Magic and Technology of MGLN

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Exact clones of Quint was disputed once, and I don't recall them being exact matches of Quint. What confuddles me (and my crew as well) is the mention that they are similar in genes... but Quint did not mother them biologically.

Who should we believe? Which one is red truth?

Because they (Ginga and Subaru) aren't.

I'm not sure how to explain this without going into too much technobabble, but unless humans start reproducing mitotically (i.e. asexually), there is very rarely -- if any -- chance of one human to be exactly identical to another person. Even monozygotic twins (i.e. identical twins) can retain morphological similarity, yet not genetic identity.

In the course of identification, DNA compatibility between two persons need not be 100% exact to determine whether you're the biological parent/child of another person. In fact, I don't think even our current DNA fingerprinting techniques can reach more than 95% fidelity in identification. Regardless, assuming the accuracy of Midchildan technology to be undisputable, you need only 99.9% compatibility to be considered genetically related to another person.

But, humans are all 99.9% genetically identical! Which is true, unless you are a chimpanzee or an orangutan or something else. The wonder of the human genome in circumventing this problem is that it is large enough that a very minute difference (of less than 0.001%) has a very high discriminating power in distinguishing biological relatives from one another.

I could try explaining this a little more easily if I could draw the ASCII diagram out, but alas, I couldn't get it to work properly.

[MeisterBabylon]

So they aren't clones, and yet they aren't mothered by Quint, which would've caused half their chromosomes to match and another half to not otherwise... How were they made?

[Password]

I'm pretty sure the writers intended them to be clones or something similar. The words Mariel said to Quint were "Your genetic structure is identical to Subaru and Ginga". Not related, identical. And considering how Jail had to use cloning just to give Nove a Wing Road copy... <<

[MeisterBabylon]

That means Quint had two IS? Oo

So it's not Nove getting a different IS, its that she only got half of the goods, while the deadlier IS was lost in the production process, since both Ginga and Subaru have the 2 IS.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

So they aren't clones, and yet they aren't mothered by Quint, which would've caused half their chromosomes to match and another half to not otherwise... How were they made?

The term 'clone' is relative. To be reasonable, a 'clone' is considered one so long as he or she performs relatively similar (note the word used, 'similar' and 'identical' means entirely different things) to the original person. However, the variables are so huge unless they are quarantined to a safe room (i.e. a sterile room) at the exclusion of other random factors.

DNA is not a static entity, even if it's not entirely alive per se. Like cells, they change and mutate over time. So, an absolute correlation cannot be drawn between the original and the clone if random factors are taken in. This is, however, only useful for observation purposes and not practical. To put them outside the safe room and into the world entails the changes that would definitely come with the exposure.

The argument for the issue at hand is whether it's appropriate to consider Subaru, Ginga, and Nove as Quint's clones. In Quint's case, Subaru and Ginga could be called her 'clones' based on the fact that their DNA compatibilities are highly similar and that they function relatively normal like their original counterpart (no loss of half an eye, muscular dystrophy, missing an arm or a leg, etc.). It is erroneous to consider them 'exact' (100%) copies of Quint, simply because they aren't. If they are, then that would mean that they cannot be cyborgs because Quint wasn't one. That is to say, Subaru and Ginga (and Nove) are Quint's 'clones', but they are not 'exact' copies of her in the sense that part of genome had to be modified to accommodate the changes for cybernetic implants.

