Macross / Robotech connection

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by TakCWAL

I remember watching 'Robotech' only several years ago, when a friend showed me a recording from a dusty VHS tape. But I cannot but to feel insulted after viewing. This negative feeling was reinforced after I learned what Harmony Gold is doing with the 'Macross' license. Keep in mind that I grew up with Macross, and it has a special place in my childhood memories. Its my favorite series of all time, and I feel extremely uncomfortable to see it being scrambled like stir-fry in a sub-par production.

I grew up watching Robotech and it holds a place in my memories as well. There was nothing "sub-par" about Robotech compared to its contemporaries airing at the same time in 1985, i.e.: He-Man, Thundercats and Voltron (which was sliced and diced even worse than Macross!) AND Robotech was the only cartoon that showed that in war there was death... not conveniently falling into a handy lake!

How you can slice n' dice existing productions, glue them with other productions and call it a 'complete series' is beyond me. Thats like taking Star Wars, mix it with footage from Star Trek, and dub it 'Star Crap'.

What truly is crap, is Japanese anime companies making multiple anime series using the SAME characters but only changing bits about their pasts... Tenchi OVA, Tenchi Universe and Tenchi in Tokyo anybody?

Even worse is the way they treat original characters. HG had to force a connection even though characters from a previous saga had absolutely NOTHING with the following saga. I mean, did HG really, REALLY have to create a 'DANA STERLING'? What the HELL was that all about?

I know it's lame, but they had to bridge the gap between series somehow...

Then, since the original Macross characters could not appear in a universe that does not belong to them, HG had them relegate into totally different characters with completely unrecognizable personalities. I mean, Admiral 'Rick Hunter'? What-the-f**k?

What? Do you expect him to stay a fighter jock for 20 years?

There were so many things wrong with Robotech to the point that it now reaches a state beyond repair and redemption.

- Tak

Except that when it aired in 1985 it was right in so many things and helped start the anime boom in North America (before Akira kicked it into overdrive!)



Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech_(TV_series)

[glyph]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

I know it's lame, but they had to bridge the gap between series somehow...
What? Do you expect him to stay a fighter jock for 20 years?

I think he means Rick Hunter's out of character "let's nuke earth to kingdom come to keep it from the hands of the invid" order in Robotech.

I can't believe it took HG this long to realize that the Mars Expeditionary Force were supposed to be the real villains of MOSPEADA, and to finally find a scapegoat to excuse that action in Shadow Chronicles.

[TakCWAL]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

What truly is crap, is Japanese anime companies making multiple anime series using the SAME characters but only changing bits about their pasts... Tenchi OVA, Tenchi Universe and Tenchi in Tokyo anybody?

At least Tenchi maintained their connection to each other with more justification than the scrambled egg that is Robotech! AND, at least Tecnhi isn't about slicing and dicing footages, its original creative work. Robotech is anything BUT. I cannot believe HG would defend a show they did not create, and then proceed to downplay its original production staff. They weren't even listed in the original credits (ie. character design by Haruhiko Mikimoto, who happen to be one of my favorite artists)!

There was absolutely NOTHING of originality to be noted in HG's effort. What HG exercised was about the worst practice of capitalism I have ever seen.

And just for your information, I am no Tenchi fan.

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

I know it's lame, but they had to bridge the gap between series somehow...
What? Do you expect him to stay a fighter jock for 20 years?

Except that role had always intended to be passed onto Misa (or Lisa for some), who had the proper military education and the etiquettes to carry out that function! Even Robotech does not make an alteration to her military education nor the story's intention for her to be a captain of sorts. Rick on the other hand, had never ever commandeered a spaceship beyond the size of fighters! Nor was he trained to handle anything bigger than a squadron!

As glyph stated, they wrote off Hikaru in the absolute worst manner and the most off-character fashion possible! A single line pretty much destroyed his character. And he is right on the spot about HG not knowing DIDDY-JACK about Mospeda.

Bottom line: If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense!

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Except that when it aired in 1985 it was right in so many things and helped start the anime boom in North America (before Akira kicked it into overdrive!)

Except it initiated nothing more than a fad, just like your Astro-boy, Voltron, Speed Racer and others before it. Anime in the US lay dormant for a very long time from the 80s until the late 90s (sure, there was Sailor Moon, but that didn't do much to enhance anime's popularity). Then, suddenly, out of the blue came... POKEMON.

