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Old 2012-10-29, 04:10   Link #31021
Drifloon
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Was Jessica really as interested in Yasu as she seems to be in the gameboards, though? It seems pretty unlikely to me.

Since Kanon is mostly portrayed as never actually pursuing his chance at love, I think it's probably more like Yasu felt something for Jessica and had suspicions that she might have felt something back, but that they never actually talked about it and it never really went anywhere.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:18   Link #31022
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If that was the case, the relationship would've been portrayed the other way around. It's very important and very CONSISTENT that Jessica is always proactive in pursuing the relationship.

Ryukishi, for all his faults, portrays things the way he does for a reason. He even stated in an interview not to doubt the relationships he portrays, considering it 'a cruel trap'. Jessica loves Kanon. We are not to doubt this. Whether Jessica knows Kanon is Yasu, whether or not they ever dated, and other details like that are debatable, but not this.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:24   Link #31023
Kiltias
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Except that it seems extremely important that she had these three romances and no one seemed to understand there was a conflict. If George and Jessica knew they were pining for the same person, you think it'd come up. It does for George and Battler, but...
Perhaps thats what actually went down in EP 4 where Jessica and George "killed" each other?

As in it wasn't:
Jessica vs Ronove and George vs Gaap but simply Jessica vs George.

And perhaps Jessica knew about Yasu.
Didn't she went along with Nanjo to "treat" Kanon in EP1?

Regarding EP 2?
I always saw the scene with Jessica,Kanon and Beatrice that it was Kanon trying to fight his inner demons as Beatrice tried to kill Jessica that being the moment she found out.

EP 3:
Nanjo being killed by Yasu/Kanon to save Jessica.Didn't Kanon's "Spirit" appear to her blind self?

EP 4:
Well I can't say how she knew but somehow I see some sense that Jessica and George both knew about Shkanon and their fight was to declare the victor of love.
Both died that being the reason Shannon and Kanon died the very next.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:44   Link #31024
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The second twilight in EP4, atleast at the time it's claimed to occur, was obviously faked, judging by the phone call Jessica made. That, plus their distance apart, proves they did not kill each other, since corpses never move after death in Umineko.
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Old 2012-10-29, 06:16   Link #31025
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If that was the case, the relationship would've been portrayed the other way around. It's very important and very CONSISTENT that Jessica is always proactive in pursuing the relationship.

Ryukishi, for all his faults, portrays things the way he does for a reason. He even stated in an interview not to doubt the relationships he portrays, considering it 'a cruel trap'. Jessica loves Kanon. We are not to doubt this. Whether Jessica knows Kanon is Yasu, whether or not they ever dated, and other details like that are debatable, but not this.
Is it OK to doubt the relationship in Prime, yet believe it on the gameboard?

I mean, calling it 'a cruel trap' to doubt them seems like telling us the relationships are real.

One thing that always struck me is the differences regarding the romances between Legacy and Turn. In Legacy Shannon hesitates to accept George's ring, but in Turn she takes it so fast George is surprised. And in Legacy there's nothing between Kanon and Jessica, yet in Turn it suggests they're starting to develop feelings for each other. The bonds of each respective relationship seem to generally strengthen in every subsequent story, End notwithstanding.

Basically, the relationships seem like an embellishment, built on a metafictional history. Certainly there was something there in Prime to begin with, but I think a lot of their stronger feelings are exaggerated. Especially when it comes to Jessica and George, since we only get to see Yasu's take on them. Jessica most of all, since at least in George's case we have some more solid history between him and Shannon; for Jessica all we have is the school festival.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-10-29 at 22:18.
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Old 2012-10-29, 09:53   Link #31026
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The second twilight in EP4, atleast at the time it's claimed to occur, was obviously faked, judging by the phone call Jessica made. That, plus their distance apart, proves they did not kill each other, since corpses never move after death in Umineko.
Hence the quotation marks.
Jessica didn't die in the confrontation but George did and herself having died at a later point perhaps due to injuries.
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Old 2012-10-29, 10:05   Link #31027
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If that was the case, the relationship would've been portrayed the other way around. It's very important and very CONSISTENT that Jessica is always proactive in pursuing the relationship.

