What is the point of fansubbing?

[ScR3WiEuS]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Wrong. Sorry, I have to disagree, those times are gone. As long as the perceived quality of a later release is deemed higher, and as long as the time difference between the releases isn't too big, it's not uncommon to have later releases net much higher download numbers.

B~S~
your comment is only true under circumstances such as:

1) the "time difference" is a couple of minutes ( ok, ok, perhaps an hour or two )

2) the speedsub group in question sucks at distro

3) since most leechers can't recognize quality even if it raped their asses with a roll of sandpaper, a difference in quality would only noticeable if there were something seriously wrong with the subs ( e.g. they're not there, they're in french, etc. ), or if the karaoke was bad. what matters more is both groups' reputation. if one group was generally acknowledged to be crap ( very rare, but it does happen ), then perhaps it would get overlooked even by impatient leechers. this is speaking from the perspective of ignorant leechers btw, not those that actually care about quality, and sadly form a minority.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Dark Shikari

A great success story is Galactic Civilizations II, which was intentionally released with absolutely no DRM or even a CD key check; it was a bestseller and has been wildly popular in the genre ever since despite the complete lack of copy protection.

Another example would be the newly released Sins of a Solar Empire (from the same developer I think) that also lacks any form of DRM, is distributed digitally and still is selling pretty well from what I can see. I bought it myself for two reasons: I want to play multiplayer (even though you can still do that with the pirated version using Hamachi), and because I want to support game devs that are sensible enough to release games without DRM.

My first reason is kinda similar to buying official releases because you want the extras; the second would be the same for a DRM-free anime direct download service.

In conclusion, I agree completely with Mentar.

[blakbunnie27]

Why don't the industry guys just hire us fansubbers for minimum wage on supplying them w/ script and what not? That's like a win-win situation for fansubbers and industry, except maybe not for fans which would then degrade the name "fansubbers."

[cyth]

Why not just hire people with a clean slate? <_<

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS

B~S~
your comment is only true under circumstances such as:

1) the "time difference" is a couple of minutes ( ok, ok, perhaps an hour or two )

2) the speedsub group in question sucks at distro

3) since most leechers can't recognize quality even if it raped their asses with a roll of sandpaper, a difference in quality would only noticeable if there were something seriously wrong with the subs ( e.g. they're not there, they're in french, etc. ), or if the karaoke was bad. what matters more is both groups' reputation. if one group was generally acknowledged to be crap ( very rare, but it does happen ), then perhaps it would get overlooked even by impatient leechers. this is speaking from the perspective of ignorant leechers btw, not those that actually care about quality, and sadly form a minority.

Naah, no B~S~. I don't want this thread to devolve in what I fear to become E-pen*s contests, so I'll only point out the animes in question - everyone truly interested can easily verify the numbers himself, or request them from me via PM.

Rental Magica - we consistently release ~6h past a very large and well-known group with excellent distro, and against a release which I consider perfectly hi-quality. After a few days we usually end up with ~50% more downloads, gap widening the more weeks are added.

Clannad - here we're usually between 6h and 12h later than our main competition, and end up with usually around 200% more downloads. Distro is no issue, and IMHO the release is also perfectly hi-quality too.

Shana Second - release dates fluctuate wildly, sometimes we lead, but we also had instances in which we released 36h past our competition. Nevertheless, we usually ended up with high margins aswell.

And I'm certain that if I took the time to go through the various releases, I'd find several more examples. Those three were from my own firsthand knowledge. My own interpretation is that many people download first releases _too_ to scratch the immediate itch, but when they decided to "collect" other releases which come out later, they download one more time. Compared to earlier, it's usually an issue of only a few minutes to get an anime episode, rather than the hours of old.

[blakbunnie27]

Originally Posted by Toua

Why not just hire people with a clean slate? <_<

Clean slate? What's that? I'm sure NOBODY in this world who's in the labor force has a clean slate. Anyways, it's experience that counts, and if you can hire them for cheap, even better. After all, even minimum wage is more than free, and it'll be like a second part-time job. Although I doubt I'll work for industry people to tl anime.

[juggen]

Mentar, can't Eclipse be considered a speed-sub group though? Even though quality is still high, since u release within a day.
I seriously doubt the same thing goes for 1ep/week fansub groups. I think a reason is different time-zones too, since downloads will be good for about a day, then it will decline.
And "leechers" only wait for Eclipse since they know u will be consistent imo.


btw, I haven't changed my habits conserning buying stuff since I started pirating (atleast not much). I just play more games and watch a lot more movies etc.
It's not like I would buy all the CDs/Movies/Anime boxes if I couldn't get them for free. I'd just have to be satisfied with a few, and like... start having more of a real life... hell that sounded pretty good =/

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by juggen

Even though quality is still high, since u release within a day.