Not until very recently do we see an explosion of anime goods in the United States, and it is very debatable how much that has to do with a show aired decades ago. It certainly had more to do with lil' monsters that fit in your pockets.

- Tak

[Jazzrat]

Well i didnt care much about the story to be honest with Robotech when i watched it( i was still a kid) but man.... those bike-transforming power suit was cool as hell and so were the invids mech (i actually had a few of those when i was young).

Southern Cross was kinda meh though.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

On watching Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles, it's readily apparent that all of the references in that show were to Mospeada. It feels like Harmony Gold is trying to avoid as much references to, and imagery of SDF Macross as possible.

Barring at least one Southern Cross character, name checking of Rick and Exedore and another of Max and Miryia's daughters showing up?

It is set at the end of Mospeada, so the mecha are going to be REF rather than RDF or SC.

Originally Posted by TakCWAL

Rick on the other hand, had never ever commandeered a spaceship beyond the size of fighters! Nor was he trained to handle anything bigger than a squadron!

Odd, I definately remember him commanding the SDF 3's Veritech wings for the REF.

And he and Lisa were both charter members of the Sentinals inner council.

Lisa has the problem that the Edwards Mutiny occured while she was the REF's senior officer. Which combinded with the Sentinals experience that veritechs were the primary weapon against the invid rather than capital ships may have lead to the governing comitee pushing Rick for the job.

[TakCWAL]

Originally Posted by dahak

Odd, I definately remember him commanding the SDF 3's Veritech wings for the REF.

And he and Lisa were both charter members of the Sentinals inner council.

Lisa has the problem that the Edwards Mutiny occured while she was the REF's senior officer. Which combinded with the Sentinals experience that veritechs were the primary weapon against the invid rather than capital ships may have lead to the governing comitee pushing Rick for the job.

If you read my post carefully, you will note I was not talking about the jumbled craptastic side stories HG managed to muster after the end of the ORIGINAL Macross or the first portion of Robotech. Whether it is Macross or the original Robotech: Macross saga, Hikaru (or Ricky, whatever) never, ever commandeered anything larger than a fighter wing. EVER!

The role of captain had always fell upon Misa's shoulders, not Hikaru, who never had experience or the credentials to do so.

- Tak

[Onizuka-GTO]

crowkenobi you disappoint me. Falling to the heretical darkside, that which is all that is unholy to the Macross purity.

how could you?!

Is this result of all those poor child soldiers, ruthlessly forced into this epic crusade for our very Animu Spirita?!

I won't give up, i'll save you! one day! kusokusokusoooo!

*sobs/hose crowkenobi in holy Macross purified oil/lights it*

[TakCWAL]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's also highly unlikely that Warner Brothers is going to pay much attention to Big West or Studio Nue since they already seem to have secured whatever rights they feel they needed.

Wouldn't be surprised if Big West, Studio Nue and/or even Bandai would bang a big law suit against HG when the movie finally premiers (no doubt it will premier in Japan, and renamed Super Dimension Fortress: Macross/超時空要塞マクロス). HG is just asking for it. The question is, when.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That happened an awful long time ago, and Harmony Gold's current position is vastly different from what it was before. On watching Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles, it's readily apparent that all of the references in that show were to Mospeada. It feels like Harmony Gold is trying to avoid as much references to, and imagery of SDF Macross as possible. I don't find this too surprising given how shaky their legal position is on the IP.

Then they licensed the name 'Macross' in the US. Doesn't exactly help the situation. I'd be much happier if HG would leave Macross alone and let associated merchandise flow into the states freely. It'd make everyone happy.

OFFTOPIC

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What the heck happened to your username?

Remember that security issue Animesuki had a while ago? My user name was axed, and my recovery information was lost. So I had to make a new one *sniff* (Wait, AXE that, I just recovered my user name. Never-mind)

Oh, and buddy, check this out http://gineiden-game.jp/

I love what they are doing with it.

- Tak (Still playing ACE 3)

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by glyph

I think he means Rick Hunter's out of character "let's nuke earth to kingdom come to keep it from the hands of the invid" order in Robotech.

I can't believe it took HG this long to realize that the Mars Expeditionary Force were supposed to be the real villains of MOSPEADA, and to finally find a scapegoat to excuse that action in Shadow Chronicles.

