Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Also the USA messed up bad when it came to postwar Vietnam. The reason why Ho Chi Minh sided with the Soviets is because they supported him, not the other way around. Ho was a nationalist first and would've accepted American help as well, but instead we backed French colonial wishes. The situation is not at all comparable to Korea.

U.S didn't mess up bad, a certain president literally laughed in Ho's face when he asked for Vietnam's independence under the treaty of Versailles.

[AnimeFan188]

Japan Is Open To Placing Officials On Disputed Islands:

"Japan has not ruled out stationing government officials on islands at the center of
a territorial dispute with China, the top cabinet secretary said Tuesday, as a fleet of
Chinese patrol ships entered disputed waters amid tensions in the year-old
maritime standoff."

See:

http://ebird.osd.mil/ebird2/ebfiles/...911930578.html

================================================== =======


Here Comes China’s Drone Patrols:

"On most days, the Japan Self-Defense Forces scramble fighters to intercept Chinese
military aircraft patrolling through what Tokyo terms its Air Defense Identification Zone,
or ADIZ. But it’s not everyday Japanese aircraft intercept a Chinese drone.

That’s exactly what happened this week.

On Monday, Japan detected an unidentified drone flying southeast off the coast of
Zhejiang, before circling the skies approximately 100 miles north of the disputed
Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands and then heading back in the direction of China. An unknown
number of JASDF interceptors were scrambled against the interloper.

It’s the first known occasion when a land-based Chinese drone has approached the
Japanese ADIZ. From the photo of the drone released by the Japanese Ministry of
Defense, it would appear to be a BZK-005 medium-altitude, long-endurance Unmanned
Aerial Vehicle, or UAV."

See:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/a4534a6f9be

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

Here Comes China’s Drone Patrols:

"On most days, the Japan Self-Defense Forces scramble fighters to intercept Chinese
military aircraft patrolling through what Tokyo terms its Air Defense Identification Zone,
or ADIZ. But it’s not everyday Japanese aircraft intercept a Chinese drone.

That’s exactly what happened this week.

On Monday, Japan detected an unidentified drone flying southeast off the coast of
Zhejiang, before circling the skies approximately 100 miles north of the disputed
Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands and then heading back in the direction of China. An unknown
number of JASDF interceptors were scrambled against the interloper.

It’s the first known occasion when a land-based Chinese drone has approached the
Japanese ADIZ. From the photo of the drone released by the Japanese Ministry of
Defense, it would appear to be a BZK-005 medium-altitude, long-endurance Unmanned
Aerial Vehicle, or UAV."

See:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/a4534a6f9be

Don't the Japanese have their own UAVs?

[Yu Ominae]

They're already getting them for the JGSDF.

http://www.army-technology.com/news/...insitu-pacific

The TRDI's doing/done with research on indigenous VTOLs.

Here's a list of known UAVs, but most of them are known for observation/recon status and are mostly obsolete. I believe they bought some 'cause they needed better ones.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

Here Comes China’s Drone Patrols:

"On most days, the Japan Self-Defense Forces scramble fighters to intercept Chinese
military aircraft patrolling through what Tokyo terms its Air Defense Identification Zone,
or ADIZ. But it’s not everyday Japanese aircraft intercept a Chinese drone.

That’s exactly what happened this week.

On Monday, Japan detected an unidentified drone flying southeast off the coast of
Zhejiang, before circling the skies approximately 100 miles north of the disputed
Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands and then heading back in the direction of China. An unknown
number of JASDF interceptors were scrambled against the interloper.

It’s the first known occasion when a land-based Chinese drone has approached the
Japanese ADIZ. From the photo of the drone released by the Japanese Ministry of
Defense, it would appear to be a BZK-005 medium-altitude, long-endurance Unmanned
Aerial Vehicle, or UAV."

See:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/a4534a6f9be

I wonder what are the rules of engagement and regulations on belligerency when it comes to drones. Unless China wants to sue for destruction of property (as if that means going anywhere... ), I'm not sure why the JASDF can't shoot those down as a target practice on non-living targets or just push them down into the sea, either way after a positive ID. Then the Japanese coast guard could go in to recover what's left of the drones.

For the record, the US also lost drones after being shot down in enemy territory, namely Serbia, Iraq and allegedly Iran.

[ArchmageXin]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

I wonder what are the rules of engagement and regulations on belligerency when it comes to drones. Unless China wants to sue for destruction of property (as if that means going anywhere... ), I'm not sure why the JASDF can't shoot those down as a target practice on non-living targets or just push them down into the sea, either way after a positive ID. Then the Japanese coast guard could go in to recover what's left of the drones.

For the record, the US also lost drones after being shot down in enemy territory, namely Serbia, Iraq and allegedly Iran.

Didn't America claimed hacking was an act of war? (Before getting Snow-trolled) So destruction of a drone ought be an act of war as well. It is only depend on how the stronger party rolls on it~

[EscapeReality]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/25/world/...and-explainer/

In short, China has established an Air Defense Identification Zone, which covers the Diaoyu (or Senkaku) islands. Basically, any flights entering this zone have to report to Chinese authorities and to answer inquiries. There's been a lot of domestic Chinese support, but international reaction (especially Japanese) is...shall we say, less than positive (U.S., Korea, and Japan have said that they would disregard)

From what I heard, the establishment of these zones isn't regulated by international law, and both Japan and U.S. have created their own zones (Japan has expanded its a few times in the past).

I don't think it's unjustified for China to set up its ADIZ. One protest against China's policy is that China intends doesn't "distinguish between aircraft flying through the zone with no intention of flying into China's airspace and those that do".

