Mondai-Ji-tachi ga Isekai Kara Kuru Sō Desu yo? (Light Novel)

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Mars Mode

If I remember right, since when was Izayoi a bully?

That's because he isn't one. Well, there's Kuro Usagi, but then just about everyone bullies her, she's almost like a buttmonkey.

[Feng Lengshun]

There are more than one ways to create pressure. There's moral decisions, social problems, romantic tension... countless. Mostly with decisions but there are also situations where you have no power over (like Kud's scenario in Little Busters!).

It's his enemies that he HAD beaten. Those do not count. What about other people who just decides he is a threat that must be killed (but wouldn't have bothered him if he was acting normally) or his friends? His friends "not thinking highly of him" is different from his friends actually hating/disliking him. With their level of egos, I would have thought that he would have rubbed them the wrong ways, but apparently not.

Izayoi's a bully from how he tend to use his power to force his way though. And mostly from how he treated Kuro Usagi. I get that he gets better after a while, but he still likes to act like an asshole.

There are many, maaaany possible flaws a character could have. In Izayoi, it would be his ego and pride. When Gilgamesh had them, it had led to his death. There's also Shirou and Saber being too idealistic which had led both becoming a lonely hero/king that while praised by many, was not liked by many too (an example of 'flawless' people becoming hated instead of beloved). Kodaka from Haganai has his frightfulness from stepping out of the comfort zone and breaking the status quo, which's consequence has started to manifest. Keima has his fixation on 2D world leading him to make many mistakes and not taking up preventive actions, thus leading him to dealing with more troubles than he should. Simon has his recklessness and hot-bloodedness leading to him getting framed for crimes and before then, the death of Kamina. Kamina himself has his own easily frightened heart but he has the strength of character to overcome it in addition to being taken out of the picture relatively quick. Asura from Asura's Wrath has his anger causing him to fail in protecting the Girl that looks like his daughter and then leading him to a berserk that almost killed him. All of the girls in Madoka Magica has always chosen a short-term solution to their long-term problems that leads them to regrets and deaths (the exception being Madoka who chooses her wish well but even that has its own consequences). Romeo and Juliet has their impulsiveness in love leading to their deaths. Brolli DiamondBack from my favorite story Ditr has his selfishness but because he faces his problem he eventually managed to grow his self-awareness but eventually he DO dies (the story wasn't about overcoming his death, but gaining redemption before his death).

Not all character flaws would result to death of course, but all character flaws CAN result to problem that eventually leads one to one's death (or any severe repercussion) if one doesn't have the strength of character to overcome it. And a character being able to overcome all problem that life throws is just unrealistic because everyone just fails sometimes. Or does any of you never had a failure from the moment you were born? I sure am have failed from time to time, and I'm pretty sure everyone has. Because that's what makes a person humane. Only God doesn't have a problem that He can't solve (a real omnipotent God, that is). And I don't want to read the story of a God because what kind of story would that be if the protagonist's conflict could always be easily solved? And by the way, losing just to gain more power doesn't count in my book unless that lose has an impact to the character's mentality and maturity.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

Izayoi's a bully from how he tend to use his power to force his way though.

Your definition of bully is a bit off if that's what you're basing it on.

And mostly from how he treated Kuro Usagi. I get that he gets better after a while, but he still likes to act like an asshole.

As I said, basically everyone treats Kuro Usagi like that, so unless you're willing to call all of them bullies...

[Feng Lengshun]

No one as consistent and the same amount of Izayoi. And I'm actually willing. Besides, you forgot about Jin and how he has troubled him from time to time (like forcing him to follow his plans without prior discussions).

But still, as I have said, things MIGHT change with a new volume that ISN'T a short story. So far from what I've seen he is undergoing a character development and succumbing to his weakness, but they might just have him not change at all but discovering more power which IMO is the final nail in the coffin that this LN in the end is just a standard Shounen Story. Giving him a flaw inside him that could make him falls would be a counter to it, but you guys seems so much against it since you believe in him being okay to be a Gary Stu whose function the story is just to be cool and badass. I'm not, I want a dynamic character who actually grows into an admirable person even without his powers, costumes, or backstory. A character who is admirable for having a great strength of character.

