2008-05-26, 10:24 | Link #281 | |||||||
Truth Martyr
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And Tak, which part of practical does not encompass economics and design issues? It's still going to be cheaper to make, fix, and repair mechanical gatlings firing shells compared to energy guns. Quote:
Caseless ammo means nothing. All it means is that it's a new form of ammo where you don't have to bother with shell casings, meaning you can pack in just a biiiiit more ammo into one mag. Quote:
Though there's also the A-10's ammo feed mechanism, which is the only plane in the world where it actually takes the shell casings from spent rounds and keeps them in the plane. Oherwise it would become too unbalanced to fly straight. Quote:
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Also, note that Millia was stuck with Valks for the rest of her life, and hasn't been complaining about them, so the loss in rate of firepower can't be too bad. And she was most upset when Gamlin trashed her VF-1J too. Quote:
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Though practically for all intents and purposes both do the job their intended for. Its just that it's a crapload easier to fix a gatling than a beam gun.
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2008-05-26, 10:57 | Link #282 | ||||
Catholic = Cat addiction?
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Although personally I think that 3,000 per minute is a bit of an overkill, but thats UN SPACY's problem. Not mine. And yeah, nobody is disagreeing that ammunition based, independent gun-pod weapon systems are easier to fix, and easier to replace. - Tak |
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2008-05-26, 14:54 | Link #283 |
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There's probably one very good reason for sticking with solid-slug gunpods versus energy weapons as standard issue for VF's - cooling. I'm just trying to imagine how bad it'd be after a few dozen shots, since cooling's more of a problem in space than it is on Earth as you have to have some way to radiate the heat out of the mechanism. One reason caseless rounds haven't taken off so far on Earth is due to the fact that they (at least in the G-11 experiment H&K had in the 1970s) had cooling issues due to the polymer construction and lack of a metal case to take the heat generated by firing the round out of the gun proper. Space may be close to absolute zero in areas which aren't bombarded regularly by the output of a nearby star, but even then cooling something can be a BIT of a problem... especially if you don't want it cracking or melting. IIRC, one of the problems that Hikaru and the others had in escaping the Zentradi ship the first time was that their lasers had issues with burning out or something, which led to them being in there long enough to get captured again (except Max).
The Zentradi and the Protoculture seem to have solved the issue with cooling, but human technology doesn't quite seem to be up to the challenge as of yet, at least not in making them cheaper than kinetic ones, or maybe more reliable than such. Reaction weapons and Macross-style cannons exist, but they seem to be protected by energy fields generated to contain the blast... and their reaction rate kinda sucks. There were lasers on some of the Destroids of the Macross series, but they didn't seem to have the same sort of volume of fire that a Valkyrie's gunpod seemed capable of laying out, an important factor in using guns in a high-speed engagement with rapid changes in vector. This doesn't count the possible cost in energy involved with such weapons, even if you do have a nuclear reactor onboard... since fuel is fuel, and you've only got so much energy storage available within a given volume not devoted to ammo, transformation equipment, armor, avionics, etc. You're already using quite a bit of that energy for the armor and the maneuver systems, which means that may put a limit on how many shots were available to a pilot using an energy weapon that didn't have its own energy source. Or, if it DOES have one, then you're still going to be ammo-limited and whether the savings in mass would be significant enough are yet to be determined. |
2008-05-26, 20:06 | Link #284 | ||||||
Truth Martyr
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....god i can't believe I'm channelling ark here. -_- Quote:
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2008-05-26, 20:44 | Link #285 | ||
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Er, you know, I will repeat myself again, because I am ... nice. I said, they adapted the designs, I did not say they rip off the cannon, and also put a tri-barrel on the VF-22! All I stated was that the VF-22 took great many cues from the Queadluun Rau, including the beam weapon systems installed on both of its arms, which is an undeniable fact. *Looking at a profusely bleeding Wild Goose* Oh get over it, its just plastic! Yes, I am nice, dammit! - Tak |
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2008-05-26, 21:01 | Link #286 |
Truth Martyr
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*me laughs as the plastic fork bounces off the ceramic OCST Haxxbuster armor*
You'll have to do better than that, Tak. Your plastic fork is weak! When you said the beam guns were adapted the impression you were giving me was that Howard made 3-barrel beam gatlings for the VF-22. If they're single barrel guns the ROF goes down ya know. Anyway as we say in Cadia, link or Silver Retriever.
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2008-05-26, 23:27 | Link #287 | |
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I've punted all the mecha discussion from the Macross Universe thread here. This isn't a versus thread either, but I'm amenable to a "Macross Versus" thread of some kind, so if you're interested, please post your ideas on what its rules and conditions should be in the Thread Request thread.