Personaly I loved the robotech books. They were very well writen and manged to merge all the storylines wonderfuly. They also gave a reason why nukeing Earth was an option. In them the Invid Genisus Pits would have destroyed the planet and It's not like large areas were not already radioactive wastes because of the Zentradi.

I think they had plans to show this in the Sentanals, I mean the books which came out in the late 80's early 90's had a Huge subplot about Edwards takeing over and also showed a lot of strife among the upper brass

And if I remeber correctly they only said they were waiting for word from Admiral Hunter never stateing which one (both Rick and Lisa were Admirals at that time, She in charge of that space fleet and he was in charge of the fighters)

[dahak]

Originally Posted by TakCWAL

If you read my post carefully, you will note I was not talking about the jumbled craptastic side stories HG managed to muster after the end of the ORIGINAL Macross or the first portion of Robotech. Whether it is Macross or the original Robotech: Macross saga, Hikaru (or Ricky, whatever) never, ever commandeered anything larger than a fighter wing. EVER!

Your original post didn't make it clear you wished to ignore everything after episode 36 of Robotech. I assumed you just hadn't watched Robetch II:Sentinels from your lack. Which does after all have General Rick Hunter marrying Admiral Lisa Hayes on screen.

Not that complaining about a quote from a later episode [set 30 years later] makes much sense under that logic. Especially since apparently only those things that happend in a different universe [Macross rather than Robotech] from that episode have any validity for you. And since that episode doesn't happen in the Macross timeline it shouldn't be a problem for you. the Idea that Macross and Robotech are in different timeline shouldn't be a problem for a Macross fan, what with the Original series vs DRYL and Macross II vs Macross Plus.

If you ignore Robotech II:Sentinals [Why an OVA intended to be the pilot for a follow up series written by Macek is not aceptable evidence for a things going on in a series written by Macek seems strange.] and the Novels you have no evidence Lisa is still alive as of 2044 [Having last seen her in 2012]. Also you have thirty years for Rick to gain experience and rank in.

If you don't ignore them then there is the Edwards Mutiny and the REF/Sentinals experiences against the Invid to give reasons for Rick to be leading. Lisa's closeness to the Praxian exiles may not have helped.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by dahak

Which does after all have General Rick Hunter marrying Admiral Lisa Hayes on screen.

In Macross, Hikaru eventually weds Misa and had a daughter. Except over here you said it yourself, 'General' Rick Hunter weds 'Admiral' Lisa Hayes. It is common sense that 'Generals' don't simply become 'Admirals', and 'Generals' do not commandeer fleets.

Originally Posted by dahak

Also you have thirty years for Rick to gain experience and rank in.

Right, and in midst of alien invasions, rebuilding the planet and new problems arising on a daily basis, I am sure he has all the free time in the world to be immersed in experience gaining and ranking-in. It doesn't even matter if 'Lisa' died in between, why should he even bother with fleet-works when he has his own mess to handle?

Claims regarding validity is a moot point. Robotech never had much validity in the first place, and I am sure Macek probably did not expect Robotech to become anything else other than a Saturday morning cartoon (by his own reasoning, the show had to be connected for syndication reasons, nothing more. He initially intended to simply port the original). Any source materials you mentioned here (including novels) were published as a result of Robotech's unexpected popularity and came after the franchise had ended its original run. No doubt those were a shabby attempt to connect the three shows that should not have been forcefully connected in the first place!

Once again, if it does not mean to sense, it does not make sense!

Originally Posted by dahak

he Idea that Macross and Robotech are in different timeline shouldn't be a problem for a Macross fan

I would have a lot less problems if Robotech was a stand-alone original work by HG, except it wasn't, and I would have no problems if HG wasn't holding onto something that is simply not theirs to begin with.

- Tak (It would appear, I've somehow recovered my user name...)

[Kenu]

As I was flicking through this forum and saw this thread, I had a thought there would be possibility of conflict between the purist Macross fans and other views on Robotech. It only took the second page to start and the third page to really get rancid.

For Tak & Onizuka, Crow is only defending the fact that Robotech was responsible for a huge anime boom in the 80s. Without Robotech, I think it would be hard to argue that more damage was done by showing Robotech than not having it all.

Times were different back then. Anime rarely made it across the Pacific Ocean without alterations. You only need to look at Star Blazers, Gatchaman / Battle of the Planets to see this.

