no reason the TSAB, which has been exposed to many fantastic things it can now fully explain, should be different. Why when seeing something new they wouldn't go "Intresting I wonder how it was done?", but instead. "ZOMG TRUE MAGIC!!!" Quote:
Science really did kill magic. In a metaphorical sense anyway. Even in roman times I think the reaction would depend on who you showed it too. An illiterate peasant might indeed consider it magic, but a better educated scholar might not be so quick to toss out reason and logic and declare it magical. Even back then those men had the same mental capacity as us and where more cleaver then we often give them credit for. Actually Rome or Greece might be more likely to question its magical nature then some places since both had there share of skeptics with regards to the divine and supposed magic. Quote:
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We don't fully understand what occurs in a Blackhole, I've yet to see anyone refer to it as "magic". Quote:
Regardless it's clear the TSAB does not endorse "it's magic j00!" as an explanation for things. So it would not label some new skill it can't fully explain "true magic", it would merely consider it an unknown and begin studying it in a scientific manner. This is also why I consider most scenarios where the TSAB goes ape shit over some new discovery illogical and absurd. People clearly grounded in scientific method would not treat some new discovery as a possible threat; at least not without study of it to determine if it truly is. (To me many of these would be like people discovering atomic fission and then the US government cracking down on them in a crazed attempt to suppress their findings using assassins and ninjas.)
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2009-10-07, 14:42 | Link #16540 | ||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Quote:
This leaves the SF-30 and the A/GS-80. Speed is not really essential here, as the target is not a fleeing enemy fighter, but it does have the highest firepower. In addition, its immunity to drone attacks means it doesn't have to worry about the drones as much as the other two fighters. To top that off, it has the speed as a backup, in case it does prove to be needed. At the very least it will make it a hell of a lot harder to hit for the Cradle's more powerful defenses. All around I'd say I choose the SF-30. In terms of loadout, again, air superiority is not the greatest of concerns. That's what our friendlies are for. Those same friendlies also make Hammers a no-no. Dogfights are by their very nature unpredictable, and firing wildly with friendlies possibly being everywhere is not exactly conductive to good teamwork. For that reason, we'll pack Crusaders. So, final selection: B-2. Quote:
Though it is sort of ironic that the so called 'scientific' psychic powers in To Aru are basically the psychic saying "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" |
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authorshipping, befriending, fanfiction, interactive fanfiction, nanoha |
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