Aldnoah.Zero - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Marina2

Nah, that was in the past. Right now, it is for the princess.

I'm doubting that is is the only reason.
That his buddy can rescue Asseylums life is a pluspoint that he could not refuse to use. But Slaine had no problem with helping Saaz last season and he still has no problem with that in this season. He still believes in Saaz and is gladly helping him with his plans to exterminate humans on earth. Saaz is his ally and from Slaines point of view, it is only resonable to work together with him.

[Arya]

Until Asseylum is in a coma he is stuck with Saazbaum no matter what. On the other hand it is true that he didn't show any regret on whatever Saazbaum is doing, and so he is helping with, to the Terrans.
For that reason Asseyum needs to wake up at a certain point IMO, to make Slaine faces what he is ignoring right now, forcing him to make a choice. Between her or Saazbaum.

That, letting aside what could happen to her when she'll wake up, talking about Lemrina here, more than Saazbaum. Having on the opposite side maybe Eddelrittuo, but she seems to be really prone to be a servant, no matter who is the master. Now that Slaine is a Knight she has no problems with him. But instead she was ready to tell everything she knew about Inaho and Co. who instead are not Martians nor VERS.

[cyth]

I like how the show is dictated by childish resentments. Lemrina princess captures the essence of why so many bad anime hinge on teenage power fantasies.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Marina2

It is the best option from his position. Think about it. In the last ep. of the first season;

Q: Asseylum princess life is in danger condition. What should he do?

A: Bring her to Earth side to ask for help?
- Bad idea. He can't go to earth side and he probably don't think the Earth-side will have technology to save her.

B: Escape to somewhere with her?
- He has no way to help her

C: Left her body there?
- NO WAY.

D: Go back to the MAR side to use their technology to save princess.
- Sound like the best idea to save princess' life for him. Working for Saazbaum won't hurt as long as he can save Asseylum. And he NEED to follow Saazbaum order as a deal.

Let's see:

A is unnecessary when he can do C. The Terrans were already there taking over the base. He doesn't need to do anything to leave her to the Terrans. In fact, it might've been a better choice for her health instead of transporting her in a kat. And as for the technology to help her, she's suffering from gunshot wounds, not some magical Aldnoah health problem.

Or

With B/D, he can still go to the Martians after leaving/killing Saazbaum, who is a proven threat to Asseylum's life, twice.

And of course, there's the fact that he could have not saved Saazbaum in the first place.

[Marina2]

Originally Posted by monster

Let's see:

A is unnecessary when he can do C. The Terrans were already there taking over the base. He doesn't need to do anything to leave her to the Terrans. In fact, it might've been a better choice for her health instead of transporting her in a kat. And as for the technology to help her, she's suffering from gunshot wounds, not some magical Aldnoah health problem.

Or

With B/D, he can still go to the Martians after leaving/killing Saazbaum, who is a proven threat to Asseylum's life, twice.

And of course, there's the fact that he could have not saved Saazbaum in the first place.

1. MAR have better technology. The survival chance is higher. So, go back to MAR side is better choice. (and If Slaine choose to leave princess body there, Slaine haters will say that "he doesn't really love Asseylum since he left her and escaped " , right? )

2. Saazbaum's life is needed because he was the only one person that Slaine can ask for help at that moment. And they already made a deal. If Saazbaum still want to kill Asseylum , he would already done it in the past 19 months.

Saazbaum could just order his soilder to kill both Slaine and Asseylum when they were unaware on his ship. Since he didn't do that, then, it means Saazbaum is keeping his promise (I don't know, maybe Saazbaum is just stupid.)

[monster]

Originally Posted by Marina2

1. MAR have better technology. The survival chance is higher. So, go back to MAR side is better choice. (and If Slaine choose to leave princess body there, Slaine haters will say that "he doesn't really love Asseylum since he left her and escaped " , right? )

2. Saazbaum's life is needed because he was the only one person that Slaine can ask for help at that moment. And they already made a deal. If Saazbaum still want to kill Asseylum , he would already done it in the past 19 months.

Saazbaum could just order his soilder to kill both Slaine and Asseylum when they were unaware on his ship. Since he didn't do that, then, it means Saazbaum is keeping his promise (I don't know, maybe Saazbaum is just stupid.)

That Saazbaum honored his deal doesn't mean that he couldn't have betrayed Slaine or that he wouldn't still. By having him dead, Slaine would've ensured a bigger blow of defeat to Saazbaum's faction, who was up to that point determined to kill Asseylum.

