[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Roger, read my Kanon=Shannon theory

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1230

Ok it's a very wacky theory but it's yet another way to justify the presence of a "19th" person.

I've said it many times, basically half of the red truths are used to deny the existence of such a person, and yet... they all use an indirect way. Why not just make a list of people that are on rokkenjima?, they never had a problem making a list of people that are dead, so what am i missing here? ^^

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for I don't think the Kanon=Shannon theory holds up.:

How long ago did one of them die? It can't have been very long; Natsuhi or Krauss would have noticed. One person trying to do the work of two would quickly give it away. Also, the survivor is an extremely talented actor, managing to keep separate voices and not break character under stress, which suggests this is well-practiced. If one died recently, how long has he/she been practicing it?

A false Kinzo is possible because Kinzo is extremely reclusive and never sees anyone. Kanon and Shannon both have very open schedules.

[Jan-Poo]

Still easier to explain than the theory that Battler doesn't exists ^^;

[Auria]

Spoiler for Stupid theories and so on:

Your Kanon and Shannon theory is quite nice, I judge on my intuition, and my main point according this was only "THEY NEVER APPEAR TOGETHER BEFORE BATTLER LULZ = SUSPICIOUS" (it feels like a second personality is hiding the advanced thoughts from me, they are there, but I can't grasp them). When Shannon and Kanon appeared first, everyone saw a relation to Mion/Shion. If you have such similar characters, it's almost impossible not to think about a switch or something like that.

Well, why not make a list of the people on Rokkenjima.. because the witches would open many ways for Battler I guess, there must be something about it

Ah, and before the patch for episode 4 comes out, some listing of my theories (mostly based on that very "reliable" intuition)

- Battler is something not existent (not so sure about that, but in a way that he is not the Battler that should be there), there is something about him which will the story around in one-go, but we don't know it yet. Rokki-Battler and Meta-Battler are like different persons (Meta-Battler can see what's happening with Rokki Battler but can't really see inside his head)
- The part about Shannon/Kanon being the same person (or either switch roles sometimes :X)
- Kinzo is also a shoo-in for being not alive anymore in any of the games lol. At least he never appears in front of Battler.
- Totally wacky: main pattern is culprit finds the gold and goes insane *slaughter* *slaughter* Episode 1 it's Natsuhi, episode 2, episode 3 Eva-oba-san-chan-dono. 4. is going to be Kyrie lol

But I'm expecting something totally different vom Ryuukishi-sama, can't wait to play the next episode ~

Spoiler for pronunciation:

Somehow I can't help to 'think' the Names Rosa, Maria and Beatrice in German even though they are supposed to be Italian (?) since they are quite common here (well Beatrice not so much but there is a german pronunciation). Problem with Beato though: Can't help to think of the english word beat + o. Even though the german pronunciation would be extremely close to japanese here. Oh my.

And Krauss is such a strange given name.. it's a very common familiy name in germany XD a romanization as Klaus/Claus would make a lot more sense, but it was declared (NOT IN RED) in the pv that it's Krauss.. well Kinzo has strange tastes in names xp

Enough rage for now ~ *listening to Akiko Shikata to remember that it's pronounced "Beat(o)riche" >_>"

[Kitsu]

Spoiler for @Auri:

I can understand how you feel. I can't really think of a different pronunciation for Beatrice. Also I can't imagine Rosa and Maria in Italian though. I've heard that they had different one but still.
Krauss also confused me because no one has such a name. Though I have no problem with Beato

Kanon & Shannon gave me a feeling of mystery the first time I saw them they kind seemed so special. Which could be because of their similar names but still... I think that that theory just can't be possible

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Auria

Spoiler for Stupid theories and so on:

Your Kanon and Shannon theory is quite nice, I judge on my intuition, and my main point according this was only "THEY NEVER APPEAR TOGETHER BEFORE BATTLER LULZ = SUSPICIOUS" (it feels like a second personality is hiding the advanced thoughts from me, they are there, but I can't grasp them). When Shannon and Kanon appeared first, everyone saw a relation to Mion/Shion. If you have such similar characters, it's almost impossible not to think about a switch or something like that.