Ponder for a moment, would it have been better if we had no Macross or Macross via Robotech?

Back then when I was a kid, I loved the story about Rick Hunter, Lisa Hayes, Minmei and of course Roy Fokker. His death is still one of the most sadder moments in anime for me.

Would it be better to deny western audiences the delights and sorrows of Macross or to have it modified slightly so that others outside Japan can also watch it?

Carl Macek and HG believed the latter. Macek detailed in his books why he had to create Robotech a three part series. He wanted to bring Macross to the west because he believed it was an excellent anime. I also wanted to know why Macross was changed to be Robotech. So I read into it.


So why in a nutshell was Macross modified and joined with two other series?

The simple answer is there was not enough episodes of SDF Macross to syndicate on TV. He was working within his rules to bring Macross to western audiences. He needed something like 80+ episodes while Macross was only 36 episodes.


While Macross in Robotech was not identical to the original it is very similar. Infact probably remains the least altered of all three stories.

No one likes mistranslated work. I mean who wants to have "Dopplerganger!" when "Shadow Clone!" is a more literal translation or even better "Kagebunshin". But these things still happen in professional work. Regardless, instead of Robotech these days, kids are growing up with Yugioh, Sailor Moon, Naruto and the like. Adults these days can tune in late at night and watch GitS:SAC, ErgoProxy, etc.


Today, things are very different. Translated anime comes out sometimes the same day as it airs in Japan. The quality of work both Fan and Professional is so high these days it's impossible to compare it to what was done over 20 years ago. There was no internet, no DVD, no CD, only crappy VHS. It took weeks even by airmail to get anything shipped over. Hardly anyone spoke other languages, now many are multilingual. Anime fandom was in it's infancy then. Now it's reaching maturity. Very different times...



Now I would say because of the exposure of Robotech, Akira and before that Astroboy, people can enjoy anime now in all its forms. I would say Robotech helped rather than hindered the growth of anime in the west.

[Tak]

I generally have no problem with the base decision itself to combine the three shows. Although there were major exceptions to the 'syndication' rule, and it needed not be some 80+ episodes to air.

Regardless, kudos to Carl Macek for bringing Robotech, but up his arse for ruining the license.

The way he and HG handled the license ruined the franchise for everyone in North America. Due to their baseless claim on something not of their creation, Macross merchandise (those without a Robotech brand) will never be exposed to a larger audience in the near future, all because HG had chosen to exploit loopholes through the absolute worst methods found in Capitalism.

- Tak

[Beltane70]

I may be wrong, but I think Macek left HG quite a way before HG started all this trouble in the late 90s. It wasn't until recently that HG started paying attention to Robotech again.

[yadango]

hey.... i resent that merchandise comment :-P, it's just not true lol.

any fan of robotech knows about macross/genesis climber and knows that the japanese toys/models/figures were and are still much better quality than anything revell or matchbox (or even the newer toynami stuff) ever put out. i would say robotech actually helped sell macross/mospeada merchandise (at least back then). i am looking at my gakken alpha and my toynami anniversary one right now and the toynami one is a piece of junk compared to the one made over 20 years ago.

lol anyone remember the crap revell used to put out? revell pumped out so many models with the name ROBOTECH on them it was ridiculous. but nobody ever bought them because most of them sucked and weren't even from the cartoon (they just made a random robot model and put ROBOTECH on the box lol... seriously). if you wanted a good model you bought the japanese (macross) stuff!

even today, anyone who wants to buy robotech merchandise, knows that they're better off buying the bandai/yamato stuff rather than the toynami stuff.

[Onizuka-GTO]

bandai/yamato sell robotech merchandise?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kenu

Would it be better to deny western audiences the delights and sorrows of Macross or to have it modified slightly so that others outside Japan can also watch it?

Another point to note is that pretty much all anime brought over to R1 was modified in some way. It's arguable that the Macross portion of Robotech actually fared better than other contemporary shows like Gatchaman or Star Blazers.

Originally Posted by Tak

I generally have no problem with the base decision itself to combine the three shows. Although there were major exceptions to the 'syndication' rule, and it needed not be some 80+ episodes to air.

Back in the early '80s? Nope, you'd never see a syndicated show with just 36 episodes - there just isn't enough material to justify broadcasting it in "strip" runs.

