[Manga] Team Sasuke

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Read the post you quoted, because you didn't, you are comparing what happened to Sasuke, 3 years ago and compared it to current Sasuke, I gave you the flaw he has that doesn't make him a good leader, the decision he made with Haku didn't had the emotional attachment it is has when you talk about His revenge against Itachi. as basically Emotions are the sole reason why people say Naruto lacks leadership skills

A leader has to make rational decisions always for the sake of the goal and the team, Sasuke is not going to act like that when its faced with Itachi.

Wait ! Now it is not good when u wanna save someones life ? Till now u talked that leader must have that, care for others ..

And Sasuke will fight Itachi alone without anyones help ..

@Asianknight82

Man did u heared of king Leonidas who wilingly sacrfised his 300 soldiers ?

Ppl chant him and he is what .. bad leaeder, who went to sacrfice his ppl ?

[paptimus]

Originally Posted by shankss

yo ho! naruto fanboys vs saske fanboys encounters again in another ridicolus topic! what hte leadership?! sasuke may not be a good leader, its not in uchiha blood maybe..or its just his referrnigs to itachi whos acting under a leader ? probably he'll let all these guys die when its time, which i woulnt mind because suigetsu is one weirdo with all these monster teeths (?!) just how far do you think you can go with all these "youre my husy pushy firend! we love eacht other! lets ninja love! our firendship bound will destroy any enemy we encounter!"
I somehow have a feeling like this thing will slowly make his way to "Naruto is a leader-Sasuke is not.So as naruto fanboys we owned you.." >_>

hmm,not in his blood huh ,next thing u know is kishimoto telling us how the sharingan could make sasuke the best leader ever,the sharingan could enhance sasukes leadership abilities if he wills it,yup something like that is possible ,after all the source of sasuke's abilities is the great ryu no jubi(10 tails dragon-kishimoto).


(it may happen)

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

@Asianknight82

Man did u heared of king Leonidas who wilingly sacrfised his 300 soldiers ?

Ppl chant him and he is what .. bad leaeder, who went to sacrfice his ppl ?

Umm...King Leonidas sacrificed HIMSELF along with his 300 soldiers for the sake of his country. And the fact that those 300 lasted as long as they did speaks volumes for his tactical leadership ability.

[Asianknight82]

Genghis Khan isn't his name, its a title the mongols bestowed upon their emperors, basically like the term Caesar, and no matter what you say, world conquest is a selfish desire that eventually led to their downfall just like the nazi's.

Sasuke is gathering people who he has no emotional attachment to, because the challenge of a possible fight with akatsuki to get to Itachi would prove too dangerous for him to do it alone. Its about being smart about saving your own skin, not i r uber leet leader who likes to be with people, I bet anything that when faced against Itachi again, he won't have any of his so called team take a whack at him, he would want to be the one to do all the damage.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

Umm...King Leonidas sacrificed HIMSELF along with his 300 soldiers for the sake of his country. And the fact that those 300 lasted as long as they did speaks volumes for his tactical leadership ability.

Ummm .. Uchiha Sasuke will fight against Itachi and Akatsuki till he dont kill him and will die there if he must for the sake of whole world !

So he is great leader ?

How much ppl can sacrfice Sasuke for that noble cose ?

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

Ummm .. Uchiha Sasuke will fight against Itachi and Akatsuki till he dont kill him and will die there if he must for the sake of whole world !

So he is great leader ?

Haha, you're really reaching. Sasuke is fighting for no one but himself, and the only way he'll fight Akatsuki is if they get between him and Itachi. It's not even close to similar. And none of that has anything to do with the tactical prowess to keep troops alive far longer than they should be like Leonidas did.

I'm not going to say that Sasuke is definitely a bad leader because we have yet to see him lead, but you can't deny that he has some tendencies that are characteristic of poor leaders (mainly the seflishness).

[Asianknight82]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

Ummm .. Uchiha Sasuke will fight against Itachi and Akatsuki till he dont kill him and will die there if he must for the sake of whole world !

So he is great leader ?