And while the Martians may have better technology, that doesn't mean the Terrans weren't a viable option for treating gunshot wounds.

[Raziel1991]

Originally Posted by Marina2

1. MAR have better technology. The survival chance is higher. So, go back to MAR side is better choice. (and If Slaine choose to leave princess body there, Slaine haters will say that "he doesn't really love Asseylum since he left her and escaped " , right? )

And yet the terrans managed to save Inaho from a headshot and he is now fully recovered due to the cyborg stuff. The princess on the other hand is still in coma.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Raziel1991

And yet the terrans managed to save Inaho from a headshot and he is now fully recovered due to the cyborg stuff. The princess in the other hand is still in coma.

I don't think we're supposed to look too deeply into that.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Raziel1991

And yet the terrans managed to save Inaho from a headshot and he is now fully recovered due to the cyborg stuff. The princess on the other hand is still in coma.

But how is Slaine supposed to know that? It's better to go with what you know than the people who, a few minutes ago were trying to kill you. And it IS a pretty well known fact by both sides that Vers has superior technology. It could be that her specific injuries wouldn't have been healed as well on Earth than in Vers. Earth doesn't seem to have one of those healing vats so we can't be sure.

Also, you forget that they had a hard enough time just getting Inaho to surgery in time and that he would have died without the plot convience of Aldnoah power. Asseylum would have been even more baggage that they would have had to split their already limited medical staff. The Terrans would have probably lost one of them.

Remember also that Asseylum was injured worse than Inaho. The drive actually shut off, which means she was again very near death or practically dead. When Inaho touched it, even while shot in the head, the drive actually started up and kept on the entire time. The drive recognized Inaho as being more "alive" than Asseylum. So who knows if the Terrans could have saved her?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

But how is Slaine supposed to know that? It's better to go with what you know than the people who, a few minutes ago were trying to kill you.

It's interesting that Slaine didn't apply that same logic to Saazbaum whom he knew had tried to kill Asseylum and is trying to again.

And it IS a pretty well known fact by both sides that Vers has superior technology. It could be that her specific injuries wouldn't have been healed as well on Earth than in Vers. Earth doesn't seem to have one of those healing vats so we can't be sure.

It's not like Earth has a primitive technology. The point is it's still an option that he has.

Also, you forget that they had a hard enough time just getting Inaho to surgery in time and that he would have died without the plot convience of Aldnoah power. Asseylum would have been even more baggage that they would have had to split their already limited medical staff. The Terrans would have probably lost one of them.

Asseylum wouldn't be a baggage considering she was actually valuable. She would've been top priority.

Now, regarding the Terrans having a hard time getting Inaho some medical care, first of all Slaine wouldn't know that considering the Terrans were winning and taking over the base. And second of all, he could also actually communicate with them considering Asseylum's worth. He would then still be able to use his kat if it turns out they needed transportation. Or he could even help them activate the Deucalion's drive.

Remember also that Asseylum was injured worse than Inaho. The drive actually shut off, which means she was again very near death or practically dead. When Inaho touched it, even while shot in the head, the drive actually started up and kept on the entire time. The drive recognized Inaho as being more "alive" than Asseylum. So who knows if the Terrans could have saved her?

Then again, Inaho was near the drive, and distance is a factor in activation.

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by monster

Then again, Inaho was near the drive, and distance is a factor in activation.

I'm not sure it actually is, at least once the drive is activated. I mean, Saazbaum could leave his castle, fly down to Earth and murder Cruhteo without his castle's drive shutting off, and that's a much bigger distance than Asseylum was from the Deucalion.

[monster]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

I'm not sure it actually is, at least once the drive is activated. I mean, Saazbaum could leave his castle, fly down to Earth and murder Cruhteo without his castle's drive shutting off, and that's a much bigger distance than Asseylum was from the Deucalion.

I said activation, not usage. Asseylum's critical well being sent the drive off, but we don't know if she could've reactivated it again by getting close to it like Inaho did.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by monster

It's interesting that Slaine didn't apply that same logic to Saazbaum whom he knew had tried to kill Asseylum and is trying to again.