Ryukishi, for all his faults, portrays things the way he does for a reason. He even stated in an interview not to doubt the relationships he portrays, considering it 'a cruel trap'. Jessica loves Kanon. We are not to doubt this. Whether Jessica knows Kanon is Yasu, whether or not they ever dated, and other details like that are debatable, but not this.
Well, you know, maybe Jessica was more into Yasu than Yasu was ever into Jessica. Kanon's initial attitude toward furniture love is pretty harsh in Legend and Turn, and he goes to her festival less out of love and more out of obligation or, dare I say it, friendship.

There's also what Wanderer points out about the meta-evolution of the romances. In Turn the romance is just barely starting. In Dawn Jessica's really into him. Those are the same two days. There must be some degree of embellishment or uncertainty one direction or the other. Such evolution of the relationship is impossible except as a meta-construct unless that's the case.

Could it not also be that he means to say the relationships should not be doubted in the context of the stories, wherein Shannon and Kanon have independent existences as characters despite a dependent body? Certainly, I don't think anyone doubts that. Well I guess I kind of do, but only because the Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice dynamic doesn't make any logistical sense. Setting aside that belief, I have no trouble accepting that Shannon-the-character and George-the-character genuinely have a loving relationship. I don't know if it's true in Prime, but we don't know if anything was true about Prime.
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Old 2012-10-29, 13:18   Link #31028
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i don't think I'm missing any point at all by questioning the plausibility of leading a double life. I understand the gameboards need not reflect reality entirely, but, I mean ... there is clearly some intent to at least stay within the bounds of what reality was kinda sorta like. It's basically a huge plot hole, and lazy writing.
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Old 2012-10-29, 13:28   Link #31029
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Well, you know, maybe Jessica was more into Yasu than Yasu was ever into Jessica. Kanon's initial attitude toward furniture love is pretty harsh in Legend and Turn, and he goes to her festival less out of love and more out of obligation or, dare I say it, friendship.
This is a pretty interesting way to look at it. Although, I think Yasu must have returned her feelings to SOME extent, or else Kanon wouldn't have been treated as having any chance at winning the duel from the beginning.

Maybe it was something like that Jessica did express her feelings to Yasu at some point, but she declined because of her existing relationship with George, and then felt conflicted afterwards because she did in fact return her feelings to some extent? Or maybe Jessica never actually confessed or anything, but Yasu was able to deduce it from how she acted around her.

It's all a cat box, in the end. To me, the only thing that's certain is that it would be nonsense to suggest that Yasu lived as two different people for several years in anything resembling normal reality, so I have to conclude that we are not supposed to assume that such a thing happened outside of the gameboards.
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Old 2012-10-29, 14:17   Link #31030
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Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.
I guess that's sorta it tho, yeah it didn't seem to make much sense, but really what did we know after reading arc 1 + arc 2's intro, at that very point?
I'm not sure how too put it, but crazy stuff can get explanations later on, like many did in Higurashi (tho the sense they made is actually debatable I guess).

Going further into that debate tho. What's so crazy about Shkanon, in the light of everything else?
Kinzo managed to hide a Mansion, 10 tons of gold, and two Beatrices, for way way way longer.
Natsuhi and Krauss are managing to hide the death of Kinzo. Hell the moment we accepted Kinzo as being already dead, Shkanon shouldn't have been a stretch to accept.
Not to mention that Battler being Kyrie's son was hidden from them, or that Krauss never learned about the man from 19 years ago.
Who'd be more suspicious? You go to see your grandfather, and don't get to see him for two years in a row, and you're going to demand to see two random servants at the specific same time because you think there's something up with them?
If anything, people on Rokkenjima have too many secrets to wonder about to imagine ones like Shkanon, it's like the Sun blocking the stars during the day.
As for outrageous, omega bomb + chapel FT in arc 2 is all I've really got to say about this.