How much ppl can sacrfice Sasuke for that noble cose ?

What? me no understand

Originally Posted by paptimus

hmm,not in his blood huh ,next thing u know is kishimoto telling us how the sharingan could make sasuke the best leader ever,the sharingan could enhance sasukes leadership abilities if he wills it,yup something like that is possible ,after all the source of sasuke's abilities is the great ryu no jubi(10 tails dragon-kishimoto).


(it may happen)

lol, yes! the sharingan makes him the most amazing leader ever!!! how could i have missed that?

[cuttups]

I bet they are going to Hunt down Uchiha Madara. Maybe Naruto will remember the Kyubi mentioning him and go and hunt him down too.

60 issues later......Naruto vs. Sasuke II

why not?

There can be some bad ass fights from members of Sasuke's team and Nauto's team.

BTW, more important that who is on Sasuke's team, who is Naruto going to adventure off with to have different 1 on 1 battles against Sasuke's new gang.

Shikamaru is an obvious choice, they already built him up to have some important fight later. Maybe against the female in Sasuke's gang?

Maybe Gaara with out the badger after training to get back to where he was or better?

I am trying to think of who would be good to go against this water guy.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

Haha, you're really reaching. Sasuke is fighting for no one but himself, and the only way he'll fight Akatsuki is if they get between him and Itachi. It's not even close to similar. And none of that has anything to do with the tactical prowess to keep troops alive far longer than they should be like Leonidas did.

I'm not going to say that Sasuke is definitely a bad leader because we have yet to see him lead, but you can't deny that he has some tendencies that are characteristic of poor leaders (mainly the seflishness).

Heh .. its just as i tought .. Becouse it is Sasuke and his team, which goeas to kill Itachi, they fight only for themself, for power, money, glory etc, and not for killing Itachi and most notorious grp in whole world that wanna bring war to anyone.

But in Naruto case .. he too go to kill Itachi, and he too put in danger his team, Konoha even whole world !!!Taking Kyuubi from him mean destroying world .. just for his selfish reason, he want to bring Sasuke back to Konoha, and Sasuke dont wanna go back to Konoha, and yet he is not selfish he is not hated ..

And i mean wtf is going on ..
How is that possible ?

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by cuttups

I bet they are going to Hunt down Uchiha Madara. Maybe Naruto will remember the Kyubi mentioning him and go and hunt him down too.

60 issues later......Naruto vs. Sasuke II

why not?

There can be some bad ass fights from members of Sasuke's team and Nauto's team.

BTW, more important that who is on Sasuke's team, who is Naruto going to adventure off with to have different 1 on 1 battles against Sasuke's new gang.

Shikamaru is an obvious choice, they already built him up to have some important fight later. Maybe against the female in Sasuke's gang?

Maybe Gaara with out the badger after training to get back to where he was or better?

I am trying to think of who would be good to go against this water guy.

I don't see how it would get around to Sasuke v. Naruto again, to be quite honest. How would Naruto and Co. know where to start hunting for Uchiha Madara? How would Sasuke's squad know either, for that matter? What I think is going to happen is Itachi and Kisame go to get Naruto, but Sasuke and his crew step in. Naruto is like: "Sasuke u c4m3 2 h31p m3h 0mgz0rz", then Sasuke is like : "Get the f out of my way, you n00b." Then you have something like:

Sasuke v. Itachi (of course)
Waterboy v. Kisame (7 Swordsman vs. old 7 Swordsman trainee)
X v. Naruto where X is one of the remaining members of Sasuke's squad (because Sasuke will have him attack Naruto to keep Naruto from helping)
Y v. Yamato where Y is the last Team Sasuke member (b/c Naruto was KB training when he got attacked)

Ok actually that theory got a little out of control; that probably won't happen lol But I still don't see what could happen to force another Naruto v. Sasuke.

Originally Posted by SpiRo

Heh .. its just as i tought .. Becouse it is Sasuke and his team, which goeas to kill Itachi, they fight only for themself, for power, money, glory etc, and not for killing Itachi and most notorious grp in whole world that wanna bring war to anyone.