No we don't, not anymore. It still happens, but the past two seasons or so we haven't been doing it consistently at all. At one point we were like 4 weeks behind on Hayate no Gotoku (we're still two eps behind right now).

[juggen]

Okay, I thought that was your policy in "the past" atleast =)

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by juggen

Okay, I thought that was your policy in "the past" atleast =)

It has kinda been a thing to aim for (and still is I guess, but we've been kinda overworked lately) but even during the F/SN days I don't think we pulled it off consistently for every single episode.

This thread isn't about Eclipse though, the point was that this:

Originally Posted by juggen

And "leechers" only wait for Eclipse since they know u will be consistent imo.

actually happens; Screw's assertation that the first sub gets the most downloads isn't true.

[juggen]

Same with Bleach for example, while Rumbel-Flomp might be faster few times, DB will ALWAYS have more downloads, even though DB imo literary suck ass.
Their fanboi-squad is huge.

Though for certain, people didn't wait for sudo's Genshiken 2 that usually came out 1 week later than DB.
Animanda's subs for Death Note, and took Kuro-Hana's instead.
And most people surely already got ayako's Minami-ke etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

It has kinda been a thing to aim for (and still is I guess, but we've been kinda overworked lately) but even during the F/SN days I don't think we pulled it off consistently for every single episode.

This thread isn't about Eclipse though, the point was that this:

actually happens; Screw's assertation that the first sub gets the most downloads isn't true.

My original comment was "almost always gets the most downloads" which we all know is still true. Let's stop arguing semantics.

-Tofu

[cyth]

@Mentar: Eclipse gets higher numbers because it's an established name, isn't lagging too far behind the competition, it's known for quality releases, and it has good distro. Your group is an exception, not a rule. Also:

1.) CLANNAD distro of the first speedsubbing group sucks. I remember one of your own guys mentioning this.
2.) Have you forgotten that people usually like to download two versions of the same episode, the latter being for archiving purposes?

Speedsubs > quality subs in numbers, nothing will change that, so ultimately bayoab is right here. Let's not throw around random facts just for the sake of being right.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Toua

@Mentar: Eclipse gets higher numbers because it's an established name, isn't lagging too far behind the competition, it's known for quality releases, and it has good distro. Your group is an exception, not a rule. Also:

1.) CLANNAD distro of the first speedsubbing group sucks. I remember one of your own guys mentioning this.
2.) Have you forgotten that people usually like to download two versions of the same episode, the latter being for archiving purposes?

Speedsubs > quality subs in numbers, nothing will change that, so ultimately bayoab is right here. Let's not throw around random facts just for the sake of being right.

His point in this bigger debate still holds true though; even if speedsubbers could be faster than official subs, the "established name", good distro and quality releases of official subs would most likely mean that a digital distribution scheme could be a viable competition for fansubs. It'd just have to convenient to use; as I think I mentioned earlier, laziness plays a very big role these days.

[cyth]

Certainly, I was arguing the same thing just a few posts ago. o.0

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

OBJECTION! *Insert Phoenix Wright pic here*

People viewing the file and not paying for it do not, I repeat, do not represent lost costumers. That's a logical fallacy that's been exploited to death by the RIAA and it's just not true. See below for a perfect example.

OBJECTION! *Insert Apollo Justice pic here*
That did not say that if 20% pirate it those are all lost sales. That was the question of "If a sizable number of people are leeching off your service (to the point that you are making only a small profit), what motivation do you have to run it." Example: If 20% of the people watched Jetstream rips off torrents, those are all lost ad revenue since they don't count on the site counter and they don't watch the ads. Just like everyone who doesn't view "The Daily Show" on the official sites takes away money from those who earn royalties.

Originally Posted by Dark Shikari

One thing people don't realize is that the vast majority of the world does not have the money to pay for games and anime like we do.

Along that same note, Japan's prices are twice the US. A certain group of people basically does the same thing to Japanese stuff.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Earth to bayoab: Piracy ALWAYS exists*. The point is EXACTLY to make these "few bucks".

My point was that studios have the keys in their hands to win on quality, speed and convenience, and on this basis could compete with fansubs just fine, even against the "fansubs are free" disadvantage. But they opt not to do so. Because they fear piracy. Which is kinda silly, because piracy already exists in the first place. But alas.