Now you might, independently, claim that all of this is crazy and makes Umineko bad. I somehow tend to think this is probably Renall's opinion (sorry if I'm wrong), but there's just no reason to specifically consider Shkanon to be worst then the rest, because it really isn't.

Also two things.
I think Jessica knows about Shkanon because in arc 2 she tells Shannon something like "I think of you as my best friend" which sounds like the follow up to her failed confession to Kanon. Furthermore her whole speech about having "more then one selves" to Kanon sounds like it could've been the origin of the whole deal, and not weirdly having Jessica preaching to someone who already surpassed her in that. As a matter of fact I think it makes some sense if we think Yasu learned to act after being introduced to Jessica on a stage and especially seeing her outrageous costume.
I think there's a good hint about visual appearances being similar : even tho Shannon denies blood relation with Kanon, they tend to be called siblings by others. Why do you think?

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-10-29 at 14:56.
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Old 2012-10-29, 15:21   Link #31031
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Kinzo's activities are equally as stupid and bad as Shkanon and are equally implausible. At least the ep7 stuff. The hidden mansion I can buy nobody knowing about while Kinzo was in control of the family. Once Krauss was even nominally in charge, he should've immediately known about the place. But the gold and explosives? Ludicrous. Their existence doesn't make Shkanon any better, it just makes Ryukishi more of a hack.

Hiding Kinzo's death seems about as plausible as ep5 made it seem. That is to say, the other siblings don't buy it at all but don't have anything they can really use to prove it yet. It's made very much abundantly clear in the early episodes that if Kinzo does not turn up alive pretty soon, the siblings are going to push for inheritance discussions. I don't think for a moment that they buy that Kinzo is dead and the fact that Krauss and Natsuhi are criminally complicit in covering it up is clearly intended as part of their bargaining position. It's just implicit rather than explicit, because it's a pretty harsh accusation to make against family. That at least I have no complaints about. I'd complain if it appeared to be working perfectly fine and no one was the wiser.

The baby swap with Rudolf is dumb and seemingly pointless, but I can accept that it's possible if he really wants it to happen and has enough money. That Kyrie wouldn't know is another matter, but Battler takes after his father's side of the family (he's said to resemble Kinzo in his youth), so how is Kyrie going to suspect he's her son if she doesn't live with him and he doesn't resemble her? Of course, there's no purpose to the baby swap or Kyrie being his mother, so God only knows why this is in there to begin with.

Shkanon isn't dumb if it happens only in the stories. It is completely beyond any stretch of belief if it happened in real life (absent things like "Kanon" accompanying Jessica to her school festival). There is no indication specifically that it would have, though, so I just choose to believe Yasu-the-writer did it to make a point and not because she's actually crazy.
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Old 2012-10-29, 15:53   Link #31032
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Well prime remains a fiction anyway. If someone tried to make me believe a murder spree such as the ones in Umineko including the letters and fake murders and all even without Shkanon I'd have quite a hard time believing any of it.

Still I guess I was overall trying to make two points.
1) There are other things like Shkanon, even if we dislike them, I don't think we should've been surprised or discarded it considering everything else.
2) Shkanon has one big advantage next to most other things that were hidden : nobody is specifically looking into it or has any reasons to. Compared to Kinzo's status or the gold, especially if as you say most of the time Kanon existed the sibblings have been thinking about Kinzo's life/death status, I don't think it's such a stretch to accept it.
If as you and others say and I tend to think as well, Shkanon is a thing only existing in the fictions (like probably many others) and was there to make a point, I think the people on Rokkenjima has the same chances we'd have if we were given only a single arc and no second reading.

