Code Geass Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[velvet nightmare]

it's the same situation as was in the ghettos

half the japanese were with zero, the other half were not

at lease we know zero is back and will stop pussy footing around since the last time he got scared after finding out it was his first friend that's beens screwing around with his plans

[Juvyniled]

I will try my best to remain objective in determining the pros and cons of the matter:

Positive:
- Prior to this, there has been no real result towards making an attempt to improve the Eleven's condition. Not by Suzaku nor by Lelouch.
- This proposal will not undermine Zero's efforts because he is fighting for justice. As long as he doesn't assume a position as a champion of the rebels, then the Elevens should likely not be punished as a result of what he is doing. (This is primarily what the public believes to be the function of the Order).

Negative:
- This proposal will undermine Zero's efforts because it effectively limits what he can do. If he plans to reconquer Japan, he'll have established himself against the empire and this proposal will likely fail.
- Euphemia's decision is not carefully thought out, has no solid support from those around her, and her reputation gives the proposal a bad image. The proposal will divide the Elevens and Britannians further apart and will further increase tensions between the two groups.
- The terms of the proposal are too minimal to effect a change. The area designated for the Special Administrative Region is too small to include all the Elevens. Euphemia does not have enough authority to enforce tolerance and those who are still living outside of the area will still be subjected to discrimination.
- Euphemia's reputation will diminish given her initial decision to knight an Eleven. She will lose much of the influence she had as a Britannian princess, which was close to nothing already.

---
So really, the negative factors of the proposal greatly outweigh the positive. In the long-run the proposal would likely collapse. Had Euphemia done several things to improve the proposal, it could have likely worked, ie. gaining much more support from her superiors, slowly voicing her opinion on the matter to others and gaining some approval, finding a means of enforcing it, and expanding the designated region. The end result will likely be Euphemia completely destroying her image with the Britannian people, losing the trust of the Elevens once the proposal collapses, and further increasing the hostility between the groups.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Positive:

- This proposal will not undermine Zero's efforts because he is fighting for justice. As long as he doesn't assume a position as a champion of the rebels, then the Elevens should likely not be punished as a result of what he is doing.

but the important factor here is that there wont be any more need for zero in the eyes of the freed japanese citizens thus zero's efforts up til now has been wasted if noone is going to be listening to his flute anymore...i can only imagine a lot of his less important knights leaving his forces causing a decrease in power and eventually lacking the influence to be able to achieve his goal...which is to destroy britannia...also it would mean that zero has a lot less excuse to be a thorn in britannia's side without other rebelling to him for unprovoked attacks...making the point fail >.<

[Missilebuster]

alright so i was watching this and somewhere near four minutes into it the student council leader gets on the mic and says and with this noise we will start the festival (or something along these lines), with the creepy masterbating girl holding the mic up to nunally who is sitting in the foreground from the student council leader girl, but behind her, so it looked to me like the nina (masterbator) was holding it up to her ass, and she was preparing to fart into it. I lol'd so hard

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

but the important factor here is that there wont be any more need for zero in the eyes of the freed japanese citizens thus zero's efforts up til now has been wasted if noone is going to be listening to his flute anymore...i can only imagine a lot of his less important knights leaving his forces causing a decrease in power and eventually lacking the influence to be able to achieve his goal...which is to destroy britannia...also it would mean that zero has a lot less excuse to be a thorn in britannia's side without other rebelling to him for unprovoked attacks...making the point fail >.<

Aohige pointed this earlier. The Special Administrative Region is an area around Mt.Fuji. It's not going be large enough to hold all the Elevens, so anyone outside of that region is exempt from the privileges bestowed by the proposal. Zero's order would still be necessary to protect the Elevens outside of the region (since the order in the view of the public is a champion of justice). However, we know that Lelouch isn't out to protect everyone, and that is why the proposal undermines his efforts. I suppose I should change that, since it is really a positive aspect in the eyes of the public. Zero's efforts up to this point weren't entirely to free Japan; they were to undermine the efforts of the empire. Now, the original members initially joined up with Zero because of what he dictated to them initially - liberating Japan. But the members who joined up after did so to oppose the unjust acts of both the empire and the other extreme rebel factions. This new proposal might in fact cause the original members to think otherwise, but they'd still remain with him until greater results appear.