[Mars Mode]

His principal rule he abydes by is to not use his strength to "bully" the weak.

A rule he gained after meeting Canaria. After all when he was a kid that was his way of seeking attention, one of the reasons why he came to Little Garden is to find someone equal to him.

When he tries something forcefully is because he has no way of speaking his thoughts fast and the oportunity may pass by, besides he is a realist seeking for romanticist. His decisions are sound and he places a hig amount of trust in the people he deems worthy, Jin sees him as someone to aim and Izayoi treats him like someone would treat a little brother and a student. Often pitting him against different sittuations to help him grow as a leader.

At the beggining of the novel Izayoi would have cared less about the community when they tried to trick him, and he was seeking for a place to enjoy himself, therefore possily losing his opportunity for enjoyment, but even so he thought of a way for the goal of the community to be accomplished.

His biggest and maybe only flaw is that he needs entertainment as any human being, and he finds it difficult specially since he is a realist, even when he doesnt try he sees everyone as a weaker existence.

[goblehook]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Check around page 12.

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

And 7 and 17, I think. On translation, I remember there are persons doing them, one on BT direct and another has his own blog where he published them too in addition to doing it in BT.

Thank You! Thank YOu very much guys!!!

[Feng Lengshun]

^^ Exactly that. There, several ways for Izayoi to fall and rise as a more mature person from that, right? Of course, that would cut the story short, hence why there are character sub-plots.

But still, he's still too perfect for my taste. And I'm still not as entertained as I do with JoJo's characters and their crazy usage of powers, and when all he has is "cool attitude" and "all you have is a hammer" power, it kind of gets boring pretty fast. It's not like his tactics are as varied as Jotaro either nor does his line is as cool as his... so I wished that at least we would have gotten some character development as compensation but everyone here seems to not want him to develop as a character because "He would lose his awesomeness".

Hey, Emiya Shirou had character developments after succumbing and facing his flaws, and not only does that makes him more awesome, he actually still retain his heroic-ness (focused to Sakura in HF). Facing a flaws doesn't exactly mean eliminating them, it just means becoming self-aware and thus able to grow as a person (look at P4 as an example).

[Jirachier]

I think you're just reading something that you don't like, but the reality is that there is nothing wrong with Izayoi as a character, in fact he is one of my favorites.

It's his enemies that he HAD beaten. Those do not count. What about other people who just decides he is a threat that must be killed (but wouldn't have bothered him if he was acting normally) or his friends? His friends "not thinking highly of him" is different from his friends actually hating/disliking him. With their level of egos, I would have thought that he would have rubbed them the wrong ways, but apparently not.

Where did you come up with the rule that enemies do not count ?
As for his friends, they do not actually dislike him ? So what, their relationship keep could have developed in that direction but accepting who he is is also understandable, he might seem arrogant and all but they all know his true self, they might be a little jealous but that is it, you make it sound that there was only ONE way for their feelings for him to develop and that is hatred, which in reality was just a possibility, it did not have to become reality.

There are many, maaaany possible flaws a character could have. In Izayoi, it would be his ego and pride. When Gilgamesh had them, it had led to his death. There's also Shirou and Saber being too idealistic which had led both becoming a lonely hero/king that while praised by many, was not liked by many too (an example of 'flawless' people becoming hated instead of beloved). Kodaka from Haganai has his frightfulness from stepping out of the comfort zone and breaking the status quo, which's consequence has started to manifest. Keima has his fixation on 2D world leading him to make many mistakes and not taking up preventive actions, thus leading him to dealing with more troubles than he should. Simon has his recklessness and hot-bloodedness leading to him getting framed for crimes and before then, the death of Kamina. Kamina himself has his own easily frightened heart but he has the strength of character to overcome it in addition to being taken out of the picture relatively quick. Asura from Asura's Wrath has his anger causing him to fail in protecting the Girl that looks like his daughter and then leading him to a berserk that almost killed him. All of the girls in Madoka Magica has always chosen a short-term solution to their long-term problems that leads them to regrets and deaths (the exception being Madoka who chooses her wish well but even that has its own consequences). Romeo and Juliet has their impulsiveness in love leading to their deaths. Brolli DiamondBack from my favorite story Ditr has his selfishness but because he faces his problem he eventually managed to grow his self-awareness but eventually he DO dies (the story wasn't about overcoming his death, but gaining redemption before his death).