But in Naruto case .. he too go to kill Itachi, and he too put in danger his team, Konoha even whole world !!!Taking Kyuubi from him mean destroying world .. just for his selfish reason, he want that someonr who dont want be his friend, and yet he is not selfish he is not hated he is not bad leader ..

And i mean wtf is going on ..
How is that possible ?

When did I mention Naruto? I actually think he'd be a poor leader because generally he's kind of dense. I mainly just had a problem with you comparing Sasuke to Leonidas because it's not the same. At all. And you know damn well Sasuke isn't trying to kill Itachi to save the world. Sasuke is selfish; that's part of his character. That also happens to be something that makes for a poor leader.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

When did I mention Naruto? I actually think he'd be a poor leader because generally he's kind of dense. I mainly just had a problem with you comparing Sasuke to Leonidas because it's not the same. At all. And you know damn well Sasuke isn't trying to kill Itachi to save the world. Sasuke is selfish; that's part of his character. That also happens to be something that makes for a poor leader.

unbelievable .. ofc i know that Sasuke only wanna kill Itachi !

WHY THE FUCK IS HE SELFISH ? At start all from his team will know what he wanna do and if all agree then i dont see problem if they die they wont expect any help from him nor he will expect any help when he fight Itachi !

And i didnt say that u r Naruto fan .. i pointed that Naruto is worse then Sasuke ( how u call it selfish) and yet no1 talk about it .. why is that ? he have more idiotic reason to go for Sasuke and Itachi.. His whim is to be body with Sasuke .. lets jeopardize whole world for that!!

I mentioned Leonidas becouse he wilingly sacrfised his ppl and he could go without anyone dead .. And he is good leader .. as Subaku said :

That is just one example of a type of leadership. There are many types of leaders with many different methods of leadership. How effective a leader is in accomplishing goal, maintaining control and utilizing their followers is what determines their merit as a leader. There is no one perfect definition of a good leader.


So what is problem with Naruto fans to start he is horrible leader and bullshit .. when he even dont have a team yet ..

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

unbelievable .. ofc i know that Sasuke only wanna kill Itachi !

WHY THE FUCK IS HE SELFISH ? At start all from his team will know what he wanna do and if all agree then i dont see problem if they die they wont expect any help from him nor he will expect any help when he fight Itachi !

lol. He's selfish because he puts his own personal goal above everything else. By definition, that's selfish. I don't know why you have such a problem with that; it's part of his character.

And i didnt say that u r Naruto fan .. i pointed that Naruto is worse then Sasuke ( how u call it selfish) and yet no1 talk about it .. why is that ? he have more idiotic reason to go for Sasuke and Itachi.. His whim is to be body with Sasuke .. lets jeopardize whole world for that!!

What you say about Naruto is fair. I suspect no one talks about it because it doesn't look like he'll be leading a team any time soon. Did you happen to notice he never goes anywhere without a Shikamaru or greater caliber ninja leading the team?

I mentioned Leonidas becouse he wilingly sacrfised his ppl and he could go without anyone dead .. And he is good leader .. as Subaku said :

That is just one example of a type of leadership. There are many types of leaders with many different methods of leadership. How effective a leader is in accomplishing goal, maintaining control and utilizing their followers is what determines their merit as a leader. There is no one perfect definition of a good leader.

That quote from Sabaku Kyu is fine on it's own. I just don't see how mentioning Leonidas is merited in this thread, considering he was so different from Sasuke.

So what is problem with Naruto fans to start he is horrible leader and bullshit .. when he even dont have a team yet ..

He'll have a team within 1 chapter. And all I said was that one of his main characteristics is not generally a characteristic of a good leader. The doubts are legitimate considering his nature. Perhaps you should just map out why you doubt he'll be a bad leader instead of just calling bullshit on others' doubts about his being a good leader and asserting that they just hate him.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

lol. He's selfish because he puts his own personal goal above everything else. By definition, that's selfish. I don't know why you have such a problem with that; it's part of his character.

Hmm that is not selfish m8 .. he dont jeperdize anyone else far as i know ..

