2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I’m no Kamala fan, but for anyone to believe anyone in the National Democratic Party gives the slightest fig what Tulsi Gabbard says is beyond hilarious. She ranks about on a par with Jill Stein and Kanye West.

Interesting, the DNC and Kamala did not seem to take it so well as you though. Here let me refresh your memory:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/o1-CRrMDSLs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

When Tulsi exposed her record in this exchange Kamala had no defense, as you can clearly see in the video. Kamala's campaign tanked after this moment, she suspended her candidacy shortly after, even though she was the favorite leading into that debate night.

Now all that the Trump campaign has to do is hit her repeatedly on her record while trying to look responsible on the economy. A few good debate nights where he trashes Joe Biden by being condescending and making fun of him would also increase his chances of reelection.

It is so sad to see this rigged game being played out right before our eyes. Just like 2016, we are forced to choose between two horrible candidates. Meanwhile, the DNC and the media continue to ignore the progressive candidates, such as Bernie, Tulsi and Yang even though these candidates draw a lot of enthusiasm and attention.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Magin

And so we get the "both sides are the same" argument that irritates the hell out of people... but I'm going to say it's not wrong.

I mean, you ever notice that ALL the candidates who end up in the finals for being President have a ton of $$$ and connections, usually political? How it's never someone from a working-class family that ends up in the position?

As long as we all know money controls politics, no matter what is officially said, then yes, both sides are very much the same.

That said, my current position is something like this: Biden and Harris are definitely NOT going to get much fixed. But, although we all dream of the great leaps and bounds to fix society, you gotta take more realistic baby steps. As long as they can do that, then I'll settle for it.

If you can look at a binary choice where one option is literally an existential threat to the American system of government and millions of lives and the other is not and say both options are "very much the same", what's the point in even having a fucking discussion?

[Sheba]

I'd say you have a problem if you look at the FOUR past years and still think that FOUR MORE YEARS of THAT is fine.

[The Green One]

Considering all the people who are likely going to vote for Trump anyway out of blind devotion or uncaring apathy probably a very good one.

For all we say about if the American people have any common sense at all after the last four years their choice in November is going to be obvious deep down you have the fear of what's going to happen anyway. That sheep will be sheep or that there are a large number of people who think that THIS is a good idea.

I mean do we really want four more years of this NON-guidance with Cov-19? I don't want to be watching another election in four years with Cov-19 still be an active ongoing threat. It's clear Trump is going to do jack shit against it but pretend it's not there.

[Key Board]

Deal with Trump and his gang first.
Deal with Biden and Harris later if needed. The government isn't just the executive branch alone, but Trump is uniquely terrible.

If Fox News is meme-ing about a leftist takeover of the Democratic party than maybe things are getting better after all.

Though honestly, I don't believe there are any fence sitters at this point.
If someone is still a fence sitter at this point, than maybe they weren't going to vote ever.

Edit: though I think voter suppression and potential use of federal forces to influence elections is not something you can solve with just voting.

//

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Magin

How it's never someone from a working-class family that ends up in the position?

"Biden's father was wealthy but had suffered several financial setbacks by the time his son was born. For several years, the family had to live with Biden's maternal grandparents, the Finnegans. When the Scranton area fell into economic decline during the 1950s, Biden's father could not find sustained work. In 1953, the Bidens moved into an apartment in Claymont, Delaware, where they lived for several years before again moving to a house in Wilmington, Delaware. Joe Biden Sr. later became a successful used car salesman, maintaining the family's middle-class lifestyle."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bi...2%E2%80%931965)

"The Vice President and Dr. Jill Biden also released their 2015 federal income tax returns, as well as state income tax returns for both Delaware and Virginia. The Bidens filed joint federal and combined Delaware income tax returns. Dr. Biden filed a separate non-resident Virginia tax return. Together, they reported adjusted gross income of $392,233. The Bidens paid $91,546 in total federal tax for 2015, amounting to an effective tax rate of 23.3%. They also paid $13,729 in Delaware income tax and Dr. Biden paid $3,882 in Virginia income tax. The Bidens contributed $6,620 to charity in 2015."