Okay, I'm not even going to go into that argument again. We already have pages and pages regarding what he should and shouldn't have done and where his mind and priorities were at at that time back in episode 12, and I'm not going to go into it again. If you want to know my opinion you can go back to the episode 12 thread.
In terms of this situation, I think that it's perfectly logical and even human nature to go back to what you know inhabits safety, rather than take a chance on something that is not a sure thing. Slaine's last encounter with the Terrans had them trying to kill him, so there's not a lot of trust there. Also, he had no idea of knowing how long it would take them to get to them there in that chamber or how far away their medical services and staff were and if they even had enough medical supplies to be able to treat such critical wounds. Remember that they were in the middle of Siberia next to a bunker that had just had the crap blown out of it. It doesn't really inspire a lot of hope for quality help coming in time.

It's not like Earth has a primitive technology. The point is it's still an option that he has.

But it's primitive in comparison to Vers tech, and while an option, it wasn't a very good one in his eyes (see reasons above) and made little sense. He probably considered it, but went with the easier and better option.

Asseylum wouldn't be a baggage considering she was actually valuable. She would've been top priority.

Now, regarding the Terrans having a hard time getting Inaho some medical care, first of all Slaine wouldn't know that considering the Terrans were winning and taking over the base. And second of all, he could also actually communicate with them considering Asseylum's worth. He would then still be able to use his kat if it turns out they needed transportation. Or he could even help them activate the Deucalion's drive.

In medicine, a person is a person, both Inaho and Asseylum needed immediate medical care and probably surgery. And so far, we've only seen one doctor at the base. Asseylum, despite being a princess, is still an extra person they would have had to patch up, stop the bleeding, and somehow carry to the cockpit. There's a lot of risk in just doing that, and a lot of time involved.

Also, the time that he would have required to talk, explain, and communicate can cost lives. At least with the Martians, they know to take orders and would recognize both Saazbaum and Slaine's uniform, which is less time and problems. Also remember that the UEF's victory, while a victory, was a Pyrrhic one. They'd lost a lot of supplies and men, that it practically undercut the success of the victory itself. That's not a situation that inspires confidence.

Slaine's first priority was Asseylum and Asseylum alone, he needed to get her help. He didn't care about the Terrans, Inaho, or even Saazbaum, his mind was singly on getting her to a doctor. The Terran side is full of too many what ifs, too many chances that he's not willing to take. He went with where he knew he could get help.

Then again, Inaho was near the drive, and distance is a factor in activation.

You are correct, distance is a factor. The activator has to touch the drive itself in order to turn it on or off. That's why it didn't turn on until Yuki touched Inaho's hand to it. However, the fact that it turned off in the first place does suggest that Asseylum was once again at death's door. However, the fact that the drive turned on and stayed on at Inaho's touch suggests that he was in less mortal danger than Asseylum.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Okay, I'm not even going to go into that argument again. We already have pages and pages regarding what he should and shouldn't have done and where his mind and priorities were at at that time back in episode 12, and I'm not going to go into it again. If you want to know my opinion you can go back to the episode 12 thread.
In terms of this situation, I think that it's perfectly logical and even human nature to go back to what you know inhabits safety, rather than take a chance on something that is not a sure thing. Slaine's last encounter with the Terrans had them trying to kill him, so there's not a lot of trust there. Also, he had no idea of knowing how long it would take them to get to them there in that chamber or how far away their medical services and staff were and if they even had enough medical supplies to be able to treat such critical wounds. Remember that they were in the middle of Siberia next to a bunker that had just had the crap blown out of it. It doesn't really inspire a lot of hope for quality help coming in time.

The fact of the matter is that they were closer to the Terrans geographically than to the Martians, and he is supposed to go the longer distance to get help from people who had demonstrably attempted to kill Aseylum more than once over people who would actually benefit from having her live?

And your only response is that it's because he couldn't trust the Terrans because they tried to kill him when he's the one who shot at Inaho first and also entered a battlefield in Martian technology whereas he could trust people who wanted Asseylum dead because at least he knew them? So it's about Slaine and his comfort zone/insecurity rather than what's best for Asseylum.

But it's primitive in comparison to Vers tech, and while an option, it wasn't a very good one in his eyes (see reasons above) and made little sense. He probably considered it, but went with the easier and better option.

It would've made more sense to Slaine if he would've stepped out of his comfort zone instead of going with his paranoia about Earth being the enemy.

In medicine, a person is a person, both Inaho and Asseylum needed immediate medical care and probably surgery. And so far, we've only seen one doctor at the base. Asseylum, despite being a princess, is still an extra person they would have had to patch up, stop the bleeding, and somehow carry to the cockpit. There's a lot of risk in just doing that, and a lot of time involved.

It's not about her being a princess, but about her being a military asset. I can definitely see the military pushing her to be given priority.