Of course piracy always exists for general goods. But you have to either minimize piracy or use it to your advantage and profit off of it. You can't just leave it unchecked assuming it will police itself like a certain industry has been doing.

I agree that the studios could beat fansubbers. However, the solution is nowhere as simple as some people make it out to be. (Note: 0-day worldwide streaming is impossible.)

*This is actually false. There are very specialized things out there which are impossible to find pirated.

You know, debating with you is kinda tiring. This was never the subject of the discussion to begin with, and I never ever claimed that they no longer exist. I pointed out to Tofusensei that it's no longer a given that the first release gets the most hits - because these times are no more. I can easily supply numbers to refute this claim.

Sorry, brainfart on the speedsub line. And yes, my response was the AJ rule isn't false across the board and specifics matter since I knew you would use Eclipse as an example. Those who rush to first only do it when there is a demand (i.e. downloads). This is one you can actually tell who is a fan and who is doing it for fame. (From what I recall, AJ was also beating every group by a couple of days.)

Originally Posted by Mentar

Clannad - here we're usually between 6h and 12h later than our main competition, and end up with usually around 200% more downloads. Distro is no issue, and IMHO the release is also perfectly hi-quality too.

I actually had this in my post originally with the question of "What would happen if you released 2 days later?". This is why the specifics matter. With a <12 hour difference, everyone will wait for their preferred group. However with more than a day speed matters more: Gundam 00 (nyoro~n gets more), Lucky Star (guerrand got more), Rosario + Vampire (AnimeSS gets more). (And this is just thinking about examples for a couple minutes.)

Originally Posted by blakbunnie27

Why don't the industry guys just hire us fansubbers for minimum wage on supplying them w/ script and what not? That's like a win-win situation for fansubbers and industry, except maybe not for fans which would then degrade the name "fansubbers."

The Japanese are still rather unwilling for near 0-day streaming overseas.

Originally Posted by juggen

Though for certain, people didn't wait for sudo's Genshiken 2 that usually came out 1 week later than DB.

Sudo was worse than DB in this case.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Of course piracy always exists for general goods. But you have to either minimize piracy or use it to your advantage and profit off of it. You can't just leave it unchecked assuming it will police itself like a certain industry has been doing.

Why not, if it's possible to coexist with it? (It most certainly is.)

Originally Posted by bayoab

(Note: 0-day worldwide streaming is impossible.)

Why? Because the Japanese won't agree to it? That doesn't make it impossible, just not viable right now. People can change their minds, you know.

Originally Posted by bayoab

There are very specialized things out there which are impossible to find pirated.

He said that piracy will always exist, not that absolutely everything ever will be pirated. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by bayoab

The Japanese are still rather unwilling for near 0-day streaming overseas.

And that's the problem, but as stated earlier in the thread this is probably starting to change.

Overall though I think now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing; yes there are problems with the digital distribution model but the ball is in the industry's court right now, and I personally don't think there are any other viable solutions. If you have any you're welcome to present your ideas instead of just saying "no", "impossible" and "wrong" to everything.

[Mentar]

Before we're losing outselves too much in the "you said - I said" kind of debates, a quick summary of my points, so that we can agree to disagree

Theorem 1)
Anime studios have several intrinsic advantages over fansubbers, which in my opinion they COULD put to use in order to be competitive even against the "zero cost" fansubbers: Access to the original material, due to that much higher quality of the source material to use, and the full control over the release date. Putting these advantages to proper use WOULD enable them to offer a service which would be interesting enough to see significant commercial use, and which could grow over time.

Theorem 2)
The anime studios don't pursue these new options for reasons unknown. However, it's logical to assume that they mostly revolve around the fear that by "opening up" more, they would be more susceptible to piracy, cutting in their profits they would retain if they do NOT offer new distribution methods.

Theorem 3)
Personally, I'm doubtful that the fear of piracy is the best way to deal with the issue. Fact is that every semi-competent user can download basically everything off japanese p2p networks to begin with. It's safe to assume that you can get everything up to DVD images within 1-2 days after release, and everyone who wishes to take these sources without paying factually can already do so. Therefore, piracy in itself can not be a logical defense for conservative inflexibility, it can only be an INCREASE in piracy to a bigger amount than a new distribution model might generate in EXTRA revenues.

Theorem 4)
The trend in the lead entertainment industry clearly goes towards "Download to keep" models where a customer can pay a (usually fairly low) cover fee and receive original high-quality media files without DRM to keep and to use freely. In 1-2 years this model will have become the default for music, and probably also for major parts of the movie industry. I believe that japanese animation studios will eventually follow suit. However, there is probably no management less flexible and adventurous than Japanese management.