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...15-tax-returns

$392,000 may seem like a lot, but considering Jill is a physician and Joe earned $235,000 as VP, it's really pretty modest in comparison to Senators and even House members. From what I know, my 28-yo daughter who works in medical research, and her 30-yo boyfriend, an engineer at Google, probably earn at least as much as the Bidens did.

https://ballotpedia.org/Net_worth_of...epresentatives

While the Bidens were paying a tax rate of 23%, the 2012 Republican nominee, Mitt Romney, paid just 14% in taxes on income of nearly $14 million in 2011. He actually had to work to have the rate be that high so it would conform to some public statements he had made previously.

2008 Republican Presidential candidate John McCain told reporters he wasn't sure how many homes he owned; he'd have to ask his staff. The answer appears to have been eight.

[SeijiSensei]

On an unrelated note, I see many people wondering how Trump could still be at ~40% in the polls. Historically, though, 38-40% seems to be about the minimum a Presidential candidate wins regardless of how unpopular he is. Here are the losers' percentages of the vote in what we now see as "landslide" elections:

Hoover (1932): 39.7%
Goldwater (1964): 38.5%
McGovern (1972): 37.5%
Mondale (1984): 40.6%

The reason these are considered landslides is because of the operation of the Electoral College. A candidate winning 45% of the two-party popular vote wins fewer than a quarter of the electoral votes.

[Magin]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

If you can look at a binary choice where one option is literally an existential threat to the American system of government and millions of lives and the other is not and say both options are "very much the same", what's the point in even having a fucking discussion?

The point of discussion is because if American is to really live up to being the Leader of the Free World (a title that apparently Germany is currently in the best position to hold, ironically), we have to point out how broken American politics is, how much bullshit has been added to the system such that we've been indoctrinated to think "Oh, anyone can become President" when in reality it's still just an elite few in either party. Of course, I can always break out the current political joke: "The current Presidential campaign is between a predator and a rapist." (some jokes go a step further and say, Who's who? Exactly...)

The post above this one points out that Biden's family has been through some hardships. Okay, cool. But let's not kid ourselves: I suspect a lot of Biden's popularity comes through on name recognition alone for being Obama's VP. And THAT is another elite title, negating his background life.

... of course, I will also admit that maybe I'm spending too much time on the politics section of Reddit, where apparently Europe is the political model that America should strive for, and that even the most left-wing candidates in America just barely qualify for being left-wing in European countries; they're mostly right-wing when compared to Europe's politics.

[McW]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

If you're proposition is that there's no meaningful difference between Biden and Trump (or indeed, Democrats and Republicans) then no - you're robustly, spectacularly wrong.

Not my point, both parties are very different. Just pointing out that they both have an organization structure that keep the high hierarchy people high in a secure position, those on the highest run for president. People competent with merit might not be able to get that high. "Why Biden?" I said it without Trump in mind, is a question about is he the best that DEM can offer or he's running because he was on the top of the party.

Being an elite by merit is different of being an elite because of a structure/system put them there (Example WWI military), I hope this clarify it.

[SeijiSensei]

Angela Merkel has a Ph.D in quantum chemistry. Yes, she probably didn't make a whole lot in Communist East Germany, but by any other standard she'd be among the elite.

Boris Johnson went to Eton and Oxford. Tony Blair attended a couple of "public" (i.e, private) schools and eventually ended up at Oxford. Tribune of the people Jeremy Corbyn grew up in Yew Tree Manor, a 17th-century country house which was once part of the Duke of Sutherland's Lilleshall estate.

Abe Shinzo's grandfather is described as the "de facto 'economic' king of occupied China, Korea, and Manchukuo, a Japanese puppet state in Northern China."

Xi Jinping's father was a highly-placed official in the PRC after the Revolution. Xi himself studied chemical engineering.

Political elites generally come from elite groups in society. It's hardly just an American thing.

(Based on their biographies on Wikipedia.)

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Historically, though, 38-40% seems to be about the minimum a Presidential candidate gets regardless of how unpopular he is.

I think I can talk for the rest of the world in saying that no USA president has been as nefarious as Trump, so him still having that much support after he has showed for years his true colors is astounding.