Also, the time that he would have required to talk, explain, and communicate can cost lives. At least with the Martians, they know to take orders and would recognize both Saazbaum and Slaine's uniform, which is less time and problems. Also remember that the UEF's victory, while a victory, was a Pyrrhic one. They'd lost a lot of supplies and men, that it practically undercut the success of the victory itself. That's not a situation that inspires confidence.

The time it would take to get to the nearest Martian base would be even longer. Even with whatever losses they had, the region is still largely a Terran region.

Slaine's first priority was Asseylum and Asseylum alone, he needed to get her help. He didn't care about the Terrans, Inaho, or even Saazbaum, his mind was singly on getting her to a doctor. The Terran side is full of too many what ifs, too many chances that he's not willing to take. He went with where he knew he could get help.

There's many what-ifs and taking of chances with the Martians as well. The fact of the matter is, Slaine is still preferring Saazbaum even after his known repeated attempts at murdering Asseylum.

You are correct, distance is a factor. The activator has to touch the drive itself in order to turn it on or off. That's why it didn't turn on until Yuki touched Inaho's hand to it. However, the fact that it turned off in the first place does suggest that Asseylum was once again at death's door. However, the fact that the drive turned on and stayed on at Inaho's touch suggests that he was in less mortal danger than Asseylum.

Again, we would never know considering Inaho was nearby and he had received first aid while Asseylum went on a ride in Slaine's kat to wherever the nearest Martian base was. That couldn't have been good to her injuries.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by monster

So it's about Slaine and his comfort zone/insecurity rather than what's best for Asseylum. It would've made more sense to Slaine if he would've stepped out of his comfort zone instead of going with his paranoia about Earth being the enemy.

I think that it's not only a matter of paranoia. We have to factor into the equation that he at a certain point decided to side with the Martians and that what happened in that chamber changed him.

So, here another possibility, let's reverse the question, what could he have done if Asseylum really died? If he had chosen to surrender to Inaho he most probably would have been imprisoned. He could have done nothing worthy from his POW (about which we still don't fully know where it stands. But yes, by killing Inaho he almost killed the only hope Earth would have had, but well, yeah, as I said he took a side so he surely prioritized that side).
What if he had chosen to help Saazbaum? He would have still had the chance, following an obvious even for himself dark path, in the hope to gain the power needed to make the difference. Saazbaum needed him. They would have Asseylum, dead or alive, a win-win situation in both cases. He would have been a hero because he saved the princess or because he took her corpse to where she belong, to her people to her family.

But all the Terrans then? He will face it sooner or later. ( my guess is that he will sacrifice himself to save Asseylum or Inaho, that would be the easiest way for the writers to handle the matter ).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Arya

I think that it's not only a matter of paranoia. We have to factor into the equation that he at a certain point decided to side with the Martians and that what happened in that chamber changed him.

Even with that, I don't think Saazbaum made a persuasive argument for restarting the war and sacrificing Asseylum, especially when Slaine should've known about Asseylum and her innocence.

So, here another possibility, let's reverse the question, what could he have done if Asseylum really died? If he had chosen to surrender to Inaho he most probably would have been imprisoned. He could have done nothing worthy from his POW (about which we still don't fully know where it stands. But yes, by killing Inaho he almost killed the only hope Earth would have had, but well, yeah, as I said he took a side so he surely prioritized that side).
What if he had chosen to help Saazbaum? He would have still had the chance, following an obvious even for himself dark path, in the hope to gain the power needed to make the difference. Saazbaum needed him. They would have Asseylum, dead or alive, a win-win situation in both cases. He would have been a hero because he saved the princess or because he took her corpse to where she belong, to her people to her family.

Well, what if Slaine had chosen Saazbaum and then Saazbaum killed Asseylum as soon as he thinks he no longer need her? With the kind of guy Saazbaum is, is he any better than the Emperor? Unfortunately, not every revolution means that the replacement would be any better than what it replaces.

But all the Terrans then? He will face it sooner or later. ( my guess is that he will sacrifice himself to save Asseylum or Inaho, that would be the easiest way for the writers to handle the matter ).

I don't know about saving Inaho. We'll see.

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by monster

Well, what if Slaine had chosen Saazbaum and then Saazbaum killed Asseylum as soon as he thinks he no longer need her?

That, at least, I don't think Saazbaum will do. This is the man who, in order to satisfy a debt, launched an attack on an ally and then freed a boy who had intel that could severely derail his plans. He clearly takes enormous pride in following a particular code of honour, and I think it's unlikely that he would either renege on a deal he'd made with Slaine, or kill Asseylum after Slaine spared and then saved his life.

