Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[maximilianjenus]

Sicen the gaap demon is supossed to have a male body, gaap = kanon ; that also fits with the shannon = beatrice theory, because if shannon survives the first twilight we get to see human beatrice.

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

Sicen the gaap demon is supossed to have a male body, gaap = kanon ; that also fits with the shannon = beatrice theory, because if shannon survives the first twilight we get to see human beatrice.

I have no idea what this says

[~Ayane~]

Kanon has rather girly body...

[Luna Amatista]

Originally Posted by TsundereCake

I have no idea what this says

So what would be ideal would be for the maximilianjenus to reply, but I will say what I understood.

According to The Lesser Key of Solomon, Gäap is a mighty Prince and Great President of Hell, who commands sixty-six legions of demons.
(Taken from Wikipedia much?)

So, the original Gaap is male.

Thus, according to maximilianjenus, if we want to relate magic characters to those on the real world, and you want Shannon:Beatrice, you can take the original male concept of the demon Gaap to make it be Kanon:Gaap.


...I think.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Well keep in mind that most of the demons who the stakes represent are also supposed to be male, but we've got scantily-clad stake girls instead. Not saying this theory is wrong, but it might not necessarily mean anything just because we've got a female interpretation of Gaap, too.

[Crontica]

This is making my head hurt.. So are you trying to say Battler = Kinzo? Because they way the wear the cape is Mind-trollingly similar.

[Uchiha Soul]

Why is everyone said the George is a badass .. for me he is so damn smart, and people with this personality are the ones other people must aware of them .. his calmness and steadiness give him the time to study everything around him, so we can say that he had the time to think about the epitaph since it was there for 6 years or less (not sure). And we should never forget about his eyes, he has these swindler and deceiver eyes, if you don’t know him, you will probably think he is just a sensitive guy who spoiled by his mom and being in love with a servant but actually he used them to trick the people and make them think about him as he wants them to do. I can say that he got these characteristics from his father (Hideyoshi), we saw Hideyoshi in the previous eps how he was so comfortable discussing the family legacy with them despite he is not one of the siblings .. he can use his personality to make the whole conversation without any one being mad of his interfering.

About what Ange saw .. if we supposed she saw Sakutaro we can analyzing it in these possible ways:
1- Sakutaro is not made by Rosa .. it’s a market product.
2- Rosa made more than one Sakutaro .. maybe she did the second one after she tore the first one but didn’t give it to Maria.
3- Beatrice is a liar.. Sakutaro can be revived.

But to think about what Sakutaro did in this man's boat .. I assume he found it after the incidents.. maybe found it on the beach or somewhere else .. bcoz I don’t think he is the one who took them to the Island. So either he found it or he went to the Island at least one time after the incident by his own or he had some relations with Rosa!

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul

But to think about what Sakutaro did in this man's boat .. I assume he found it after the incidents.. maybe found it on the beach or somewhere else .. bcoz I don’t think he is the one who took them to the Island. So either he found it or he went to the Island at least one time after the incident by his own or he had some relations with Rosa!

I don't have such a complex idea like the captain having some relations with Rosa.

My guess is that Rosa was remaking Sakutarou for Maria (option 2), but she did not finish it yet (the neckerchief was not made yet, at least it was what implied in SN), and because she knew that she probably had no time to finish all while being in the family meeting, she left the Sakutarou without neckerchief in captain's hut, telling him to keep it until she went back. She planned to finish it right after they got back to the main island.

The reason why she did not carry it to Rokkenjima was because she wanted to make it a surprise gift for Maria.

Of course, she never made it as she perished during the family meeting.

Maria and Beatrice did not know about it, obviously from the scene inside the golden land.

[Jan-Poo]

so we can say that he had the time to think about the epitaph since it was there for 6 years or less (not sure)

The epitaph has been shown in 1984, so 2 years at max unless there's something we don't know.

(the neckerchief was not made yet, at least it was what implied in SN)

I think that the neckerchief was just Maria's idea, it wasn't part of the original design.

[Uchiha Soul]

Originally Posted by ijriims

I don't have such a complex idea like the captain having some relations with Rosa.

My guess is that Rosa was remaking Sakutarou for Maria (option 2), but she did not finish it yet (the neckerchief was not made yet, at least it was what implied in SN), and because she knew that she probably had no time to finish all while being in the family meeting, she left the Sakutarou without neckerchief in captain's hut, telling him to keep it until she went back. She planned to finish it right after they got back to the main island.

The reason why she did not carry it to Rokkenjima was because she wanted to make it a surprise gift for Maria.

Of course, she never made it as she perished during the family meeting.

Maria and Beatrice did not know about it, obviously from the scene inside the golden land.

This Anime is just keeping surprises us every ep .. we cant be sure about anything, we just putting a speculations and theories .. so we don’t know exactly how Sakutaro reached the boat, nor the relationship between the man and the family .. he seemed to me that he knew and cared about them more than just a regular sailor (imo). if you said that Rosa left Sakutaro there bcoz she didnt finish it and she wanna surprise her daughter after the meeting, I think this means she knows the man and trusts him, that is why she chose to let her present with him coz i dont think Rosa's personality is to put her stuff with a regular stranger sailor.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The epitaph has been shown in 1984, so 2 years at max unless there's something we don't know.