You keep saying character flaws as if Izayoi was a perfect human being which he isn't, he is arrogant, he can be insensitive, disrespectful, etc. Those are actual flaws but what you want is for him to lose face/be under pressure, which is again something that mostly happens to shounen hotblooded MC, and like I said before, he only had it easy before because his power-level both in strength and mentally was too high for the higher digits gates, of course he's having it easy, but right now he's having to face a monster he cannot even hope to defeat.

Not all character flaws would result to death of course, but all character flaws CAN result to problem that eventually leads one to one's death (or any severe repercussion) if one doesn't have the strength of character to overcome it. And a character being able to overcome all problem that life throws is just unrealistic because everyone just fails sometimes. Or does any of you never had a failure from the moment you were born? I sure am have failed from time to time, and I'm pretty sure everyone has. Because that's what makes a person humane. Only God doesn't have a problem that He can't solve (a real omnipotent God, that is). And I don't want to read the story of a God because what kind of story would that be if the protagonist's conflict could always be easily solved? And by the way, losing just to gain more power doesn't count in my book unless that lose has an impact to the character's mentality and maturity.

Like I just said, he's not someone who can overcome EVERYTHING in life, he was only overcoming them because at the time his skill level allowed him to take it easy, it's not going to always be like that.
And for him to fail in his life, we've barely been following his story since a few months, we have never seen him before he was 15, what makes you certain he has never had problems back then ?
And it's very realistic for ONE person in the entire world to be able to overcome everything that life throws at him, there are billions of humans alive, and much more if we consider the entire history, it's very realistic that one or two were blessed with unmatched talents/luck/wealth/etc that made them have an easy life, we're not following the story of a regular person here.
More importantly, saying that he isn't human because he succeeds in his tasks isn't THE defining trait of humanity, you could be the smartest person in the world and able easily learn whatever you want and put it into practice, it doesn't, but you could still have emotional problems, the two are separate things.

[Mars Mode]

Well that wont happen if he doesnt find someone to rely on, or someone to challenge himself against.

As it stands he has already reached a pretty well characterization already, he is a great person, and he does what he has to do if necessary, he is realist and doest mind the small stuff. What I found enjoyable is how he gains fondness for the community and the comrades he is spending his time with, and his straightforwardness when he is dealing with things.

I think I mentioned before, but although I enjoy a highly complicated setting and enjoy a crazy way to use powers, there is also something called the "simple is best". I probably am a easy to entertain person. Yay for me

[Feng Lengshun]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

I think you're just reading something that you don't like, but the reality is that there is nothing wrong with Izayoi as a character, in fact he is one of my favorites.

Where did you come up with the rule that enemies do not count ?
As for his friends, they do not actually dislike him ? So what, their relationship keep could have developed in that direction but accepting who he is is also understandable, he might seem arrogant and all but they all know his true self, they might be a little jealous but that is it, you make it sound that there was only ONE way for their feelings for him to develop and that is hatred, which in reality was just a possibility, it did not have to become reality.

Because whether he acts like a bastard or not, enemies will be enemies. Whether you're being courteous or not, the enemy faction will still try to kill you. His friend disliking him is just one possible way to demonstrate how his flaws effects other people, there are other ways to do it.

And Izayoi is nowhere near my favorite character. To me, he's just a Japanese Dante (well, Dante is Japanese from the start) minus all the character development that he gets in DMC3 or by the end DmC.

You keep saying character flaws as if Izayoi was a perfect human being which he isn't, he is arrogant, he can be insensitive, disrespectful, etc. Those are actual flaws but what you want is for him to lose face/be under pressure, which is again something that mostly happens to shounen hotblooded MC, and like I said before, he only had it easy before because his power-level both in strength and mentally was too high for the higher digits gates, of course he's having it easy, but right now he's having to face a monster he cannot even hope to defeat.