What this means IMO is that even if the repubs lose this election, nothing will stop them from having an even nastier candidate, they know their base will support them no questions asked and they will have four (or eight) years to attack the dems from the comfy position of the defeated opposition, heightening any mistakes and spinning anything they can into "democrats are evil". The really scary thing is that next time said candidate might be smart, really smart.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Magin

The point of discussion is because if American is to really live up to being the Leader of the Free World (a title that apparently Germany is currently in the best position to hold, ironically), we have to point out how broken American politics is, how much bullshit has been added to the system such that we've been indoctrinated to think "Oh, anyone can become President" when in reality it's still just an elite few in either party. Of course, I can always break out the current political joke: "The current Presidential campaign is between a predator and a rapist." (some jokes go a step further and say, Who's who? Exactly...)

The post above this one points out that Biden's family has been through some hardships. Okay, cool. But let's not kid ourselves: I suspect a lot of Biden's popularity comes through on name recognition alone for being Obama's VP. And THAT is another elite title, negating his background life.

... of course, I will also admit that maybe I'm spending too much time on the politics section of Reddit, where apparently Europe is the political model that America should strive for, and that even the most left-wing candidates in America just barely qualify for being left-wing in European countries; they're mostly right-wing when compared to Europe's politics.

If you're going to count a long, successful political career as a minus, your ideal is what, a high school dropout working for minimum wage who's never actually held an office (or even an office job) of any kind?

To add to SeijiSensei, of the 8 presidents of the 5th French Republic, only one (Sarkozy) didn't go through one of our big name schools. (And he was still a lawyer.)

[Ithekro]

The nationalist love Trump because he has kept his campaign promises. They want to disengage with the rest of the world. They want America for Americans. "Made in America" stuff only on shelves. They want the wall. They want all industry back within US borders, and run by US citizens only. Those are the people who will vote for Trump without a shadow of a doubt.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The nationalist love Trump because he has kept his campaign promises. They want to disengage with the rest of the world. They want America for Americans. "Made in America" stuff only on shelves. They want the wall. They want all industry back within US borders, and run by US citizens only. Those are the people who will vote for Trump without a shadow of a doubt.

The irony of it all. The nationalist are the same people that wanted the USA to stay out of both world wars, you know, the ones that made "america great" because otherwise the USA would be like Brazil, a big country with lots of potential but lacking the capital to pull any world leadership. The Nationalist take their whole script from Tokugawa Iemitsu, who closed japan to the whole world (so that the elites could rule at leisure). We all know how that plan ended, the irony!

As for fulfilling his promised, no, the wall has not been built, that is a big fat lie. He has not withdrawn troops from Afghanistan. Here is the list of key campaign promises, but I would say even his most staunch supporters are far from being "too tired of winning".

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...s/trumpometer/

The simple truth is that repubs will not vote democrat because they have been brainwashed into thinking "democrats are evil" even though biden/kamala is more similar to reagan than kennedy.

[James Rye]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Interesting, the DNC and Kamala did not seem to take it so well as you though. Here let me refresh your memory:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/o1-CRrMDSLs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

When Tulsi exposed her record in this exchange Kamala had no defense, as you can clearly see in the video. Kamala's campaign tanked after this moment, she suspended her candidacy shortly after, even though she was the favorite leading into that debate night.

Now all that the Trump campaign has to do is hit her repeatedly on her record while trying to look responsible on the economy. A few good debate nights where he trashes Joe Biden by being condescending and making fun of him would also increase his chances of reelection.

It is so sad to see this rigged game being played out right before our eyes. Just like 2016, we are forced to choose between two horrible candidates. Meanwhile, the DNC and the media continue to ignore the progressive candidates, such as Bernie, Tulsi and Yang even though these candidates draw a lot of enthusiasm and attention.

If you really think that both Trump and Biden are equal in horribleness then you have a reality problem. Also Biden cannot ignore the progressive Dems they got too much momentum right now. He picked Harris because she doesn't scare anyone off whereas any other pick would have scared one part of the votership away. And with the electoral system he needs every vote everywhere to win against the system favoring minorities. He just knows that he can then deal with the progressive demands when he is in power not before as that would just turn off the rep voters he needs turn to win against Trump.
Seriously a system where a guy with 60% of all votes can lose to a guy with 40% of all votes is an incredible idiotic system.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'd say you have a problem if you look at the FOUR past years and still think that FOUR MORE YEARS of THAT is fine.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The nationalist love Trump because he has kept his campaign promises. They want to disengage with the rest of the world. They want America for Americans. "Made in America" stuff only on shelves. They want the wall. They want all industry back within US borders, and run by US citizens only. Those are the people who will vote for Trump without a shadow of a doubt.