Well 2 years is enough to think and solve the puzzle or at least put theories for smart people like George.

I just wanna know the flash back between Maria and Ange on the Island when Ange said that Sakutaro is just a stuffed animal .. did they mentioned which year this happened?! and also, is this the only time Ange visited the Island?

I think Ange and Battler never being together on the meeting .. I mean they never went as a whole family (Rudolf family) right?

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul

This Anime is just keeping surprises us every ep .. we cant be sure about anything, we just putting a speculations and theories .. so we don’t know exactly how Sakutaro reached the boat, nor the relationship between the man and the family .. he seemed to me that he knew and cared about them more than just a regular sailor (imo). if you said that Rosa left Sakutaro there bcoz she didnt finish it and she wanna surprise her daughter after the meeting, I think this means she knows the man and trusts him, that is why she chose to let her present with him coz i dont think Rosa's personality is to put her stuff with a regular stranger sailor.



Well 2 years is enough to think and solve the puzzle or at least put theories for smart people like George.

I just wanna know the flash back between Maria and Ange on the Island when Ange said that Sakutaro is just a stuffed animal .. did they mentioned which year this happened?! and also, is this the only time Ange visited the Island?

I think Ange and Battler never being together on the meeting .. I mean they never went as a whole family (Rudolf family) right?

The sailor is a family acquaintance. He's always sailed everyone back and forth from the family conference, which was a detail made clear in EP1 of the SN.

Ange has gone to the family conference multiple times before, and probably interacted with Maria at least twice.

Battler ran out on his family about 6 years ago, so yeah, he has never been there with Ange.

[ijriims]

The captain had been serving Ushiromiya family for a very long time.

During Rosa' childhood, when she was still living on Rokkenjima, she had to take the ship to go to main island for school through that captain's ship. It was fair to say Rosa had known this captain for her lifetime and there was little reason to say that she wouldn't trust him. (It could also be said that this captain had seen Rosa's growth from her childhood, he was already an adult when Rosa was born)In fact, the whole Ushiromiya family just trusted him.

And in reciprocation, there was little to suspect why this captain care for Rosa or family as a whole.

In short, I think you have been thinking too much and missed the background between this captain and the whole family.

[Kite22]

George is smart but I think you give him to much credit, or seriously underestimate the difficulty of the Epitaph. In order for Eva to solve it she needed the help of the other adults and to break it down piece by piece and some final clue in an old storage room and they've had plenty of time to solve it as well.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul

I just wanna know the flash back between Maria and Ange on the Island when Ange said that Sakutaro is just a stuffed animal .. did they mentioned which year this happened?! and also, is this the only time Ange visited the Island?

there is no mention of which year that happened, however it was obviously a family meeting and Ange is 6 years old in 1986.

Since it is practically impossible that Ange was able to question Maria at the age of 3, this is either 1984 or 1985.

[Uchiha Soul]

Well first of all I wrote this:

But to think about what Sakutaro did in this man's boat .. I assume he found it after the incidents.. maybe found it on the beach or somewhere else .. bcoz I don’t think he is the one who took them to the Island. So either he found it or he went to the Island at least one time after the incident by his own or he had some relations with Rosa!

So I did refer there is some relation between them and as u wrote now, they know each other from her childhood so what I expected is right (coz I didn’t know that he worked so many years with them).

Originally Posted by ijriims

In short, I think you have been thinking too much and missed the background between this captain and the whole family.

Yeah maybe .. but I just wanna know how did Sakutaru reached his boat? .. as I said before he might found it after the incidents, so if this is right did he found anything else with it? Is this is this same torn Sakutaru or new one?! If Rosa gave it him before the meeting (as some of u said) why didn’t he return it back after the incidents.. did he forgot or something else? Is there any possibility that Maria hide it there? She might bring the torn one with her but she afraid from her mom and kept it at the boat!! Did the man know about it or not?

See I can stay all the day write down the probabilities.. there are so many possibilities not just to this point but to all the points .. any thing showed to us is important, we cant neglected any little detail .. well I guess this is my way of thinking .. we have to stayed focus to solve the case .. at least this is what I was doing during my watching detective conan .. ps: I solved lots of the crimes bcoz of the minor details.

Well I know there is no answers to any question in current time, all we have is to wait, Think and see.

Originally Posted by Kite22

George is smart but I think you give him to much credit, or seriously underestimate the difficulty of the Epitaph.

I didn’t say he solved the puzzle but at least he thought about it .. i mean he is kind of persons who set silently and observed everything around them and caring about the details and if he wanna talk he will not let you think what he is exactly thinking about. Those people are so smart and tricky, from his reaction to the test, he didn’t panic and his answer was so damn ornate .. Gaap didn’t know what his actual intention until he told her literally.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Uchiha Soul

Well first of all I wrote this:



So I did refer there is some relation between them and as u wrote now, they know each other from her childhood so what I expected is right (coz I didn’t know that he worked so many years with them).