Shounen hotblooded MCs aren't the only one that gets pressure. For starter, "under pressure" can refer to many situations in life/story where a person/character gets, well, anything that pressures his heart. This is usually comes from decision or the impact of a decision in stories. Has his decision actually led him into troubles or has he been troubled by any decision?

Like I just said, he's not someone who can overcome EVERYTHING in life, he was only overcoming them because at the time his skill level allowed him to take it easy, it's not going to always be like that.
And for him to fail in his life, we've barely been following his story since a few months, we have never seen him before he was 15, what makes you certain he has never had problems back then ?

I don't care about backstory, Hitler had a pretty sorry backstory and that doesn't make him less of an asshole in the main story, the WWII. Backstory aren't really needed in a story, only to explain why the character acts the way he is. And so far, the only reason why his backstory was anything relevant to the plot was because of Canaria.

And it's very realistic for ONE person in the entire world to be able to overcome everything that life throws at him, there are billions of humans alive, and much more if we consider the entire history, it's very realistic that one or two were blessed with unmatched talents/luck/wealth/etc that made them have an easy life, we're not following the story of a regular person here.
More importantly, saying that he isn't human because he succeeds in his tasks isn't THE defining trait of humanity, you could be the smartest person in the world and able easily learn whatever you want and put it into practice, it doesn't, but you could still have emotional problems, the two are separate things.

And what problems he is actually having right now other than in battle? The problem he has only extend to battle, which I will say, I don't care. Battles does not make a story. The only time I will care about a battle is when it is epic and awesome, but on the grand scheme of the overarching story, the battle itself isn't that important but more of what comes from the battle.

And no, people being born with power will still have to gain the strength of character to overcome it or they will fail. And yes, everyone fails, but some can succeed through hard work, and no, there's no way outside of hardwork. Some has riches from born, but if he don't have the strength of character to handle it, they will fall. The only way to gain strength of character is through experience and hardwork, and there will be time when you fail which is the only way one could actually grow as a person. So yes, I'm pretty much saying that failure is the defining trait of humanity, because can you say that there's anyone that has not failed? And Izayoi is too perfect with not enough demonstrated flaws to counter it.

His problems has only started to surface now. You're acting like I condemn him to forever be a Stu when from the start, I have only said that what I wanted was to see him humanized more. To show his flaws more, which can be used as ammunition for character developments and conflicts. What I want is a good story that remains in my memory for ages to come. Keyword being Want.

Really, why are you acting so angry when I only said how I want him to be a better character? And would you really appreciate it if he stays this monotony from start to finish, though 20+ volumes just being like he is right now? If so, then you might as well just read some stupid OP fanfic where the character was never beaten and everyone thinks he is so cool. There are some well-written crapfic like that after all. Oh, and yes, he is being beaten right now, and what I've said was that how it could be used to humanize him more. But what we've got so far was how "He was just holding back" and "His friends are important for him" which is too much of a cliche (that I have to go through almost everyday in both fanfic and published works).

His arrogancy still haven't really bitten him the ass. It might beat him the ass in the next volume, but when all I've got was short stories, my patience is wearing thin and the development that comes has better be worth the wait. And I will say, the best kind of character development is the one that comes from the characters' deep characters themselves--otherwise it would feel rather asspull-ish--which would includes his strength and flaw as a character. And I'm not really liking this story so far because what I've been getting is just "cool and awesome-ness" which doesn't make a good story. To me, this story felt like a standard shounen story that everyone is "Ooooh"-ing because it's in LN form. But I'm willing to wait for a while before I'm dropping him because it has potential so far, and it's still early in the story. If this had happened in the 12+ volume, I totally would have hated him and drop it (similar to what I did with Campione!).

And I'll say it right now, I have a very high standard when it comes to a story. My standard would be stories that actually touches about humanity and life in someway through its theme (even if indirectly like Star Wars) and actually being meaningful instead of just about cool-ness and badassery. My time is limited, so why should I care about a story that does not really add anything to me other than some dumb and brainless coolness? The only soft spot I have is good comedy, balance of dramas, and character interactions, most of which is what makes me tolerate this story even though the MC is making me really want to drop it.