I have a question: How does a country even tell whether an aircraft is "intending" or "not intending" to enter its airspace? You just trust the word of the operator (that seems to leave a lot of room for abuse and seems to defeat the purpose of extending the ADIZ beyond national airspace)?

I agree it wasn't the smartest move, since this will probably raise the risk of war to even higher levels. Yet I feel that the Chinese have the justification to do something that other countries have done with freedom.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by EscapeReality

I have a question: How does a country even tell whether an aircraft is "intending" or "not intending" to enter its airspace? You just trust the word of the operator (that seems to leave a lot of room for abuse and seems to defeat the purpose of extending the ADIZ beyond national airspace)?

It's for the country in question to decide. That's why the neighboring countries are against this: It leaves a lot of potential for abuse.

[AnimeFan188]

South Korea declares expanded ADIZ that overlaps with China and Japan

See:

http://alert5.com/2013/12/08/south-k...ina-and-japan/

&

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9B703M20131208


=================================================


Foreign Entanglements: The ADIZ

See:

http://www.informationdissemination....ents-adiz.html


=================================================


China ships sail through disputed waters as tensions simmer

See:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Ch...immer_999.html


=================================================


As Japan and China clash, their diplomats see little chance to talk it out

See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...6b2_story.html


=================================================


Impending Japan-China war has the makings of a Clancy classic

See:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/201.../#.UqUwN-JMp1q

[Ithekro]

Are they projecting that this will escalate into war? Or will they do what they did last time (1970s) and walk away to let some other generation deal with it.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by EscapeReality

I have a question: How does a country even tell whether an aircraft is "intending" or "not intending" to enter its airspace? You just trust the word of the operator (that seems to leave a lot of room for abuse and seems to defeat the purpose of extending the ADIZ beyond national airspace)?

It's a matter of easier and faster to track suspicious aircraft that had entered the sovereign airspace, if most aircrafts abide by the ADIZ.

So for example, if 50 aircrafts enters the sovereign airspace, and 45 of them notified the country beforehand while in ADIZ, then you only need to keep track of the 5 suspicious aircrafts, instead of all 50.

If most aircrafts do NOT abide by the ADIZ, then it's pointless.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Are they projecting that this will escalate into war? Or will they do what they did last time (1970s) and walk away to let some other generation deal with it.

Projecting that China actually shoots down a Japan airliner is a bit pushing it...

Unless they want a repeat of KAL 007 incident

[EscapeReality]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

It's a matter of easier and faster to track suspicious aircraft that had entered the sovereign airspace, if most aircrafts abide by the ADIZ.

So for example, if 50 aircrafts enters the sovereign airspace, and 45 of them notified the country beforehand while in ADIZ, then you only need to keep track of the 5 suspicious aircrafts, instead of all 50.

If most aircrafts do NOT abide by the ADIZ, then it's pointless.

The protests against China is that she will apply her procedures to every plane that enters her ADIZ, regardless of whether that plane intends to enter her national airspace. Don't you have to interrogate every plane anyway? To find out whether it's intending to enter national airspace?

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by EscapeReality

The protests against China is that she will apply her procedures to every plane that enters her ADIZ, regardless of whether that plane intends to enter her national airspace. Don't you have to interrogate every plane anyway? To find out whether it's intending to enter national airspace?

For US and Japanese ADIZ, for example, those not intended to enter do not have to notify the country while in ADIZ. Like you said, a real spy plane would probably just lie when interrogated. But it would be easier to track such suspicious aircraft once it entered the sovereign airspace when you already rule out the normal ones while they were in ADIZ and had already handed over their flight paths.

[Rokumonsen]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

It's a matter of easier and faster to track suspicious aircraft that had entered the sovereign airspace, if most aircrafts abide by the ADIZ.

So for example, if 50 aircrafts enters the sovereign airspace, and 45 of them notified the country beforehand while in ADIZ, then you only need to keep track of the 5 suspicious aircrafts, instead of all 50.

If most aircrafts do NOT abide by the ADIZ, then it's pointless.

There's this speculation that the ADIZ in the ECS is just a test of implementing a no-fly zone in the SCS, which we know as another disputed territory. Just imagine Vietnam and the Philippines' reaction when it do happen. It'll escalate the tension there and a possibility that the Code of Conduct agreement (which China wanted to be implemented) will be scrapped.

[AnimeFan188]

China “Planned To Claim Kyushu Air Space”:

"It has emerged China’s newly expanded aerial kill zone was almost extended all
the way up to the coast of the Japanese mainland – even as China announces
successful tests of the world’s first “carrier killer” anti-ship ballistic missile.

According to Asahi, hard-line generals and military reseach institutes in China were
pushing for an ADIZ extending out hundreds of kilometres from China’s EEZ,
encompassing not only the Senkaku Islands but also extending up to the coast of
Kyushu."

See:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/0...shu-air-space/

[Ithekro]

So how easily can we shoot down these "carrier-killer" missiles? That will deturmine how seriously we take any Chinese territorial claims.

[LeoXiao]

According to a guy I know who deals with these kinds of things, actually hitting a warship with a ballistic missile is still incredibly difficult. He doesn't think the Chinese have this capability yet.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

According to a guy I know who deals with these kinds of things, actually hitting a warship with a ballistic missile is still incredibly difficult. He doesn't think the Chinese have this capability yet.

There's at least 2 big questions we don't know about those missiles, what kind of warhead they are planning to use, how are they going to guide them.

[Ithekro]

It was a Mach 5 missile if I remember correctly. How you hit a 330 meter long target that can move faster than 30 knots that also has anti-missile defenes of its own, plus usually a task force and its own airplanes...that I don't know.