[COLOR="darkred"]Yeah maybe .. but I just wanna know how did Sakutaru reached his boat? .. as I said before he might found it after the incidents, so if this is right did he found anything else with it? Is this is this same torn Sakutaru or new one?! If Rosa gave it him before the meeting (as some of u said) why didn’t he return it back after the incidents.. did he forgot or something else? Is there any possibility that Maria hide it there? She might bring the torn one with her but she afraid from her mom and kept it at the boat!! Did the man know about it or not?

See I can stay all the day write down the probabilities.. there are so many possibilities not just to this point but to all the points .. any thing showed to us is important, we cant neglected any little detail .. well I guess this is my way of thinking .. we have to stayed focus to solve the case .. at least this is what I was doing during my watching detective conan .. ps: I solved lots of the crimes bcoz of the minor details.

Huh? I'm sorry, maybe you could be a little clearer?

So you're asking why the boat guy didn't return it afterwards? ...Uh, Rosa being dead and all MIGHT hinder her ability to ask it back, assuming she did do that.

Uhh, Detective Conan? Sorry, but When They Cry is a whole different beast.

[Uchiha Soul]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Huh? I'm sorry, maybe you could be a little clearer?

So you're asking why the boat guy didn't return it afterwards? ...Uh, Rosa being dead and all MIGHT hinder her ability to ask it back, assuming she did do that.

i mean why didn't he return it to Eva .. she is the only survivor and everything must be returned to her .. as he one of them he can simply gave everything he got that belongs to the family to her .. and i write also he may forgot or never know about existence on his boat .. im just putting THEORIES .. not saying that was happened.

Uhh, Detective Conan? Sorry, but When They Cry is a whole different beast

i didn't say it is the same kind of anime .. i know its different but Detective Conan talking about crimes and we have to see Conan searching for evidence right? so while he is doing that i kept focusing on minor things, focus on personality, on minor details that no one care about and from these things i put a theories and try to know the killer .. most of them i got it right.
i know Umineko is so different .. its so much difficult than regular crime bcoz of the magic involvement.. but for me i dont believe about the magic i want to solve it as mere crime.

so what im trying to say is the minor details is as much important as the big one (imo)

[Jan-Poo]

Rather than that it baffles me that while the captain is in possession of Sakutaro knowing that it was probably Maria's plush, he still doesn't get what Ange is looking at. Alzheimer?

Regardless of that Uchiha has a point anyway. Considering that Ange was given the stake of Mammon and Maria's diary (that certainly aren't her possessions) there's really no excuse for the Captain for not being able to give the plush to Ange. And I have absolutely no doubt that Ange would have wanted to have it all costs if she knew about it.

At this point the only way I can excuse the captain is in the case he didn't know it was Maria's plush. But that is still hard to believe.


And then there is also the possibility that there were more than just one Sakutaro and the captain simply happens to have one.

[Uchiha Soul]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Regardless of that Uchiha has a point anyway. Considering that Ange was given the stake of Mammon and Maria's diary (that certainly aren't her possessions) there's really no excuse for the Captain for not being able to give the plush to Ange. And I have absolutely no doubt that Ange would have wanted to have it all costs if she knew about it.

Finally, someone got my point

And then there is also the possibility that there were more than just one Sakutaro and the captain simply happens to have one.

if Sakutaro is not a handy made by Rosa (if its a market product), the one that inside the boat might be belong to the man, an old toy that belong to his children .. although it will not be a perfect idea if they did that except it will show us that Sakutaro is not a handmade and Beato is a liar .. the other thought i have is this stuffed animal may belong to Rosa when she was a child .. if this man worked for them since 1948, this mean he knew them since their birth .. Rosa was lonely just like her daughter, so she might played with stuffed toys like Maria and if this captain is the same person who took her to school everyday, it might they got strong relation especially if he treated her well and show her the fatherhood that she lacked.. in that case she might gave him as a gift for friendship symbol.. or we also can think in the opposite way i guess!!

[ijriims]

I think I can answer the question why the captain did not realize what Ange was looking at even he received Sakutarou (unfinished) from Rosa in 1986, without resorting to Alzheimer...

To the captain, that Sakutarou was a gift which was the first time created by Rosa for Maria (he probably did not know a previous Sakutarou existed), but that gift had not been finished, as Rosa told him she was going to finish it after the meeting.

Because it was not finished, he had little reason to give it to Eva (and how on earth he would want to give a plush to a 5x-year-old woman Eva, especially when it was not finished?).

Why was he puzzled at what Ange was amazed? To the captain, he probably did not expect Ange to know about the history of the plush as he thought Sakutarou was just created recently in 1986's family meeting and Ange did not come. He did not know there was a previous Sakutarou and Ange knew about it, it was probably an amazement to him why Ange would react to the plush at all, probably he thought that unfinished plush was just some normal toy in Ange's eyes.

To the captain, Ange could not have distinguished the unfinished plush from other things placing on the stock. That's why he did not understand what Ange was reacted to.

Only after he realized that Ange might know about Sakutarou that he would understand why she had such a strong reaction.

Reader's perception is different from Ange's and from the captain's. That's how I viewed it.