He didn't kept them though.
He didn't end Obamacare, despite two years of owning the hours and Senate, that was super embarrassing.
Even the tax breaks was a huge in-fighting and only the 1% got a tax break for the rest of their lives, the rest only had it for two years and now pay the old tax as before.
They couldn't disengage from the world! USA farmers still want to sell their soybeans to China, USA customers still want to buy cars made in Germany and Japan, USA firms still like to buy Canadian alloy instead of American and so on.
And even Trump's own merchandise is mostly made in China, so much for "Made in America", nobody wants to pay 20$ for a T-shirt.
The Wall never got its money approved by Congress, even Reps don't like it. The money it got was due moving military funding around with bs arguments. And even then the wall promised didn't got built, they mostly repaired the sections which were due for repairing anyway.
And the industries don't give a shit about US workers as we have seen in this Pandemic. They just get robots or illegals to do the jobs.
Saying they vote for him because he keeps his promises is wrong. It is correct to say they vote for him because it "feels" like he keeps his promises but he doesn't.

[Neki Ecko]

Believe me, this election is like a Turd Sandwich versus Giant Douche, i dont like any one of them and they are going to make this country worst but the reason why i am not voting for Trump because of his actions during COVID*19, if he just listen to the science, shut down the country and tell everybody to freakin wear a mask then he would be a shoo in even after all of the corruption that he brought into that office.

My kids started school last week and they had a couple of cases already there, imagine if they bring it home to me, I wont be here at all or if I take it to work (I work at a prison, that I have to talk to inmates face to face).

Yea, it is hard to deal with this, its very hard to even choose (did a mail in already). If we stay with Trump, the next four years is going to be likes that we never seen since the Civil War.

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by Neki Ecko

Wow, you are just going there are you. I swear, I will like to tell you what you really are but I am not going down that rabbit hole. But I think she will be a great VP.

Yes I am going there. Biden picked (or had picked for him) an awful VP and you will tell yourself it is fine because vote blue no matter who.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

What do you expect? At this moment in time the only strategy repubs have left is attacking Biden and now Kamala because there is no amount of spinning that can make Donald Trump look like a viable option for anyone with a sound mind.

So expect the attacks to continue ad nausem.

Tell us why you didn't vote for Kamala in the primary.

[Neki Ecko]

Originally Posted by ramlaen

Yes I am going there. Biden picked (or had picked for him) an awful VP and you will tell yourself it is fine because vote blue no matter who.



Tell us why you didn't vote for Kamala in the primary.

First of all, I am not blue or red because I hate politics and don't care about it. She might not be perfect like the rest of the field but atleast she might be able to deal with Trump and his attacks.

But right now, like in my last post, the reason why Trump isnt getting my vote is because of the COVID*19 respond and that he should done more than just close down the borders in the beginning.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by ramlaen

Tell us why you didn't vote for Kamala in the primary.

Because I am a mexican living in Mexico and have never make it a secret, for years now my location appears below my picture avatar.

Wait for the "I no longer care what he says since he can't vote in the next USA election".

[Grifis]

I'm cool with 4 years of Trump. Got my raise, gas is still cheap and economy was good. I have no reason to hate him. Trump's alright. He's kind of unconventional, politically incorrect, and I like that he's not a pretentious intellect. I enjoy seeing how he trolls his haters. I would vote for him if not for my jinxing ways. Right now, COVID and BLM are being used as political tools toward the Democrats' advantage. Of course, the media is pro-Democrat and they've been talking Trump bad 24/7 to brainwash the public pretty good while hiding anything bad on the Democrats. They've done a good job at division as I see haters here, there, and everywhere. It's either that Trump doesn't have many supporters or that they've been silenced or Trump haters are crazier and more obsessive.

Like 4 years ago, the Democrats have the advantage and even a whole lot more so now. If they lose again, that'll be pretty bad. I'm interested to find out how the Americans feel about the two sides as fanfare getting a little extreme. (I've been wondering why Democrats are portrayed as good guys and Republicans as bad guys for quite some time but I'm too lazy to look into it.)