Originally Posted by Tak

The way he and HG handled the license ruined the franchise for everyone in North America. Due to their baseless claim on something not of their creation, Macross merchandise (those without a Robotech brand) will never be exposed to a larger audience in the near future, all because HG had chosen to exploit loopholes through the absolute worst methods found in Capitalism.

A lot of this is due to the way licenses were negotiated back then. The Japanese companies never expected foreign sales to amount to much, so they gave a lot more leeway to North American companies than they would now.

Originally Posted by Beltane70

I may be wrong, but I think Macek left HG quite a way before HG started all this trouble in the late 90s. It wasn't until recently that HG started paying attention to Robotech again.

That's pretty much correct. However, it's not really Harmony Gold's fault either: the whole mess started with FASA suing Playmates over the design of a bunch of their toys. Playmates then brought Harmony Gold in as a countersuit, and the whole thing eventually involved Studio Nue, Big West, and Tatsunoko as well.

The real blame (if any can be attributed at all) lies with the way Tatsunoko was far too loose with their license agreement.

You can read up on more of the sordid details in the Macross Legalities thread.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Back in the early '80s? Nope, you'd never see a syndicated show with just 36 episodes - there just isn't enough material to justify broadcasting it in "strip" runs.

They were also showing 'Transformers'. An earlier example would also include 'Speed Racer'. None of these ever reached the minimum required for syndicated broadcasting. Moreover, syndication does not justify the three shows being forcefully connected into one separate universe known as 'Robotech'.

I doubt CM himself was aware of Robotech's eventual popularity, and HG unexpectedly struck gold. That is all. So now they claim ownership over the license anyway they can, even if their claim is absolutely and totally baseless.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

A lot of this is due to the way licenses were negotiated back then. The Japanese companies never expected foreign sales to amount to much, so they gave a lot more leeway to North American companies than they would now.

Sadly but true. They never expected sale in North America to amount anywhere near East Asia, so judging by how previous anime did in the US, they allowed Macross to be handled without much specifics. Although how does that justify HG's recent action regarding the 'Macross' license is really another matter.

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by dahak

Barring at least one Southern Cross character, name checking of Rick and Exedore and another of Max and Miryia's daughters showing up?

True, but they also made sure that Rick doesn't look anything like he did in SDF Macross, and that the word "Zentraedi" was never used, and so on. It seemed to me as if Harmony Gold was trying to avoid trouble.

Originally Posted by Tak

They were also showing 'Transformers'. An earlier example would also include 'Speed Racer'. None of these ever reached the minimum required for syndicated broadcasting. Moreover, syndication does not justify the three shows being forcefully connected into one separate universe known as 'Robotech'.

Transformers was a largely American show, so they were airing it as it was being made. As such, it's prime focus wasn't the syndication market. Speed Racer aired in the late '60s, and I'm pretty sure that syndication worked a bit differently back then.

Originally Posted by Tak

I doubt CM himself was aware of Robotech's eventual popularity, and HG unexpectedly struck gold. That is all. So now they claim ownership over the license anyway they can, even if their claim is absolutely and totally baseless.

I'm not so sure that Harmony Gold's really claiming ownership. While they've tried to do things with the Robotech property for a while now, they've also steered away from trying to claim much that's attributed to Macross itself - their legal standing is just too shaky to rely upon.

That they gave the rights to Warner Brothers surprised me quite a bit, but it's still unclear whether the movie will have much to do with Macross. I think that the Japanese companies are also waiting to see if it is. In any case, it's probable that if it does come down to a legal battle, it'll be with Warner Brothers, and they have awfully deep pockets for such a fight. The upside to all of this is that a legal proceeding can also clear up the rights issue once and for all - perhaps even allowing the other Macross works to get licensed (except for Macross 7 of course ).

[Onizuka-GTO]

you know, if they have trouble licencing Macross 7 because of all the songs, i dunno what that's gonna say about Macross Frontier considering there is a lot of singing in that too. Maybe not on the scale of Macross 7, but it's certainly going to more then the original or that was featured in Plus and Zero.

Seriously, i don't want to sound terrible, (sorry Robotech-heathens) but i hope there IS something that is wrong with the licence to Warner Brother.

we need something to force this issue to be resolved, and it's gonna take a wrangle over little details then so be it.