On to the topic: there's no rule out there that states that energy weapons have to be more powerful than projectile ones; that's just a Gundam brainbug that's running around. Indeed, for the same energy expenditure, a kinetic energy weapon will be better at penetrating armor than an equivalent laser or particle beam. The advantage of an energy weapon is that you don't have to worry as much about recoil. In this case, the lightness of a Valkyrie coupled with the high rate of fire of a gunpod would indicate that the muzzle velocity of the rounds can't be all that high: Quote:
Given this fact, and the possibility of exotic penetrators, there really isn't any reason for the Valkyrie gunpods to have any worse penetration than their beams. And they most certainly will be more powerful than the head lasers.
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2008-05-27, 06:36 | Link #288 | |
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Real laser has the advantage of light speed. |
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2008-05-27, 06:44 | Link #289 | |
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Spoiler for OT:
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2008-05-27, 06:51 | Link #290 | |||
Truth Martyr
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And as I've been saying, kinetic weapons are more practical to deploy, use, maintain and repair by fleets out in the back of beyond. As for the head lasers... I've kinda always felt they were more of a last-ditch weapon, and the reason they used lasers was to save on space for ammo and the like. It's the valk equivalent of a 9mm pistol. Last ditch weapon for you to use while going down fighting, not something you want to be relying on as your primary weapon. Quote:
On the other hand though as we've seen in Macross lasers don't really appear useful for anything besides being a backup weapon and antimissile CIWS. Actually it's because I've seen SEED and SEED Destiny, and am writing a SEED fanfic.
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2008-05-27, 07:02 | Link #291 | |
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Plasma beam could double up as plasma thrusters i.e. recoil. **You have could have element of lead (Pb) at 4th state of matter i.e. ionisation properties plus kinetic . |
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2008-05-27, 07:24 | Link #292 | ||
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For they (VF) have enough power generation to power both engines and large beam weapons? Perhaps they need dual power generation systems i.e. one for engines and one for particle beam weapons. Compared Gundam 00, VF series doesn’t seem to have a mono-frame body design. Quote:
Laser (photon)’s performance is influenced by its frequency e.g. IR vs X-Ray vs Gamma. Higher EM frequency relates to ionising efficiency. I've only seen Gundam 00. |
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2008-05-27, 08:52 | Link #293 | |||
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Also, note that while lasers don't really degrade outside of atmospheric interference, they will still attenuate over large distances. Quote:
Ever since the VF-1, Valkyries have had thermonuclear reaction engines. In the case of the VF-1, it has two of these engines for 650MW apiece - an impressive figure under just about any criteria.
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2008-05-27, 11:17 | Link #294 | |||
Truth Martyr
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2008-05-27, 12:01 | Link #295 |
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As facinating as you are arguing about the merits of kinetic vs beam weaponry in Macross.
Let us see who is who among the weapons biz. (Source Macross The Galaxy Sourcebook 3) Chapter 6 – Companies & Manufacturers This chapter details some of the companies and manufacturers of the destroids, variable fighters and other technologies. Being mostly democratic, the New Unity government allows free enterprise and business, although they do have more control over costs for commodities that are essential to life (such as medical care). Many corporations cater specifically to the UN government. Major Corporations Listed here are some of the largest and more well known companies in the Macross saga. OTEC – This was the original group founded in 1999 to reverse-engineer the Protoculture’s gunship that landed on South Ataria Island. It was OTEC that designed thethermonuclear reactor engine, the pinpoint barrier system and the hyper-alloy materials for their armor. They also developed reaction weaponry. Stonewell-Bellcom – Developed the VF-0/VF-1, VF-4 and the Destroid MBR & HWR series. Shinnakasu – Co-develops the VF-5000 with Stonewell-Bellcom. Before merging with Stonewell-Bellcom, Shinnakasu was the leading manufacturer of thermonuclear turbine engines. General Galaxy – Founded by ex-science officer of the Zentraedi Boddole Zer fleet, Algus Selzaa, their first project given to them by UN Spacy was the design and development of the VF-9 Cutlass, and later the VF-17 Nightmare. During Project Super Nova, they offered the YF-21. General Galaxy specializes in developing stealth fighters. Shinsei Industries – This company was formed from the merging of Shinnakasu and Stonewell-Bellcom in 2012. Developed the VF-11 Thunderbolt and VF-16. During Project Super Nova, they offered the YF-19 designed by Yang Neumann. Northrom Grumman – Developed the VA-3 Invader. Co-developed the VB-6 with Shinnakasu. Specializes in heavy bomber technology. Also developed the Masamune battroid. Mikoyan – This company co-developed the VAB-2 with Northrom Grumman, and the VA-14 with General Galaxy. Specializes in stealth bomber technology. Messer – This company co-developed the VF-14 with General Galaxy. Viggers & Chrauler Corporations – Manufactures of heavy destroid and heavy weaponry technology. Designed the HWR technology. Centinental Corporations / Kransman Group – Another destroid manufacturer conglomerate. Designed the Sparta and Spartan. Co-develops the Dehawk and Monster with Viggers/Chrauler. Specializes in MBR robotics. Hughes