Sorry, but I've grown too cynical (well, not really) with all the crapfics I have to deal with everyday and this protagonist is really rubbing me the wrong way. Well, at least it isn't Mahouka level broken which I drop so quickly like a hot potato. The fact that the story doesn't always focus on him helps too. So... unless they actually manage to make Izayoi a legitimately good and balanced character that is actually human-like, then I'm on the opinion that "This story is better without him".

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun

And what problems he is actually having right now other than in battle?

There's the fact that he still has no clue what on Earth he really is, the fact that he's such an abnormal creature that he finds it hard to relate well to people or trust them, something that was made clear a while back.

The problem he has only extend to battle, which I will say, I don't care. Battles does not make a story. The only time I will care about a battle is when it is epic and awesome, but on the grand scheme of the overarching story, the battle itself isn't that important but more of what comes from the battle.

You're probably reading the wrong genre then. Battles play an important role in these stories by nature. Saying something like this is like watching a comedy and complaining about all the jokes.

[Feng Lengshun]

Yeah, and it would be interesting to see it expanded, don't you think? It reminds me of Superman really, except that instead of Sense of Justice as the main strength of the character, Izayoi had Confidence instead. I don't know whether his Strenght trumps his Weakness though, but right now he's on a trial that will show it. We'll just have to wait how that turns out in the next volume...provided he decided that it was enough short stories.

Oh, I do enjoy battles and actions, when they're epic and awesome. Just that my standard on awesomeness and badassery is around JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (well, I can tolerate Campione! and HSDxD level if they have enough good stuff outside of the actions, which DxD did and Campione being so close to manage...not for the drama though, for the myth that is). If it's going to focus on battles anyway. Hey, I can complain to a comedy for being not funny enough, you know? If it's going to be a Shounen story anyway, I'd want it to be at least as awesome as them. I have no complain about this topping them of course... provided they managed to.

[RpR1337]

Man, really, I'll elaborate on my opinion.

In a certain sense, you are about right. Yea, I do admit that in the best case scenario, it's fine if things happen how you want them to. Okay, let him have character development, or whatever.
As for my own opinion, I consider LNs, manga and anime a form of entertainment. And I do believe, if I myself may say so, that most of the people who complain about your point of wiew are talking about something I'm going to lay out from now.

For me, Izayoi's character is fun. Entertaining to the point that in the anime version, I've watched the Algol battle at least 20 times, and the point where he yells "Bitch please!" when kicking the Gift to petrify the world apart (fffansubs english sub) is probably about 200 times on my watchlist. That's because his character for me is highly unusual. I don't particularly have a narrow interest in anime goods (I prefer romantic comedy to some degree, and totally despise any form of tragedy and drama, but that's about it), and I'm nearing 800 series watched, without discrimination in either age or story. And I virtually never ran across such a foul-mouthed, self-centered asshole (well, the only one I can think of off the top of my hat would be Kazuma in Kaze no Stigma, but then again, he didn't have the same "reckless youthful abandon" Izayoi has). For me, he's a fresh new aspect on the main characters.
Reason for that is simply - there are certain "skeletons" (and not that many of them at all) that you can identify as a basis for many kinds of entertainment in this field of work (be it manga, LN, anime, Drama CD, etc etc). To put it simply - they're mostly easy to foresee and calculate. Most of the time, I easily foresee a certain development, to the point where I'd wager on it without a second thought (and believe it or not, I'm mostly right). This one though, is a fresh thing for me, since although it's easy to calculate, it just plays itself out in such a fun way. Make no mistake - I'm not againtst something developing slowly, or not developing at all, but I value my entertainment above all, and I'm not asking for classy english literature when I'm excersising my consumer rights . I just want to have fun, and for me, this series is fun with Izayoi's "high and mighty" attitude. That's why I don't want to change him - I want to see him breaking through every problem with his asshat style. Because for me, it's simply more fun that way.

Not every story needs "depth" imho. In my country (don't want general hate, so I won't name it) 200x's best comedy anime through a vote turned out to be Lucky Star. What the hell is that entire series about? Nothing. Not virtually, but actually nothing. And still it's just damn fun, like instead of choosing between constructive and fun pastimes, you simply goof around and laze, and still make effective use of your own "fun time" (Rosario to Vampire being the worst series though, I'd love to kill someone for that blunder ...). If we go strictly by entertainment, I think things are fine the way they are.