[Twisted Reality]

Well in a sense, Lelouch is out to liberate Japan. He's interested in establishing an country that isn't ruled either by Chinese or Britannian interests, but by a more localized independent government. That's pretty much a forgone objective for him if he hopes to crush the Brittanian government (and a revolution in one place tends to spread to other oppressed nations). At any rate, Diethard could very easily roll out his propaganda machine and show Zero's involvement in warding off the Chinese invasion and generally run a PR campaign. Diethard does have a few cards to play and I suspect he'll really come into his own here. Really, he could make a very strong case if he demonstrates that Euphemia is unable to follow through on her promise because she is either too powerless or weak to make a real difference. I see Zero making a very publicized stunt to consolidate his public reputation (i.e. perhaps with a side order of deception). I really doubt the Order will go through a real leadership crisis because Zero is generally seen to be pragmatic. In any case, I don't think the old grandpas up in Kyoto will stand idly by while Brittanian finishes assimilating Japan.

Shneizel (or however it's spelled) also strikes me as a cunning tactician and statesman. Since he gave the go-ahead for Euphemia's announcement, one question's his motives. The obvious possibility is that it does weaken Lelouch's political stance and it could also provoke Zero to act. However, his ability to set a trap for Zero seems doubtful...so I'd guess this is a simple PR move. Note that he also doesn't actually have to make the public announcement himself and can also reap the benefits of the pro-Britannian Japanese by using Euphemia as a public face for this controversial policy. Basically, when Lelouch starts seeing Euphemia as a backstabbing shrew, he probably should be instead wondering who is using her.

[Juvyniled]

I suppose Lelouch could remove the Britannian presence in Japan and then call for support in taking down the empire. The Japanese would likely then support him to prevent future chances of an invasion.

[ShigeruChan]

Originally Posted by Twisted Reality

Shneizel (or however it's spelled) also strikes me as a cunning tactician and statesman. Since he gave the go-ahead for Euphemia's announcement, one question's his motives. The obvious possibility is that it does weaken Lelouch's political stance and it could also provoke Zero to act. However, his ability to set a trap for Zero seems doubtful.

Well he's supposed to be the only one who has ever beaten Lelouch in chess so i'm assuming that means he's both mentally and tactically in par with Leleouch so setting a successful trap for Zero isn't really that far fetched.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by cf18

That's is just bull shit. The best you can get at HK is the "oversea citizen" status, which mean nothing and give you no right to live in UK.

wrong.



HK citizens were classed as "British Overseas Territories citizen"

according to the definition of a BOTC:

A BOTC is eligible to apply for registration as a British citizen based on his status as a BOTC under s4A of the British Nationality Act 1981

* he is not solely connected with the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus
* he has not previously renounced British citizenship
* he is of good character
* After 5 years residence in the United Kingdom, Channel Islands or Isle of Man, and holding Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) or its equivalent for at least 12 months, a BOTC may apply for registration as a British citizen under section 4 of the British Nationality Act 1981.
* If married to a British citizen, it is possible to apply for naturalisation as a British citizen after 3 years residence in the United Kingdom provided ILR is held on the day of application.


Registration is discretionary but will not normally be refused unless there is a specific reason.

This option confers British citizenship otherwise than by descent and hence children born subsequently outside the United Kingdom will normally have access to British citizenship.

Next time, do some research first before you run your mouth.

Back on topic, the only course i see for Zero to make the Puritans turn on Euffiy's idea, then regroup the BOoK to turn it around as a indication that they cannot trust the B.E and carry on with his plan, either that, assassinate all potential leadership and let them blunder about, before come sweeping in as a hero.

After all we all know he won't hesitate to be ruthless in turning against those he would consider allies or foes to his advantage, the question is that the shinzel (sp?) person has shown an indication of his worth, after all he approved of Euffy plan, he saw how it would undermine the resistance.

[cf18]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

wrong.
Next time, do some research first before you run your mouth.

No I was not wrong at all. Unlike a real citizen, UK can refuse any oversea citizen to stay in UK. Even those got a BNO still need some "Residence Permit" to stay in UK.

Go ahead, do your research.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British..._and_Hong_Kong

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The British Empire had its bad periods, but it never got so cocky as to treat its colonies like numbers. At the very least, those in the colonies can become full citizens. None of that "honorary" rubbish.

You know, now that we know a bit better about the system, with such a system and a colonial attitude, wouldn't the "honorary britannians" outnumber the citizens? Not to mention it's a pretty poor assimilation method.

Speaking of which, are there any other details about Euphie's SAR establishment other than equal rights?

[Thujalvi]

And more importantly, has anyone seen if the Otacon sub is any good?

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO

wrong.



HK citizens were classed as "British Overseas Territories citizen"

according to the definition of a BOTC:




Next time, do some research first before you run your mouth.