Well, why not make a list of the people on Rokkenjima.. because the witches would open many ways for Battler I guess, there must be something about it

Ah, and before the patch for episode 4 comes out, some listing of my theories (mostly based on that very "reliable" intuition)

- Battler is something not existent (not so sure about that, but in a way that he is not the Battler that should be there), there is something about him which will the story around in one-go, but we don't know it yet. Rokki-Battler and Meta-Battler are like different persons (Meta-Battler can see what's happening with Rokki Battler but can't really see inside his head)
- The part about Shannon/Kanon being the same person (or either switch roles sometimes :X)
- Kinzo is also a shoo-in for being not alive anymore in any of the games lol. At least he never appears in front of Battler.
- Totally wacky: main pattern is culprit finds the gold and goes insane *slaughter* *slaughter* Episode 1 it's Natsuhi, episode 2, episode 3 Eva-oba-san-chan-dono. 4. is going to be Kyrie lol

But I'm expecting something totally different vom Ryuukishi-sama, can't wait to play the next episode ~

Spoiler for pronunciation:

Somehow I can't help to 'think' the Names Rosa, Maria and Beatrice in German even though they are supposed to be Italian (?) since they are quite common here (well Beatrice not so much but there is a german pronunciation). Problem with Beato though: Can't help to think of the english word beat + o. Even though the german pronunciation would be extremely close to japanese here. Oh my.

And Krauss is such a strange given name.. it's a very common familiy name in germany XD a romanization as Klaus/Claus would make a lot more sense, but it was declared (NOT IN RED) in the pv that it's Krauss.. well Kinzo has strange tastes in names xp

Enough rage for now ~ *listening to Akiko Shikata to remember that it's pronounced "Beat(o)riche" >_>"

The comparison between Mion/Shion and Kanon/Shannon is actually inresting, Ryukishi must have a fetish or something for names than end with "音". In Higurashi the two "-音" girls switched roles many times. Now in Umineko we have two other characters with the same ending Kanji, is that a hint?

As for name pronunciations, Beatrice definitely is pronounced as the italians do, because it is an obvious homage to the Divine Comedy. Now that i think of it, how much do you actually now about Beatrice?

Beatrice is a person that actually existed, although her real name was probably different. Beatrice means both "She who blesses" and "Bringer of joy" (quite the opposite of the Beatrice we know ^^; ). Beatrice was the true love of Dante Alighieri, however both of them were married with different persons. So in a way you could say that Dante and Kinzo are similar. Dante's relationship with Beatrice was what you can call a platonic love, he actually didn't want it to be different than that. However Beatrice died at a very young age (yet another similarity). Dante then, while exiled, wrote the Divine Comedy and he placed himself as the main character. He starts his travel from the nine hells where he encounters Virgil (Virgilius), Virgil then guides him through hell and purgatory but he cannot go further than that because he's not allowed to reach the heavens. There at the peak of the purgatory Dante encounters Beatrice whose place of course is in heaven since she is the very personification of all that is pure and virtuous (lol!), then Beatrice becomes his new guide.

Beatrice is pronounced as

Be as in bet
a as in art
tri as in matrix
che as in chest

Beatrice's diminutive "Beato" is obviously something only a japanese could think of, in reality Beatrice is commonly abbreviated as "Bice" or "Bea".

[Marion]

Honestly I find three things a little odd in this episode - Krauss's apology, Pills and Hideyoshi's death.

Spoiler for Krauss's 'apology':

Before Krauss and Natsuhi died in the anti-mystery scenario, he was talking to the latter about how he was terrible to his siblings, because he was trying to emulate Kinzo as a child, especially his sexist comments towards Eva. I wonder how this epiphany happened so easily. Think about it - in episode one he was a complete jerk to his siblings during the meeting in the parlor and during this episode he had no problem making backhanded comments, especially towards Rosa and Eva. Then suddenly he gets this clarity moment, in which he realizes what a jerk he's been. Honestly I don't buy it.