Then again, with the current developments with Azi Dahaka (who's actually a minor demon in eastern mythology, so he really must be considered some underling fodder in this LN too), it's more than likely to turn out into something you're petitioning for, at least to some degree.

[Feng Lengshun]

Well, it would be fine if the genre is just that... but to be honest, it feels a bit... monotony for a novel to be just that. I mean, as a comic/manga, I could accept it, and I do think Izayoi is cool (but wants more).

Yeah, not every story has to have depth, but as a person who views story more as an art... I like my stories well-tied with humanity and meaningful... in other words, I prefer my stories more than entertaining, but "mind-blowing".

I prefer my protagonist to not just be cool, but compelling, believable, and yet humane. I don't want them to be perfect or cool from the start, I like it best when they started as semi-unlikeable but eventually becomes not just cool, but admirable. I like them to be imperfect like humans, and that fact was clearly demonstrated through a failure that comes from his own self rather than others intervention (unless it's the "Situation you can't control" scenario, but even then stems from the MC's powerlessness).

Power isn't really important to me, and so does action scenes. Because really, when your standard is JoJo, there's little that could even get to half its level of awesomeness. Story though... well, even with all the myriads kinds of storyline there are, it doesn't change that good stories are memorable. Clannad, Sakurasou, F/sn, F/z, Waltraute's Marriage, DitR... good stories are being produced even at a slow rate, yet it's constant and proves a possibility to create another memorable story. And what they have in common are theme relating to humanity and life, characters that are compelling, and conflicts that really pushes the characters, yet they manage to trump it even if they do get stumped a little sometimes.

To this point, to me, when I compare this story to other stories I've read, it really wasn't that outstanding. For the "cool" protagonist, it has already been done with Devil May Cry series. Twice, in fact, in DMC3 once and DmC once again. Action... it's not even a fraction of my standard, though it might get to at least F/sn level but it would need to compensate with other stuff too in that case. Drama? Romance? Tragedy? Deep and meaningful storyline? Not yet. Good Comedy that made me laugh on the floor like I did with Danshi Koukousei no Nichijou and Azumanga Daioh? ...no. There's a reason why I kept saying to others who asked to me for help to "Pick a genre and stick to it," while changes in the mood can be useful, there's a fine line between changing the mood to create a compelling story and being mediocre at everything.

This LN is different from other LNs, yes, but when everyday you watch a new anime, read a new story, and/or play a new game... it gets buried under the other references' actual goodness. By no means, this story is bad, it's just that it lacks... flavor, I guess? There haven't been anything really powerful to it that could make me say "Good God, this LN. This story is pure gold. I didn't regret picking this up."

But bottom line, I just hope the next volume is NOT another goddamn short stories. It's really stupid actually, putting a short story in the middle of an intense climax or a great rise of conflict. It kills the pace, mood, and tension/climax. I am more than a little annoyed by it. It's making me want to slap whoever thought it was a good idea.

[Endscape]

A quick question for versionf, what exactly can you tell me about Amalthea?

[Alyxis]

How many times has izayoi used his aurora pillar ability nd in what volume

[versionf]

Originally Posted by Endscape

A quick question for versionf, what exactly can you tell me about Amalthea?

Reincarnation of a divine beast made from adamantium and a goat's pelt (most likely Amalthea's) from no name. Willa doesn't have the power to do a complete ressurection, Amalthea could retain her divine beast's form because of Asuka's ability. She seems to obey Asuka because of the conditions in their contract, don't know the content though, and she's also kind of a mentor to Asuka.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by versionf

Reincarnation of a divine beast made from adamantium and a goat's pelt (most likely Amalthea's) from no name. Willa doesn't have the power to do a complete ressurection, Amalthea could retain her divine beast's form because of Asuka's ability. She seems to obey Asuka because of the conditions in their contract, don't know the content though, and she's also kind of a mentor to Asuka.

So she's a reincarnation of the original Amalthea, then.

[versionf]

Yes.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by versionf

Yes.

I was wondering about that... So what were her abilities, I remember she could transform into a fortress?