Corporation – Primary manufacturer of GU (gun unit) weapons for variable fighters. Raytheon Industrial – This is one of the leading manufacturers of missile technology, sometimes working with Bifors and Erlikon. Bifors Corporation – Another producer of missile technology. Erlikon – Another producer of missile technology as well as high-power ballistic weapons for mecha. Mauler Industries – A company that produces energy weapon technology, including lasers and particle beam cannons. Ramington – A company that primarily makes mecha ballistic weapons, and some explosive components for missile warheads. Produced the mecha-scale hand grenade used by the VF-1 GPS unit. Astra Weaponry Incorporated – This group exclusively deals with multi-weapon modules used by various destroid units. Orguss Manufacturing Conglomerate – This group designed the VF-O-1A Orguss Valkyrie as a heavy combat mecha that combined the roles of the variable fighter and the destroid. Unfortunately the design had inherent flaws and not many units were made. SDF-1 Onboard Weapon Factory – Not truly a company, the onboard factory produced the Phalanx and Maverick, and made designs for the SPD-1 Stampede. Macross Consortium – While not truly a “company”, the Macross Consortium is the UN’s own science group, composed mostly of civilian contractors. They have been involved in the development of many different projects, including the virtual idol Sharon Apple. Macross 7 Science Group – Again, not a true company. Lead by Dr. Gadget Chiba, they devised the sound energy theory and developed the Sound Energy System, Sound Booster, and Sound Buster Cannon technologies. |
2008-05-27, 12:40 | Link #296 |
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^ very good article. We also know that General Galaxy was able to pitch and sell the VF-22 as a special ops fighter and mass produced the VF-171 as the main stay fighter of the the MF fleet.
Shinsei officially "won" the super nova project with the VF-19 to be the next main stay fighter. I figure the destriod mfgs are hurting right now as Valks seem to dominate the military purchases. Part of me would like to think the Destroids would be used more my civilian peace keeping forces, but M7 (they had those levicopters that had trans forming arms) and MF (they deploy tanks against the Vajra) show other wise. |
2008-05-27, 13:39 | Link #297 | ||
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2008-05-27, 17:26 | Link #298 | |
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- Tak |
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2008-05-27, 17:56 | Link #299 | |
Truth Martyr
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Twin gatlings ftw.
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2008-05-27, 18:37 | Link #300 | ||
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Again, this is the theory... and in Gundam, the reason they give for beam weapons being so powerful is that they're particle weapons which, for a given size, deliver far more damage to a target whose armor is optimized to handle kinetic-energy impacts... but not a particle weapon. The breakthrough in Gundam was that you could put the power of a beam-cannon carried on a battleship on a far smaller, more maneuverable platform. Other Mobile Suits and Mobile Armors carried kinetic weapons for the most part, since they didn't have the superlative technology the Earth Federation had. The other theoretical advantage is the lightspeed one - a kinetic weapon at relativistic ranges suffers from lag time, which means you have to project where a target will be when in order to hit it, unless it's a guided missile with its own onboard systems to maneuver... while a laser or particle-beam weapon will move at lightspeed or near-lightspeed, and have enough time to (theoretically) burn the target before it can get out of the way. Ignoring, of course, the problems with keeping a beam coherent at range, or that hitting a target from more than a few kilometers out moving at those speeds would take enough computer power that a kinetic weapon would probably do as well with a different approach (scattering shots in the general area the target would be). But yes, the Macross universe does have a way to compensate for inertia... since it also has gravity control as a matter of course in its ships. With this sort of technology, you could (at least in theory) compensate for inertia by use of a small gravitic generator in the ship, which would counter inertia by projecting a field inverse to the direction of travel and thus negate a lot of the acceleration/deceleration effects... or at least, that's going to be the technobabble I'm going to use to explain why the Macross Quarter could suddenly decelerate without ripping everyone's spines out of their bodies, even WITH the bracing involved. Quote:
As for Destroids, they're not exactly OFFENSIVE weapons due to their limited mobility, except in ground-based situations where you've got good methods of deploying them. That's probably why we have the VB-6 Konig Monster; because it was recognized that, while firepower was good, not having it in the right spot really made for some hard situations. Example: when the Macross had to deal with what was basically a landing action by Quamzin... and his Glaug's maneuverability combined with that of the other pods ended up wiping most of the defending Destroids out. It was only Hikaru's holding action, along with Max and Hayao which kept them from invading the Macross (IIRC) before the Monsters showed up to deliver the extra firepower required to repel the assault. Now, for air defense, the Mk. X Defenders and Phalanxes were great due to their guns and missiles... but honestly, outside of being deployed for rear defense or anti-air use, Destroids seem kinda limited in part due to the fact most all of the battles we see are SPACE battles, for which they're poorly equipped (read: they don't fly). On planetary bases, I'd expect more of them for the same reason tanks aren't used for air strikes. Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-05-27 at 18:55. |
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