What you say about Naruto is fair. I suspect no one talks about it because it doesn't look like he'll be leading a team any time soon. Did you happen to notice he never goes anywhere without a Shikamaru or greater caliber ninja leading the team?

ofc i know that but that was not my point i know he is retarded for TL .. u should look again what i wrote .. that what he do is selfish .. he jeperdize whole world for his unreasonable goal and his whim

That quote from Sabaku Kyu is fine on it's own. I just don't see how mentioning Leonidas is merited in this thread, considering he was so different from Sasuke.

i mentioned that becouse there is many different leaderships .. and that if Sasuke team die it is not same as Gai team to die and Gai sacrfice them for his whim.. they r not real team like job team Konoha style, they just gethered for their reason .. Sasuke didnt promise anything.

He'll have a team within 1 chapter. And all I said was that one of his main characteristics is not generally a characteristic of a good leader. The doubts are legitimate considering his nature. Perhaps you should just map out why you doubt he'll be a bad leader instead of just calling bullshit on others' doubts about his being a good leader and asserting that they just hate him.

And again i dont wanna come from where we started .. we didnt see his leadership abilities so we cant talk about it .. He dont have same relationship with his team as Kakashi, Gai, Asuma .. They know why r they with him and if they die that is not his fault. He wont play il be yours leader lets hang together and practice and then we will do missions .. it will be lets finish the job ..

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

Hmm that is not selfish m8 .. he dont jeperdize anyone else far as i know ..

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

self·ish /ˈsɛlfɪʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sel-fish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

Again, he's selfish. By definition. Again, it's a part of his character. Why is it such a big deal that people say so?

ofc i know that but that was not my point i know he is retarded for TL .. u should look again what i wrote .. that what he do is selfish .. he jeperdize whole world for his unreasonable goal and his whim

I guess I'm not seeing what you're trying to convince me of. I already said your statement was fair. My point with my comment on it was basically that although he has a selfish whim, no one allows him to be in a position where he actually jeopardizes the world with it, and that's why no one brings it up. You did ask why no one brings it up, didn't you?

i mentioned that becouse there is many different leaderships .. and that if Sasuke team die it is not same as Gai team to die and Gai sacrfice them for his whim.. they r not real team like job team Konoha style, they just gethered for their reason .. Sasuke didnt promise anything.

That's fair enough.

And again i dont wanna come from where we started .. we didnt see his leadership abilities so we cant talk about it .. He dont have same relationship with his team as Kakashi, Gai, Asuma .. They know why r they with him and if they die that is not his fault. He wont play il be yours leader lets hang together and practice and then we will do missions .. it will be lets finish the job ..

I know we haven't seen his actual leadership abilities and thus can't talk about it. We can, however, make inferences about his leadership potential based on his behavior. That's why I have doubt in his ability to be a good leader. And I understand what you're saying about the type of team they are, but that doesn't by default absolve him from potentially being a bad leader.

Consider, for example, this scenario: Sasuke and his squad run into Itachi and a couple other Akatsuki members. If he plays matchups correctly and assigns each member of his team to fight the guy against whom they have an advantage, then he'll easily have his fight with Itachi uninterrupted. If he plays them incorrectly, then his team gets killed and he has to retreat because he is out-gunned. Now consider the fact that the last time he saw Itachi, he was so incensed and absorbed with his goal that he attacked without thinking even though he had no chance whatsoever. I personally doubt that in such a scenario, he would be a good enough leader to make sure the job gets done. That's just my opinion, and the whole scenario was just an example. We'll have to wait and see, but until we see how he does as a leader, I'm simply going to have my doubts about him. And it has nothing to do with hating him or some silly double standard regarding Naruto.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

Well .. First u must take in consideration why he wanna kill Itachi ..

-Actually he dont think so much for himself if that will help him kill Itachi (CS, body to Oro, as he said so many times)

-he rly dont have any benefits ..

Regardless of others: well he didnt kill Naruto or any nin he fought at training so he care about other lives, even Kabuto.. Except Oro who wanted to kill him ofc.