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There's also what Wanderer points out about the meta-evolution of the romances. In Turn the romance is just barely starting. In Dawn Jessica's really into him. Those are the same two days. There must be some degree of embellishment or uncertainty one direction or the other. Such evolution of the relationship is impossible except as a meta-construct unless that's the case.
Well that these events happens on the same two days doesn't mean that they were written in the same two days or that they allude to prime events that really happened in these two days.
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Old 2012-10-29, 16:37   Link #31033
Kealym
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I guess that's sorta it tho, yeah it didn't seem to make much sense, but really what did we know after reading arc 1 + arc 2's intro, at that very point?
I'm not sure how too put it, but crazy stuff can get explanations later on, like many did in Higurashi (tho the sense they made is actually debatable I guess).
That's true, but ... those explanation NEVER came, later. The story ended. As of the end of Turn's opening, I knew "the idea that Kanon is just an imaginary friend is kind of too wonky to work".

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Going further into that debate tho. What's so crazy about Shkanon, in the light of everything else?
Well, without specifically replying to each point you mentioned, those are all just ... things my suspension of disbelief can withstand. Shkanon's day-to-day life, based solely on what's actually in the text, is something it cannot, when I think about it for anything more than a couple moments?

About your Jessica thing, well ... I disagree, but I respect it as a pretty valid interpretation. I'd say it's a little wonky because I think the stuff with the couples was supposed to take place in 1985? I'm not sure, and don't feel like arguing enough to check.

About the other thing, though, and this is just my personal experience, but calling someone you grew up with (especially if they were raised in the same household) your "brother" or "sister" or "cousin" is really common, as far as I've seen. If it had been an unstated thing, I might think "perhaps those two are related?", but we're specifically told "No no no, they're not related at all."

Such a matter is touched on, very slightly, in End, when Battler suggests that the "Rosa" who went to bed in the guesthouse was someone else in disguise, but Dlanor insists clues would have been shown. Honestly, if it had been pushed, I think we would've gotten special Shkanon logic about how neither of them was actually disguised as anyone other than themselves, just like how they're sometimes dead, and sometimes dead ... -ish.
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Old 2012-10-29, 17:21   Link #31034
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Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.

Honestly, and it's been said before by others, but I doubt Ryu had fully thought out all the "mechanics" and logistics of his solution, yet. Considering also that he gave several arcs HUGE rewrites depending on how the Japanese fandom was reacting to the previous ones, I think, at best, he had a vague idea of the general sentiment of Shkanon, and didn't think the details out beyond Oct. 4 and 5 1986.

And that sentiment, IMO, seems to be about acknowledging Kanon's distinct personhood, the "magic" that allowed for his existence int he first place, and how that magic is strenghtened by having it acknowledged by others. Still, though, if there had been just one line, something like "actually, Kanon doesn't work here very often, he's more of a part-time guy..." or maybe saying that Shannon and Kanon were actual blood siblings, instead of just "close like a brother and sister", or even, actually, if the story were written with her several years OLDER than she currently is, it would just avoid so many of the obvious problems.

... thinking on it this way, I can explain Will's nonsensical "We don't need to hear about the last two years" as not just Ryu being lazy, but by saying Even Will knew the bullshit that layed ahead would probably have been too much for even HIS patience.
Yes, I also thought so.

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i don't think I'm missing any point at all by questioning the plausibility of leading a double life. I understand the gameboards need not reflect reality entirely, but, I mean ... there is clearly some intent to at least stay within the bounds of what reality was kinda sorta like. It's basically a huge plot hole, and lazy writing.
Surely the whole thing isn't planned very well as we're given no hints about how Yasu managed such a thing. She's pretty young and, although Shannon might not spend all her time on Rokkenjima, her spare time should be also spent at school where Jessica also is, leaving her very short time to play the role of Kanon.
Not mentioning that apparently in Prime nothing came up about Kanon not being real/being a completely unknwon guy, which means the other workers likely confirmed there was a Kanon guy working in Rokkenjima who should also have some documents proving his existence. We're told servants, among them, didn't call themselves with their blessed names so the other servants should know which was Kanon's name but even if they didn't likely the police could ask the orphanage which were the orphans sent to the Ushiromiya.
Male servants were a bit of uncommon so it shouldn't be impossible to figure out if 'Yoshiya' existed and if it didn't it should raise suspicions.