If you need a clearer distinction, think of it this way: the Stormtroopers in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones are the clones in the best absolute meaning. Subaru, Ginga, and Nove are only functional clones of Quint just as Fate is a functional clone of Alicia.

~~~~

Funny that you'd ask me how they were made, Kha.

The basic concept of cloning is similar to in vitro fertilization, with a few extra steps prior. You first procure the desired piece of DNA (or the entire genome, if you like) and increase the amount (and perhaps even engineer it) through molecular biology techniques. Once done, you get the embryonic cells compatible for growth (i.e. if you're going to clone humans, the best embryonic cells would be the inseminated egg from humans and not from rabbits, for example), void the nuclei of the cells, and insert the external DNA into the cells. Once done, the embryonic cell is usually placed in a surrogate mother (or, in Jail's case, a highly doubtful technique in liquid culture) awaiting normal pregnancy and finally birth.

[Password]

Ah, point. Forgot that some additionaly tampering had to be made in order to make cyborg bodies compatible to cybernetic stuff. <<

Hm... I forget, were Subaru and Ginga created by Jail specifically, or someone else? I'm wondering if maybe, instead of Subaru's Vibration Shatter coming directly from Quint, it was another extra something the scientists accidentally or intentionally added to the mix.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Password

Ah, point. Forgot that some additionaly tampering had to be made in order to make cyborg bodies compatible to cybernetic stuff. <<

Hm... I forget, were Subaru and Ginga created by Jail specifically, or someone else? I'm wondering if maybe, instead of Subaru's Vibration Shatter coming directly from Quint, it was another extra something the scientists accidentally or intentionally added to the mix.

They aren't. Subaru and Ginga are Type-Zeros, the prototypes of Combat Cyborgs that weren't in production line with the other Numbers. And, as far as I know, Jail wasn't the first person who completed the first Combat Cyborg(s), which also possibly mean that Quint's DNA had somehow been taken before her encounter with the Numbers alongside Megane and Zest.

Now, if those scientists were to introduce new elements into the entire process by accident or intention, this would further prove that Subaru and Ginga are farther from the 'exact' copy of Quint issue, isn't it?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Her DNA was taken prior to that encounter though.

Remember, they were FOUND by Quint Nakajima... and she was later told they had her DNA. So she adopted them as her Daughters.

Then later Zest's totally screwed up Raid occured.



So the most likely place to look for where her DNA got yanked would be medical records. The TSAB has some serious medical tech. DNA records are probably common.

[al103]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Remember, they were FOUND by Quint Nakajima... and she was later told they had her DNA. So she adopted them as her Daughters.

It's other way around. They were adopted and then it was found. She didn't adopted them because they are her clones.

[Dark Wing]

Okay so the latest chapter of the Nanoha 1st movie manga has reviled how familiars are created.

step 1. Find a random animal

step 2. Feed you magical energy into said animal turning it into a familiar

step 3. Make a binding contract with familiar (contract time may very)

step 4. When the contract is complete familiar disappears

so any thoughts on this?

[hideki101]

What were the contract terms that Fate put on Arf? It seems that Arf is still sticking around, could the contracts be open-ended?

[Nijiru]

From Nagumo's Sound Stage translations: Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha SOUND STAGE 02 Track 09.

Spoiler:

Fate: I’ve thought up the contents of our contract, will you hear it?...

Thou, familiar Arf… Your Master Fate, from this contract, agrees and understands to comply without exceeding or rebuffing the contents, to the agreed terms and conditions thusly. Thy flesh/body and spirit/soul thou possess, is free to pursue thy personal wishes and way of life to thy satisfaction. Even if those desires conflict with thy Master’s, or take thee to lands far from thy Master. Thus thy Master pledges to fulfill this contract until the end of thy Master’s life.

The reason I made Arf, my familiar is because I didn’t want her to die. So, it doesn’t matter afterwards, if you, Arf, want to leave me or want to go somewhere else. I won’t resent or use you if you want to live your life as a free wolf. But I would be happy if you would stay by my side like you have done now and do all sorts of things. Because with Arf, everything and anything seems so much better/exciting and because she’s so kind. You and I might not be friends or sisters but I think to myself, we would be great/the best partners ever.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by hideki101

What were the contract terms that Fate put on Arf? It seems that Arf is still sticking around, could the contracts be open-ended?

basically it was for life like Nijiru said...so long as Fate lives so dose Arf also she is granted her own free will to go where ever she want do as she please.

[Tabasco]

Sounds about right.

Interesting preview of her personality though, not too many kids would make a contract as open ended as that.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Yes, they can do rough measurements. And those are based on the rank tests.