And last he dont have selfish motives ..

Thats why he is not selfish for me ..

Consider, for example, this scenario: Sasuke and his squad run into Itachi and a couple other Akatsuki members. If he plays matchups correctly and assigns each member of his team to fight the guy against whom they have an advantage, then he'll easily have his fight with Itachi uninterrupted. If he plays them incorrectly, then his team gets killed and he has to retreat because he is out-gunned. Now consider the fact that the last time he saw Itachi, he was so incensed and absorbed with his goal that he attacked without thinking even though he had no chance whatsoever. I personally doubt that in such a scenario, he would be a good enough leader to make sure the job gets done. That's just my opinion, and the whole scenario was just an example. We'll have to wait and see, but until we see how he does as a leader, I'm simply going to have my doubts about him. And it has nothing to do with hating him or some silly double standard regarding Naruto.

He already picked Suigetsu (water nin, swordman) he will probably fight Kisame(swordman) .. so i would say he already have good decision .. That time he was 12 years old ^^ and he first time saw his brother since that day .. now it will be different he will be calm becouse he is prepared.

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

Well .. First u must take in consideration why he wanna kill Itachi ..

-Actually he dont think so much for himself if that will help him kill Itachi (CS, body to Oro, as he said so many times)

-he rly dont have any benefits ..

Regardless of others: well he didnt kill Naruto or any nin he fought at training so he care about other lives, even Kabuto.. Except Oro who wanted to kill him ofc.

And last he dont have selfish motives ..

Thats why he is not selfish for me ..

On your first point, I'll mostly concede. But what that means is that he still thinks for himself, just not at the cost of his motive, which I'd argue is still selfish.

The second point, I'd say he does have benefits. They may not be stereotypical happy things, but they are benefits nonetheless. The benefit of his going to Oro was to get stronger. The benefit of getting stronger is to kill Itachi. The benefit of killing Itachi is the personal sense of satisfaction that comes with it.

The third point, just because he didn't kill them doesn't mean he necessarily cares about them. I'll concede that he probably cares about Naruto, but I doubt he gives a damn about Kabuto or those ninjas from training. And if any of them besides Naruto got in the way of his fighting Itachi, then he'd kill them without hesitation. An analogy: Sometimes I see a spider crawling up the wall, and I don't kill it because it's not getting in my way; it's not worth the effort. But that doesn't mean I care about the spider.

On the last point, selfish motives relates to the definition of selfish itself, so you know my stance on that one.

But really I'd rather not split hairs on the various parts of the definition of selfish. Your interpretation is plenty reasonable; I just disagree with it. We'll have to agree to disagree there.

He already picked Suigetsu (water nin) he will probably fight Kisame .. so i would say he already have good decision .. That time he was 12 years old ^^ and he first time saw his brother from that day .. now it will be different .

I absolutely agree that Suigetsu was a good decision, but only time will tell how Sasuke will react when facing Itachi. Maybe he's calmer now, maybe not. Maybe he'll be a good leader, maybe not. But people are allowed to have doubts without being accused of double standards or hating.

[Hentai Guy]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

Heh .. its just as i tought .. Becouse it is Sasuke and his team, which goeas to kill Itachi, they fight only for themself, for power, money, glory etc, and not for killing Itachi and most notorious grp in whole world that wanna bring war to anyone.

Itachi hasn't shown himself to be any more dangerous than any other major villain...he may be the most powerful (which is arguable since we haven't seen everything Akatsuki has to offer), but he's certainly no more of a "threat to the world" than say...Zetsu or Kisame, both of whom Sasuke would completely ignore so long as they stayed out of the way. He doesn't want to kill Itachi because he's a threat to the world...this much is obvious because Oro is just as much of an active threat, yet Sasuke actually sided with him (albeit only to gain power, not because of any ideals they might share). He's never made any statement that he's doing it for "good"...ALL of his statements have been to the effect of vengeance. While killing Itachi may benefit the world, it's not Sasuke's intent at all...he was hurt, and he wants to hurt Itachi back. So yes, because it is Sasuke...one of the most netoriously selfish characters in the series (beaten out possibly by Oro, most--if not all--of Akatsuki, and Gaara before going all nicey nice), at the least we've certainly got more direct examples of his selfishness.