Basically, Umineko first seems done as if the people had more chances to solve the gameboard than the police has to solve prime but then, if you think at it, the police might have had much more leads than us that would point at Shannon and Kanon. Maybe they would still not solve the whole thing but surely those two would look a lot more suspicious than they did to us.

A theory I also played with is that only on the gameboard Shannon and Kanon were the same person while in Prime they were different people and for some reason Yasu projected on herself Kanon in her tales but, if that was the plan, personally I don't like it much.

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Hence the quotation marks.
Jessica didn't die in the confrontation but George did and herself having died at a later point perhaps due to injuries.
This would generate a story with a second culprit... it's not that's impossible but I don't think that's what Yasu had in mind.

I wonder if she had in mind the backstory of one of Christie's mysteries in which a person she knew asked her to write him inside her story as the culprit because the culprit is the most interesting character in a mystery.

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Perhaps thats what actually went down in EP 4 where Jessica and George "killed" each other?

As in it wasn't:
Jessica vs Ronove and George vs Gaap but simply Jessica vs George.

And perhaps Jessica knew about Yasu.
Didn't she went along with Nanjo to "treat" Kanon in EP1?
Yes, but likely she saw nothing or she would have noticed he wasn't hurt... or, he could have waved it off saying they were preparing a trap for the culprit and he faked being hurt and to please pretend he'd been injuried (it would be sort of weak though as he would become very suspicious when people would continue to die but maybe love would made Jessica that blind or she never dared to voice her suspicions).

Also there was nothing to see that would point out at Kanon being Shannon as Shannon has no breasts so if she were to see Kanon without a shirt he wouldn't have looked suspicious. Things would have probably been different if Shannon had been in Kanon's place...

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Was Jessica really as interested in Yasu as she seems to be in the gameboards, though? It seems pretty unlikely to me.

Since Kanon is mostly portrayed as never actually pursuing his chance at love, I think it's probably more like Yasu felt something for Jessica and had suspicions that she might have felt something back, but that they never actually talked about it and it never really went anywhere.
I think that Jessica was interested in Kanon... Yasu might have, at best, mistaken the strenght of Jessica's interest. Jessica is, after all, looking out for a boyfriend and she's trying to build something with Kanon that looks more like getting close as friends at the moment.
We can't really say if, in the long run, Jessica would be willing to start a permanent relation with Kanon as Kanon deliberately doesn't allow the two of them to get close.
Even if Kanon were to allow it, Jessica might discover that she doesn't like him much... unless he plays the Shannon card and tries to adapt to her as Shannon seems to try to do with George, accepting his wishes without ever telling how she wanted things to be between the two of them.

And do I remember wrong or in EP 6 it was said that, were Jessica the one to win the duel she and Kanon would grow closer and the thing is described as basically Kanon entering in Jessica's world of interests (studying music for example) but not with Jessica entering in Kanon's world (whatever that world included?).


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Kinzo managed to hide a Mansion, 10 tons of gold, and two Beatrices, for way way way longer.
Natsuhi and Krauss are managing to hide the death of Kinzo. Hell the moment we accepted Kinzo as being already dead, Shkanon shouldn't have been a stretch to accept.
Not to mention that Battler being Kyrie's son was hidden from them, or that Krauss never learned about the man from 19 years ago.
Who'd be more suspicious? You go to see your grandfather, and don't get to see him for two years in a row, and you're going to demand to see two random servants at the specific same time because you think there's something up with them?
To be honest it's implied the siblings only went to see Kinzotwice in those years after kinzo's death, one being the time of the Rokkenjima incident and they all were suspicious about Kinzo not being really alive.