These conversation started primarily because of Precia's rank, so we're not using it in the context of a particular shot. We're using it in the context of "How did Precia get her rank and how does that relate to her power?" I believe it was specifically stated that she was SS+ at her last test, but it's lapsed because it's been so long. So the context is in this case is directly referring to the fact that she is strong enough to pass an SS rank test (or was at one time).

It makes sense, as we have such qualifications in the real world. I may not have a driver's license, but I know how to drive. You can watch me and get a measurement of my capabilities. But I'd need to get an official driver's license, and have it renewed every 4-5 years. If I didn't, it would lapse.

Ranks are both of those, that's why they are so damn confusing.

There is a rank above sheer strength, and a rank about efficiency- which, at lower levels, is done through tests (higher levels i guess would be akin to handing in a thesis).

When you look at descriptions of spells for example, there is ranks for cast time, speed of the spell, how much control you have over the vector of the spell, and the pure power in it. As well as specifications about 'secondary effects' like total seal break or electricity and so on.

Hayate is SS because of her power and the fact she is in control of the book of the night sky- she can't be anything else, as someone of her abilities can't be ranked lower.

Then there are the tests: there are two kind of tests, the ones about 'mage tests', and the ones about 'TSAB armed-force Test'. Normal test are control, theory, and some minimal battling abilities.

The one about the armed force, you see in StrikerS.

Edit: moved that here

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Ranks are both of those, that's why they are so damn confusing.

There is a rank above sheer strength, and a rank about efficiency- which, at lower levels, is done through tests (higher levels i guess would be akin to handing in a thesis).

When you look at descriptions of spells for example, there is ranks for cast time, speed of the spell, how much control you have over the vector of the spell, and the pure power in it. As well as specifications about 'secondary effects' like total seal break or electricity and so on.

Hayate is SS because of her power and the fact she is in control of the book of the night sky- she can't be anything else, as someone of her abilities can't be ranked lower.

Then there are the tests: there are two kind of tests, the ones about 'mage tests', and the ones about 'TSAB armed-force Test'. Normal test are control, theory, and some minimal battling abilities.

The one about the armed force, you see in StrikerS.

Edit: moved that here

Yeah, it's important to make some distinctions between Mage Rank, and spell rank. They are independent of each other, as Teana (a rank B mage) was able to use a Rank AA skill(Variable Barret, that Vice was also able to use and he's lower). That's why you can't really rely on the measurement of a shot strength to determine a Mage Rank.

Think of it as Kilometers to measure distance and Kilograms to measure weight. Only in this case, they are using the term "rank" for both, which does help confuse.

Which means you're trying to quantify a mage, a rough guess is the best you can do. You can measure individual spell strength, but the overall measure of a mage is their rank, which must be tested to know for sure.

It's easiest to look at it, if you think back to the beginning. Two mages, Joe and Bob, are trying to determine who is strongest. They have a match set with rules, and Joe clearly comes out the victor. They decide to call Joe "A" rank and Bob "B" rank. Along comes Alice, who can also beat Bob, but loses to Joe. So now we have Joe as A, Alice as B, and Bob as C.

As time went on, they diversified ranks a bit more, but overall, it was a way to tell how strong a mage was overall, when compared to another mage. Mages kept getting stronger, so they went to AA, then AAA, then S and SS.

This is just how I look at it. It's sorta like an IQ test in a way; you're being compared to your peers.

And spell ranks are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

[MeisterBabylon]

The Gallians in Nanohaverse need to convene with the rest of the multiverse to work out a proper SI unit system that would at least make a bit more sense rather than break down once we start analyzing it!

[itanshi1]

http://www.news.com.au/technology/bo...-1225852806454

Fabric armor anyone? Just thought I give this topic a boost with added new SCIENCE

[Mushi]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

http://www.news.com.au/technology/bo...-1225852806454

Fabric armor anyone? Just thought I give this topic a boost with added new SCIENCE

LOL at the first comment on that page. "OK - but can it make you fly?"

It's rather hard to image a T shirt stopping a bullet. The bullet may not penetrate the material, but the force of the impact is still going to get absorbed by what's under the material.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Mushi

LOL at the first comment on that page. "OK - but can it make you fly?"

It's rather hard to image a T shirt stopping a bullet. The bullet may not penetrate the material, but the force of the impact is still going to get absorbed by what's under the material.

Which is no different from kevlar vests, which still makes it a pretty good achievement in itself.