I think what we saw, before Eva-Beatrice came in with the Siestas and killed him and Natsuhi, was what Eva wished to hear from Krauss. That when he was talking to Natsuhi about how bad he had been it was Eva's personal daydream that he was apologizing to her for being a jerk. Even Natsuhi seems odd, in the way that she says how everything that happened was because of their family situation being an Ushiromiya. From past episodes, Natsuhi didn't seem to have much vocal problems with the way Krauss ran things - she even agreed in Episode 2 that Krauss's siblings were greedy jerks who sneered at him and believed in the way he ran things. From her to go from 'greedy siblings' to 'they could be nice' is a bit weird.

Then again the mass murders could have contributed.

Spoiler for Pills and Possible Theory on how Nanjo died:

I'm sure someone said this before me but whatever. Before the 2nd Twilight happened, Rosa wanted to give sleeping pills or something like that to Maria to stop her fit. Natsuhi said she had some. What if it went like this (Note: I will assume Eva is the Culprit while Nanjo is an accomplice):

Eva went out to make coffee and came back. She drugged Krauss and Natsuhi's cups with pills, planning to take them to the arbor and then choke them to death there. But something went wrong and Natsuhi or Krauss didn't fall asleep (I think Natsuhi a bit more, if only because her headache problems could have built up an immunity to her own pills - thus requiring more for her to be subdued). So Eva overtook Natsuhi and choked her, while Nanjo came in to help choke Krauss. She then got Nanjo to help her move Krauss and Natsuhi to the arbor, where she staked them (Krauss in the knee and Natsuhi in the ankle) and then choked them.

But she didn't do it well enough and Krauss or Natsuhi woke up. Nanjo gave an incorrect diagnosis, believing them to be dead since he helped so he didn't second check, and everyone left to the mansion. But, Krauss or Natsuhi did survive and went to the mansion. They somehow found out where Eva hid the other guns and then heard a gunshot (which was Eva shooting Jessica). They heard her scream and went to find her. They eventually made it to Nanjo and thought he attacked her. So one of them killed him. They then used their master key (which they got from the servants) to lock the door from the outside, so Eva wouldn't be able to get inside, and went after her. But on the way they probably died from a loss of blood. Eva and Battler didn't find them because they died out of sight.

Spoiler for Still living:

For Hideyoshi's TIPS after dying, I think we might be misinterpreting it. If we assume TIPS are being written from Eva's perspective then what she means this:

"How careless. He was still living...."

She says careless. What if this means that Hideyoshi's death was an accident. My bet is that Eva, finding the gold and all, definitely wanted to spare her husband and son. But what if it happened like this: Hideyoshi was shot somehow (probably by Rudolph or Kyrie), but not lethally. Eva found his body and realized that in order to make them think it was the witch she would have to stake it. But when she did she realized that Hideyoshi was still alive, after she drove the stake into him.

The 'He was still living' part refers to the fact that, despite being shot, Hideyoshi was still alive, but she assumed he died and staked him!

Also, going back to something in Episode 2:

Spoiler for Missing?:

"Krauss: Shouldn't we celebrate that all of the siblings have gathered here, by ourselves, and without even one of us missing?"

Why would he say missing? Does this imply that in past meetings one or more of the four sibling parents were missing?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Krauss's 'apology':

Before Krauss and Natsuhi died in the anti-mystery scenario, he was talking to the latter about how he was terrible to his siblings, because he was trying to emulate Kinzo as a child, especially his sexist comments towards Eva. I wonder how this epiphany happened so easily. Think about it - in episode one he was a complete jerk to his siblings during the meeting in the parlor and during this episode he had no problem making backhanded comments, especially towards Rosa and Eva. Then suddenly he gets this clarity moment, in which he realizes what a jerk he's been. Honestly I don't buy it.

I think what we saw, before Eva-Beatrice came in with the Siestas and killed him and Natsuhi, was what Eva wished to hear from Krauss. That when he was talking to Natsuhi about how bad he had been it was Eva's personal daydream that he was apologizing to her for being a jerk. Even Natsuhi seems odd, in the way that she says how everything that happened was because of their family situation being an Ushiromiya. From past episodes, Natsuhi didn't seem to have much vocal problems with the way Krauss ran things - she even agreed in Episode 2 that Krauss's siblings were greedy jerks who sneered at him and believed in the way he ran things. From her to go from 'greedy siblings' to 'they could be nice' is a bit weird.