After all, one of the things he's very quick to establish when talking about his betrayal of the Emperor is how the Emperor betrayed him and the rest of Mars first - he's essentially extracting payment for a debt that the Emperor doesn't know he owes.

And Slaine knows all that. As much as he makes bad choices, he's not stupid, and he's good at predicting how people will act.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by monster

Even with that, I don't think Saazbaum made a persuasive argument for restarting the war and sacrificing Asseylum, especially when Slaine should've known about Asseylum and her innocence.

Yep, but at that point Saazbaum became a means to Slaine's goal. It doesn't matter anymore what he did the moment Slaine decided to walk that path. I don't think Slaine trusts Saazbaum, but he bet on the ultimate goal he is after, killing all the Royals. plus as DMurphy says, Saaz is a man of pride so he won't betray Slaine ... until that goal will be accomplished. That's somehow what Slaine could have bet on. until then a lot of things could change.

Originally Posted by monster

Well, what if Slaine had chosen Saazbaum and then Saazbaum killed Asseylum as soon as he thinks he no longer need her? With the kind of guy Saazbaum is, is he any better than the Emperor? Unfortunately, not every revolution means that the replacement would be any better than what it replaces.

Asseylum is not so relevant at this point, now what is more useful among Asseylum and Slaine is Slaine. He can pilot the Tharsis after all. And he pledged his loyalty to him. So it a good deal for him. (and that's why I'm expecting her to wake up, it would be interesting to see what will happen then, will she fully become the princess imprisoned in the tower?).
About Saazbaum not being better than the Emperor I obviously agree with you. But again, I'm assuming Slaine plan is to kill him (how he is committed to it it still to be seen), or near that. I'm under the impression he has still some hope he could be better than the Emperor, but at least he is on the fence

Originally Posted by monster

I don't know about saving Inaho. We'll see.

More likely Asseylum (and Inaho in the process maybe). What I'm expecting from the show is that will find a way to redeem him. Somehow I'm expecting a similar epilogue to S1 in which Slaine will make a different choice. But not really betting on it.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

If I recall correctly Slaine is a Knight now, and therefore a (minor) noble himself. So the footsloggers can't say diddly (at least not to his face). And since it appears that Slaine has become Saazbaum's right-hand man most of the nobility probably keep their comments to themselves as well. That's my take on this, anyway.

Even in season one, that Vers foot soldier who saved his life, then was promptly killed by an Earth soldier, gave the whole "I don't care if you're a Terran or Vers, you're fighting with us" speech. Have yet to see any evidence of the institutional bigotry that is supposedly propping up the ruling class. See it in the ruling class, sure, but the whole point was how the ruling class was supposed to be hoodwinking the people to give them a common enemy to better ignore the deficiencies in their society.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Arya

Yep, but at that point Saazbaum became a means to Slaine's goal. It doesn't matter anymore what he did the moment Slaine decided to walk that path. I don't think Slaine trusts Saazbaum, but he bet on the ultimate goal he is after, killing all the Royals. plus as DMurphy says, Saaz is a man of pride so he won't betray Slaine ... until that goal will be accomplished. That's somehow what Slaine could have bet on. until then a lot of things could change.

Saazbaum has betrayed people so long as it fits his goal. Essentially, Slaine's only advantage was gone the moment they stepped into Saazbaum's other base.

Asseylum is not so relevant at this point, now what is more useful among Asseylum and Slaine is Slaine. He can pilot the Tharsis after all. And he pledged his loyalty to him. So it a good deal for him. (and that's why I'm expecting her to wake up, it would be interesting to see what will happen then, will she fully become the princess imprisoned in the tower?).
About Saazbaum not being better than the Emperor I obviously agree with you. But again, I'm assuming Slaine plan is to kill him (how he is committed to it it still to be seen), or near that. I'm under the impression he has still some hope he could be better than the Emperor, but at least he is on the fence

Asseylum is relevant as long as Slaine thinks she's relevant and as long as they keep using her image and voice to further promote the war. Slaine himself is an added bonus, but I don't see him being necessary to Saazbaum's plan other than being a good soldier.

More likely Asseylum (and Inaho in the process maybe). What I'm expecting from the show is that will find a way to redeem him. Somehow I'm expecting a similar epilogue to S1 in which Slaine will make a different choice. But not really betting on it.

Did season 1 have an epilogue?