Personally, my wish still stands. Someone create some kind of Anime-"Steam". Where you can pay either for subscription models, or for single files. Which allow you to pre-load files, which eventually get unlocked at release date. If the studios were really smart, they might even consider allowing or "supporting" softsubs, signage etc from fansub groups to compete. And they could STILL offer R! DVD releases, for lower licence fees without upfront payment.

Anyway, I guess that's a few years out.

[WanderingKnight]

That did not say that if 20% pirate it those are all lost sales. That was the question of "If a sizable number of people are leeching off your service (to the point that you are making only a small profit), what motivation do you have to run it."

What? That just made no sense. Motivation? The only motivation the people making the product should have is the cold, hard cash filling up their bank accounts. I download illegal copies of PS2 games on a weekly basis. Do you really think I would pay the inflated US prices plus the import rate for every game I've downloaded? People downloading illegal copies of things don't represent lost sales for the most part because most people wouldn't buy it in the first place. If the product makers really feel like whining about piracy, they could try to lower the price. That way, there would be more costumers and the piracy rate would diminish... but that doesn't mean it's going away. There's always people who's gonna pirate stuff simply because it doesn't feel it's worth paying for it. The moment you take piracy away from them is the moment they stop whatever interest they might have had on it. Case in point, myself and plenty of other people in third world countries, and I'm sure there's plenty of people like that in the US, too.

Example: If 20% of the people watched Jetstream rips off torrents, those are all lost ad revenue since they don't count on the site counter and they don't watch the ads. Just like everyone who doesn't view "The Daily Show" on the official sites takes away money from those who earn royalties.

First of all, it's impossible to statistically calculate the amount of people downloading illegal copies of something. Yes, there are trackers, but the internet is immense. Thus, the only way the people doing Jetstream (I don't have a fucking clue what that is) have of knowing how many people watch their show is by the official means. And, guess what, there the piracy rate is 0%, thus, no lost sales. I can also change the channel during commercial breaks. Am I stealing from the content providers there, too?

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by TheFluff

Why not, if it's possible to coexist with it? (It most certainly is.)

Would you mind explaining what you mean by coexist?

Why? Because the Japanese won't agree to it? That doesn't make it impossible, just not viable right now. People can change their minds, you know.

Because fansubbers break every single boundary that exists in Japan. We are not limited by channels. We are not limited by when things air in our area. As long as it airs on TV at the right time and a raw is captured, there can be a fansub. There are no real world restrictions such as the video being finished 1 hour before it supposed to air at the station.

I don't actually know the specifics, but I believe Japan doesn't even get to watch it legally online till a week after the first airing due to regional airing issues.

If you have any you're welcome to present your ideas instead of just saying "no", "impossible" and "wrong" to everything.

I've submitted ideas before (ex. the unlimited subscription streaming site similar to [as]fix). The threads usually go in the direction of either a) the evil DRM monster b) But... but... you want me to pay $50/26 ep series? that's too expensive! or c) It's not HD... I want my upscaled HD! People just whine and complain that it's not what they want so they will just pirate it instead.

(And if it was arguing to argue, I would have argued the "piracy (<=) exists logic.)

Originally Posted by Mentar

Before we're losing outselves too much in the "you said - I said" kind of debates, a quick summary of my points, so that we can agree to disagree

Except that I agree with most of the points here beside a few technical details. (Ex. "full control over the release date" vs "deadlines".)

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

What? That just made no sense. Motivation? The only motivation the people making the product should have is the cold, hard cash filling up their bank accounts.

In anime... cold hard cash?? You don't work in anime to get rich. You work in it because you enjoy it. Just like the fansubbers work spend their time on it because they enjoy it. The same is true with games. Most programmers are not rolling in cash.

First of all, it's impossible to statistically calculate the amount of people downloading illegal copies of something.

Statistics is about calculating estimations to unknown numbers. It is anything but impossible.

Yes, there are trackers, but the internet is immense.

Statistically, the majority of people use only a handful of places.

Thus, the only way the people doing Jetstream (I don't have a fucking clue what that is) have of knowing how many people watch their show is by the official means. And, guess what, there the piracy rate is 0%, thus, no lost sales. I can also change the channel during commercial breaks. Am I stealing from the content providers there, too?

Jetstream is an online streaming service for the Toonami branding (with regional protections). You are forced to load commercials (lock out on the player). It is very easy to determine who is actually watching through the front end and who is not. There is also only one group that rips their stuff publicly so it is very easy to track how many aren't using it.