Then again the mass murders could have contributed.

Spoiler for Episode1:

It is pretty much what i thought after the natsuhi and Kinzo scene in the first episode. Kinzo's telling to Natsuhi all those kind words, it just didn't fit at all with everything else that was said about that man. Obviously there are many scenes that are totally fabricated, the one you mention is one of them.

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Still living:

For Hideyoshi's TIPS after dying, I think we might be misinterpreting it. If we assume TIPS are being written from Eva's perspective then what she means this:

"How careless. He was still living...."

She says careless. What if this means that Hideyoshi's death was an accident. My bet is that Eva, finding the gold and all, definitely wanted to spare her husband and son. But what if it happened like this: Hideyoshi was shot somehow (probably by Rudolph or Kyrie), but not lethally. Eva found his body and realized that in order to make them think it was the witch she would have to stake it. But when she did she realized that Hideyoshi was still alive, after she drove the stake into him.

The 'He was still living' part refers to the fact that, despite being shot, Hideyoshi was still alive, but she assumed he died and staked him!

Spoiler for Episode3:

Interesting... i didn't pay attention to this before... i guess this actually gives credit to the theory that Hideyoshi survived, in fact among the other possible "fake dead" he is the one that is more likely to fit the role. Eva's mourning is what is most suspicious here. She actually asked to have a little time alone with him. Considering all this, the chances that Hideyoshi was still alive and was ordered to kill Nanjo are pretty high. Wow now... i'm seriously going to accept the theory that Eva is responsible for most of the episode3 killings...

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Missing?:

"Krauss: Shouldn't we celebrate that all of the siblings have gathered here, by ourselves, and without even one of us missing?"

Why would he say missing? Does this imply that in past meetings one or more of the four sibling parents were missing?

Spoiler for Episode3:

If he really meant only the four brothers, this is indeed strange, who was supposed to be missing?
If he meant the brothers, spouses and children, then that never happened for the last six years, including 1986.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for Episode3:

If he really meant only the four brothers, this is indeed strange, who was supposed to be missing?
If he meant the brothers, spouses and children, then that never happened for the last six years, including 1986.

Not exactly...

Spoiler for Overall:

Ange was missing in 1986 from the meeting and Battler came back since coming to his last meeting in 1980. As far as the other parents, does it say so for sure? There could easily be another time in which a parent got sick or something, like Ange did. Since we're told everything from Battler's perspective mostly we don't know that for sure though, since he didn't even meet with most of his family, excluding some occasional meetings with his part of the family (I think he did meet with them at least sometimes, since it says in TIPs that Ange doesn't meet with him much, but still respects him).

[Jan-Poo]

No i said it right, for the reason you mentioned all siblings+spouses+children together never happened in the last six years. <- this is not a spoiler.

[Haruyan]

Spoiler for Thoughts...:

I have my doubts about the Kanon/Shanon being the same person theory, that would make all the scenes with the servants.....fake, to call it some way. Would that make the scenes with Kanon/Jessica and Shanon/George fake too?

How many scenes can we actually believe then? And I wouldn't call Battler and Beatrice reliable narrators either...

Beatrice is pronounced as

Be as in bet
a as in art
tri as in matrix
che as in chest

I remember an interview were Ryuukishi said that the correct Japanese pronunciation of Beatrice is Beatorisu, but he wrote it as Beatoriche to make it sound stronger or something.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler:

"Would that make the scenes with Kanon/Jessica and Shanon/George fake too?"

Spoiler for kanon and shannon:

No. why spoiling the funnier part?

Spoiler:

I remember an interview were Ryuukishi said that the correct Japanese pronunciation of Beatrice is Beatorisu, but he wrote it as Beatoriche to make it sound stronger or something."