I'm sure Jessica might have found the thing odd as well but since the fact she couldn't see grandad was a lie supported by everyone she loved she likely preferred to believe it to be true than accept that Kinzo was dead and everyone was lying to her about it.

Also Krauss knew about the baby, Natsuhi told him and Rosa discovered the secret mansion, over which everyone had suspicious as Kinzo's wife was used to have her kids search for him when he disappeared.

In Ep 8 is also implied that Asumu might have found out that Battler wasn't her kid.

So, as you see, many of the other crazy stuffs weren't blindly accepted.

ShKanon is odd because Shannon and Kanon are never doubted yet all the suspicious things that should be obvious about them are never discussed by the other characters.

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Kinzo's activities are equally as stupid and bad as Shkanon and are equally implausible. At least the ep7 stuff. The hidden mansion I can buy nobody knowing about while Kinzo was in control of the family. Once Krauss was even nominally in charge, he should've immediately known about the place. But the gold and explosives? Ludicrous. Their existence doesn't make Shkanon any better, it just makes Ryukishi more of a hack.
Yes, most of Ep 7 backstory seems weak. Sometimes I wonder if we should consider it similar to Yasu's backstory, a tale that wasn't exactly honest but more like an interpretation of the truth (after all it was said in red that Kinzo wasn't so pure as he painted himself to be during the whole gold mess with the Japanese and the Italians and it was implied that the commander he disliked so much might have been a better person).

The fact Krauss never found out about Kuwadorian also seems pretty weird.

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The baby swap with Rudolf is dumb and seemingly pointless, but I can accept that it's possible if he really wants it to happen and has enough money. That Kyrie wouldn't know is another matter, but Battler takes after his father's side of the family (he's said to resemble Kinzo in his youth), so how is Kyrie going to suspect he's her son if she doesn't live with him and he doesn't resemble her? Of course, there's no purpose to the baby swap or Kyrie being his mother, so God only knows why this is in there to begin with.
I agree. Rudolf could have divorced from Asumu and married Kyrie if the baby was the problem. After all he'll always remain pretty close to Kyrie and he'll even complain about asumu not being as perfect as she painted herself to be (though honestly if I had been in her place and I were to find out what he did I would seriously consider strangling him with my bare hands).

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well prime remains a fiction anyway. If someone tried to make me believe a murder spree such as the ones in Umineko including the letters and fake murders and all even without Shkanon I'd have quite a hard time believing any of it.

Still I guess I was overall trying to make two points.
1) There are other things like Shkanon, even if we dislike them, I don't think we should've been surprised or discarded it considering everything else.
2) Shkanon has one big advantage next to most other things that were hidden : nobody is specifically looking into it or has any reasons to. Compared to Kinzo's status or the gold, especially if as you say most of the time Kanon existed the sibblings have been thinking about Kinzo's life/death status, I don't think it's such a stretch to accept it.
Uhm... the fact there are other things that are hard to believe doesn't make ShKanon more believable.
The problem might be that each of us might accept to suspend his disbelief for 1 or more of them but the whole of them look really too much for many of us.
Maybe not each of us choose ShKanon as the most unbelievable but this doesn't mean it turns as believable, just that other people focused more on other things.
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Old 2012-10-29, 19:29   Link #31035
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There is something to be said though, about Shkanon being so ridiculous and pointless that no one on Rokkenjima would take it seriously.

EP6 in the English world was an interesting case study. Between its Japanese release and the release of our translation, the vast majority of people on English boards thought Shkanon was a joke. A joke, as in, there was no way Ryuukishi meant for that to be the answer, even though a lot of people who read the Japanese version claimed that Ryuukishi made it pretty clear that it was the answer. Maybe someone here was an exception, but I'm willing to bet only a handful of those people re-read EP1 and EP2 specifically to search for Shkanon clues at this point in time.

Once our translation came out, the majority of people seemed to think Ryuukishi did mean Shkanontrice to be the answer, though a lot still thought and still think it was terrible.