Personally, to throw my weight specifically at the topic, I think Sasuke will make an OK leader to a point...I don't think he'll be extraordinary, but he shouldn't have any trouble with it. No trouble, until something involving either Naruto or Itachi pops up...when things start getting personal for Sasuke, his leadership will fall apart.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

I'd say he does have benefits. They may not be stereotypical happy things, but they are benefits nonetheless. The benefit of his going to Oro was to get stronger. The benefit of getting stronger is to kill Itachi. The benefit of killing Itachi is the personal sense of satisfaction that comes with it.

Selfish motives relates to the definition of selfish itself, so you know my stance on that one.

But really I'd rather not split hairs on the various parts of the definition of selfish. Your interpretation is plenty reasonable; I just disagree with it. We'll have to agree to disagree there.

This is last we dont agree so lets talk about it ^^

1. When u put that way, then every one is selfish becouse they have benefits of what they do ?

2. U cant leave whole life to help others that is rly absurd, every one have something that wanna do or finish alone. Doeas that mean every man on planet is selfish ?

Both of this have to side on past and motive .. and his past and motive is on his side..

Originally Posted by Hentai Guy

Itachi hasn't shown himself to be any more dangerous than any other major villain...he may be the most powerful (which is arguable since we haven't seen everything Akatsuki has to offer), but he's certainly no more of a "threat to the world" than say...Zetsu or Kisame, both of whom Sasuke would completely ignore so long as they stayed out of the way. He doesn't want to kill Itachi because he's a threat to the world...this much is obvious because Oro is just as much of an active threat, yet Sasuke actually sided with him (albeit only to gain power, not because of any ideals they might share). He's never made any statement that he's doing it for "good"...ALL of his statements have been to the effect of vengeance. While killing Itachi may benefit the world, it's not Sasuke's intent at all...he was hurt, and he wants to hurt Itachi back. So yes, because it is Sasuke...one of the most netoriously selfish characters in the series (beaten out possibly by Oro, most--if not all--of Akatsuki, and Gaara before going all nicey nice), at the least we've certainly got more direct examples of his selfishness.

Personally, to throw my weight specifically at the topic, I think Sasuke will make an OK leader to a point...I don't think he'll be extraordinary, but he shouldn't have any trouble with it. No trouble, until something involving either Naruto or Itachi pops up...when things start getting personal for Sasuke, his leadership will fall apart.

u only read that part from whole post and others ?

[Rurouni Zeke]

Originally Posted by SpiRo

This is last we dont agree so lets talk about it ^^

1. When u put that way, then every one is selfish becouse they have benefits of what they do ?

2. U cant leave whole life to help others that is rly absurd, every one have something that wanna do or finish alone. Doeas that mean every man on planet is selfish ?

Both of this have to side on past and motive .. and his past and motive is on his side..

Yes, everyone is selfish to some extent, even if it's just a little bit. It's in our nature. Do you have an example of someone who isn't? It's just that not everyone would sacrifice as much as Sasuke would (including his body or the lives of anyone who gets in his way) to achieve their goals. Sasuke's selfishness goes to a farther extent than your average guy. There's a difference between just being selfish and being selfish to a fault. I didn't really understand that last sentence, though.

[SpiRo]

Originally Posted by Rurouni Zeke

Yes, everyone is selfish to some extent, even if it's just a little bit. It's in our nature. Do you have an example of someone who isn't? It's just that not everyone would sacrifice as much as Sasuke would (including his body or the lives of anyone who gets in his way) to achieve their goals. Sasuke's selfishness goes to a farther extent than your average guy. There's a difference between just being selfish and being selfish to a fault. I didn't really understand that last sentence, though.

i wanted to say this but im little tired ^^

Both of this have two sides, past of the man and motive .. and his past and motive are on his side..
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-But if all peaople r selfish, then that dont respond on leadership..