I doubt that. the Katakana are: ﾍﾞｱﾄﾘﾁｪ BE A TO RI CHE and this is also the way it is pronounced in the drama CD

[Haruyan]

I doubt that. the Katakana are: ﾍﾞｱﾄﾘﾁｪ BE A TO RI CHE and this is also the way it is pronounced in the drama CD

That's what he said in an interview, that he wrote it that way because he liked it better (I can't remember the real reason, lemme find the interview)

[Jan-Poo]

The fact that Umineko's Beatrice is named after the same character in the divine comedy it is supported in episode3 when

Spoiler for episode3:

Virgilia says she is the one that will guide Battler to the peak of the Purgatory toward Beatrice

Now is Ryukishi really implying that is a mere chance that he used those katakana exactly as they are used for the divine comedy?

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A5%9E%E6%9B%B2 <- look at 2.1

sorry but i don't buy it

[Auria]

If it's Beatorisu the german pronunciation would be alright, but I doubt it. Hope you'll be able to find the interview, haruyan, I'm interessted in what he has said beside that

Spoiler for Jan-Poo! Beatrice:

Thanks for the lesson, I hope I will get it until the patch comes out. When I first looked up the pronunciation shortly after I played episode 2, I stumpled over "Purgatory" in the german wikipedia article (Fegefeuer lulz) and realised that it's part of the divine comedy as well. I wonder if he really got inspired by that o_O

"Beatrice appears in literature as symbol for an unreachable love." Battler x Beato please, go away Kinzo ~~~~~~~~~~

I'm gonna buy the divine comedy monday lol

[Jan-Poo]

It's been written 700 years ago, it's public domain now, i think you can find it in various libraries and online sites. It's not really an easy book to read @_@;

[ClockWorkAngel]

And I believe it's all in verse, so have fun with the poetry!

[Proto]

Hmm... well in Latin America it is normally a mandatory book for the Literature classes at the Junior High level/High school level, so it's not like it is too difficult or anything. It's full of cool symbolism though. The Hell part is a blast to read, however the purgatory and heaven sections are a little on the heavy side.

In any case, you might want to make sure you get the version with Gustave Dore's illustrations

[Northernme]

Spoiler for Beatrice, Kuwadorian, Furniture, Numbers and a bit of the epitaph:

While in episode 3 it seems we're getting closer to the root of the murder mystery, there are also some interesting elements regarding Beatrice herself here and there.

Things that caught my attention:

- The very first scene in the game, where a young girl (preumably beatrice, but interestingly there's no way of knowing who it really is) meets Virgilia, or as she was known back then, Beatrice. There were a number of unexplained things here; who was the "grandfather" they refer to? And who excactly was Virgilia?

Well, later on Kumasawa transforms into Virgilia, and they certainly look similar; could it have been a young Kumasawa? If so, I'd be inclined to think that the "Grandfather" refers to Kinzo. It's not unthinkable that when Homunculus-Beatrice was growing up in the sixties, she would've referred to Kinzo as grandfather.

Also, did anyone else notice that the background image is the same in this scene and the ones taking place in Kuwadorian? Veeery suspicious.

- Also, at the first twilight, Ronove says something very interesting along the lines of "That's why furniture are so frightening. Sometimes they even become witches and treat demons as butlers."

.. I wonder who he could be referring to?

- And lastly, early in the game, when discussing the possibility of an 18th person, Beatrice says "you will add a 20th, 21st, 22nd, 34th, 64358223579673204th person!" (or something like that, the last two numbers at least should be correct).

Now, number 34 obviously wasn't random, and I really don't think 64358223579673204 is either. Though I haven't been able to make any sense of it. I tried converting it to coordinates to support the Earth theory for the epitaph, but, well, it isn't coordinates, at least not normal ones. I tried a few other things too, but couldn't make sense of it. Any wild ideas, anyone?

Pardon if some of my ideas have been presented before; I confess I did not read the entire thread.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for episode3:

- And lastly, early in the game, when discussing the possibility of an 18th person, Beatrice says "you will add a 20th, 21st, 22nd, 34th, 64358223579673204th person!" (or something like that, the last two numbers at least should be correct).

Spoiler for episode3:

Where exactly this happen? °° this could be the astronomical number written on the front of the chapel. if you wrote it correctly it's on the quadrillion tier. remember George says "m b t q" on episode two when he tries to read the number those stand for million billion trillion quadrillion. You might have found something very interesting now