In other words, the majority of readers refused to even consider Shkanon for a period of several months, even after it became a well-known theory. And since we're reading a mystery novel by the Hinamizawa Syndrome guy, you'd think we would be a lot more likely to believe a "twist" like that than someone in real life.

Of course, you can argue that Natsuhi and Krauss should have had more hints than we did, so this argument doesn't even get close to proving Shkanon valid on its own.
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Old 2012-10-30, 05:49   Link #31036
Wanderer
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Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Not mentioning that apparently in Prime nothing came up about Kanon not being real/being a completely unknwon guy,
In the EP8 battle for the Golden Land, the goats claimed Kanon didn't exist. Jessica argued back pointing out how Kanon appeared and was witnessed at the school festival. She didn't mention anything else.

So it's not written records, nor is it his coworkers' memories which serve as the best objective evidence for Kanon's existence. No, it's a bunch of kids at school who saw him show up to their school festival as "Jessica's boyfriend". That's apparently it.
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Old 2012-10-30, 07:58   Link #31037
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I get the distinct feeling that Ryu did intend them to have separate lives, for example due to Kinzo teaching Kanon how to shoot. I am guessing he just never thought logistically about the problems that would create (after all, he'd love a handwave like: oh, Kanon rarely works here, or Genji organises all work rosters). In mysteries the general rule is that if it is well hinted and not impossible, then it can happen, as long as it also fits the logic of the story.

As for the police and Kanon, I'm not too sure what they would do if there was a big explosion, but I always assumed they'd be more interested in talking to survivors then seeing if anyone remembers going to school with one of the dead, especially if it is mentioned by others that they worked with him.

I also don't know why Kanon and Shannon can't just have been brother and sister, would have made life sooooo mcuh easier. Though maybe it makes their backstory harder or something.

And yes, it is clear that the Kinzo ploy worked for the length of the first conference barely, but well before the second (and even maybe during the first) at least some of the relatives were sus on it. It just became a convenient lie. Rereading ep 1 though, it is clear just how much Eva is taunting Natsuhi about it. Especially as Natsuhi is so passionately and crazily lying.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:06   Link #31038
GuestSpeaker
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Haha, maybe Ryu was trying to defend himself, first time we enjoyed the tale, next time we tore out its guts and found every plot hole. Sorry Ryu, guilt won't stop us now.

I always wondered if Krauss did know about Kumadorian (or however you spell that). It wasn't the best kept secret around (even if after B2 died it was left for ruin). We know he kept the gold from Natsuhi, so it is possible he just kept it under his hat to hide it from the siblings (he never knew Rosa knew). It may be the hidden passage was far enough away he never found it, and just assumed it was an empty mistress' house in a rather hard part of the forest to get to.
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Old 2012-10-30, 08:38   Link #31039
Renall
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
As for the police and Kanon, I'm not too sure what they would do if there was a big explosion, but I always assumed they'd be more interested in talking to survivors then seeing if anyone remembers going to school with one of the dead, especially if it is mentioned by others that they worked with him.
Here's the thing though: The police believe over a dozen people are dead. They need to track down and talk with a lot of people besides Eva: relatives, servants who weren't on duty that day, people that had seen the victims recently, Kawabata (well they won't need to find him since he reported the event and is probably cooperating), etc.

The police will want an accounting of everybody who was on that island, because they have precious few identifiable remains. Bear in mind it's a private island, so they can't just psychically know who was actually there, and they may find evidence that shows merely that some people were supposed to be there. For example, Ange was probably supposed to be there, but she wasn't, and the police would try to find that out.