Back on topic, the only course i see for Zero to make the Puritans turn on Euffiy's idea, then regroup the BOoK to turn it around as a indication that they cannot trust the B.E and carry on with his plan, either that, assassinate all potential leadership and let them blunder about, before come sweeping in as a hero.

After all we all know he won't hesitate to be ruthless in turning against those he would consider allies or foes to his advantage, the question is that the shinzel (sp?) person has shown an indication of his worth, after all he approved of Euffy plan, he saw how it would undermine the resistance.

I see your point on t hat i think a lot of whats going to happen depends on Shinzel does and what his plans are. Out of all the siblings he seems to be the most capable and dangerous, dangerous because of his mind he plans within plans. He even Corneila eating out of his hand and blushing like crazy.

After giving some thought I will cast away my vote for the assassination of the royal family. Killing the royal family will leave a huge gap in the Britannia's political structure not mention the people who would fight over control the empire. It could plunge the whole country into a civil war, giving other countries like China to assert their will. Japan would still be recovering and would have not the man power or the resources to withstand an all out attack from another country. The result would Japan back in the same situation just under another countries thumb

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Thujalvi

And more importantly, has anyone seen if the Otacon sub is any good?

the Order's Daanan? see FMP.

it's good for stealth and deployment purposes (18-20), but won't stand much chance in a fight. they'll probably have it fire some sea to air missles at some point. >:3

[ThoHell]

Wow oh wow, things are getting heated up. Lulu is pissed..... going to be sad seeing friends face off against each other in a battle tot he death.

[protonic]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I see your point on t hat i think a lot of whats going to happen depends on Shinzel does and what his plans are. Out of all the siblings he seems to be the most capable and dangerous, dangerous because of his mind he plans within plans. He even Corneila eating out of his hand and blushing like crazy.

After giving some thought I will cast away my vote for the assassination of the royal family. Killing the royal family will leave a huge gap in the Britannia's political structure not mention the people who would fight over control the empire. It could plunge the whole country into a civil war, giving other countries like China to assert their will. Japan would still be recovering and would have not the man power or the resources to withstand an all out attack from another country. The result would Japan back in the same situation just under another countries thumb

but you are forgetting something really important, lulu is also part of that royal family, if the royal family was assassinated lulu could gain the throne

[Juvyniled]

He's at the bottom of the list. That's a lot of siblings to go through, even if he has no trouble doing so.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by protonic

but you are forgetting something really important, lulu is also part of that royal family, if the royal family was assassinated lulu could gain the throne

Successors are chosen by the rankings of their mothers. Marianne was quite low on the list and when she died, Lelouch lost his 'right' to the throne. Not to mention he renounced his title and such so his Dad pretty much disowned him.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Successors are chosen by the rankings of their mothers. Marianne was quite low on the list and when she died, Lelouch lost his 'right' to the throne. Not to mention he renounced his title and such so his Dad pretty much disowned him.

No prince ever stop being a prince, unless the empire falls or the prince dies. Guess which one Lulu is organising?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You know, now that we know a bit better about the system, with such a system and a colonial attitude, wouldn't the "honorary britannians" outnumber the citizens? Not to mention it's a pretty poor assimilation method.

Speaking of which, are there any other details about Euphie's SAR establishment other than equal rights?

The Proles outnumbered the Ingsoc party member's overwhelming in 1984, but it was shown that the Proles would never rebel by Winston Smith later on. This is due to a failure of distinction by the early Winston Smith in recogonizing the difference between Power By Coercion and Real Power. Winston and I suppose some of Area 11's rebels such as the Liberation Front which was wiped early assumed that the Proles were subjected to Power By Coercion from the Ingos and that in sheer number they would overwhelm the government if they realized their own power and rebelled. However, in reality the Proles had been weakened to such an extent by the Ingsoc's constant mental assaults that they had granted the Ingsoc true power and would thus never rebel openly.

I think the Honorary system is likely set up in the same vein, most likely to kill dissent in Japan by the next generation. It's not as outright frightening as Youth Leagues such as Der Hitlerjunge, but it can be just as effective if they can find more people like Suzaku to act as models for the system. Think about it, a dashing charasmatic handsome son of the former Prime Minister of Japan working with the jewel of the Brittanian royal family to establish a new order. They are unbelievably dangerous to any chance of future Japanese Sovereignty. If Euphemia's plan is allowed to start going through, don't be alarmed as it may very well be a dangerous trap and trump card for Britannia with Euphemia's own good grace ultimately leading the Japanese to a worse situation than they have yet been in. Perhaps refrain will in some way be involved, who knows?