Inevitably, they will ask the other servants who was supposed to be on duty for that weekend. The question is, what will those servants say? We can be all but certain that they'd mention Genji and Kumasawa, most of them probably knew Gohda was sure to be there... and... who? Shannon seems to have been Yasu's proper servant face, so they most likely would say she was supposed to have been working that weekend. Would they mention a Kanon at all? There's two scenarios here as I can see it:
  • The servants do mention that a servant named Kanon was supposed to have been working with Shannon that weekend. The police investigate, and find... what, exactly? They're going to ask questions about who knew him well, when he came to the orphanage, when he started working, what his real name is and any documentation that exists about him, whether any known relatives were ever located for him, etc. They might even try to find his parents somehow if they're desperate for leads. None of that is going to turn up, is it?
  • The servants don't mention anybody named Kanon. Just Shannon/Genji/Kumasawa/Gohda, all of whom are people with identifiable lives outside Rokkenjima. This would satisfy police investigation... right up until the message bottles claim there was another servant present. At this point the police go back to their witnesses, who continue to claim they've never heard of anybody named Kanon. The police should probably become immediately suspicious of the message bottles at that point.
But apparently neither of these things happened, or if they did, we know nothing about it other than the claim in ep8 that Kanon doesn't exist... which would rightfully follow from any investigation into him unless Yasu/Genji went to such ridiculous lengths as to forge paperwork for him, and even then there won't be anybody who knows him and perhaps most critically, no school records whatsoever. Yasu/Shannon, remember, goes to school. I presume under her real name. People would know of her and have seen her around at school, even if they didn't know her very well. This would be true of many of the servants, most likely. Kanon would have to live in the same places as Shannon and the other servants and go to school with them (or at least to a school in the area). Nobody at school will have ever heard of him. Nobody at any school would have heard of him.

Again, how would this not set off red flags for the police? As far as they know, there may have been an uneducated, undocumented, mistreated slave boy on the island whose very existence has been wiped out by the explosion. Or else the message bottles are inserting a person who doesn't exist.
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Old 2012-10-30, 13:17   Link #31040
Kiltias
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I looked up some information regarding Kyrie and Rudolf and their positions of Bishops in EP 3 and found the result quite interesting.
"Why is a Bishop called a Bishop?"
Quote:
The elements of the chess represent the world's societies of the mid of last millennium, especially in Europ & Asia--all of which had undergone the very same system.

The bishops, in today terms, were a bench of politicians gathered to dectate the law & set the norms. But, at that time, the bishops were found falling far short from fulfilling any standard. Frankly speaking, they were two-faced type of men, very manipulative. This is why their movements on the chess board are not horizontal nor vertical, they are diagonal mirroring their snake-like moves.
I could also mention how the Italian Bishop refer to Standard Bearers in the Military and in other Languages to Hunters and Archers.



Also I find this interesting.
00 -
Quote:
00 buck shell that holds 9 pellets. Buckshot is generally used for two purposes, self-defense and hunting medium to large game. Loads can be tailored through altering the size of the shot, pellet count, length of the shell, powder charge, and in other ways to fit individual weapons and purposes. For instances, loads of 12 gauge, 00 buck are commonly available in 7 to 18 pellets in lengths from 2.75" to 3.5". Reduced-recoil shells are becoming increasingly available. Low-recoil 00 buckshot allows the shooter to make fast follow-up shots, which may be needed in a combat situation. They are also useful for training shooters who are not yet used to the recoil of full-power shells.
45 -
Quote:
The .45 ACP is an effective combat pistol cartridge that combines accuracy and stopping power for use against human targets.
410 -
Quote:
.410 bore guns throw the least weight of shot, but are very easy to handle. This results in a very low recoil, so the .410 is often chosen for young shooters
45 and 410 together:
A 410 bore fits into a 45 chamber.

Implying that 45 and 410 everytime they shoot IMO = The gun used is the Winchester 45 Colt with the 410 bore Ammo.
As in:
EP 3: Kyrie and Rudolf were killed by the Winchester 45 holding the 410 Ammo.
Perhaps could imply that Eva shot them with the very gun she killed Battler with or at least:
The person that held the 45 Caliber killed Rudolf and Kyrie.
And it DOES exist as its stated that Rosa used it in EP 2 when she pulverized one of the goats brains.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-30 at 13:54.
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