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cyth · 2015-03-20, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I highly doubt the author here is purporting sexist beliefs here. Sexism is the belief that one sex is naturally superior to another. Please tell me where in the world this belief is put forward by the narrative.

Sexism isn't just the belief you're describing, many other definitions fall under the word these days. I am not sure if I got it right, but let me correct myself in case I didn't - the show falls into the Korean TV drama mold and has in fact made Kaori into a poster girl for consumer-driven romance (this was the point I made earlier in the thread, the burden of repeating myself shouldn't rest on me). That promotes certain female stereotypes. You can always say "d'oh Kaori is a girl, of course she's going to act girly," and you're right, sexist is probably a bit of a strong one for what I'm trying to say. But she fell into that very special mold and I can't help her.

It also doesn't help her she's basically Kousei's foil for most of the show and we just found out she actually had agency of her own. For most of the show it looked like she was just filling Saki's shoes. I am talking about her development over the length of a whole show, not just what they shoved down our throat the last episode. It wasn't good.

And please just stop with progressive accusations. People these days are so fucking obsessed with feminism this feminism that that discussions get stiffened figuring out who's on which side. Knock it off.

kir44n · 2015-03-20, 20:52

The phrase "Shoved down the throat" runs counter to the amount of material that connects so much after the revelation of the letter. Even the paper the letter itself was written on was set up well in advance of its use. The series in it's entirety was written to have the "big reveal" set in the letter. Hell, the name of the series itself doesn't even fit until it's use in the letter.

Additionally, she does not fit the "sick girl" mold to the T either. At her lowest point, she suggested double suicide. She played it off quickly, but the seflishness that had been driving her behavior shows its darkest side in that moment. She was a fleshed out character, with a core motivation. And everything she does in the show can be seen as stemming from her motivation, and what she wants and how it conflicts within her.

Things can be subtle, and just because they are not readily apparent does not automatically mean they fit some "cliche" or "trope" based hole. A hexadecagon might look like a circle if you're not paying attention, but at the end of the day its not a circle.

RDNexus · 2015-03-20, 21:04

As it's being mentioned here, and I think I believe so as well, this story (no matter if it's akin to a K-Drama) plays itself by subtleties made by the author on purpose while giving us heartaches alongside a few funny moments to ease the feels.

That means that people must be capable of reading between the lines and try to predict the outcomes, while (in this case) trying to avoid getting a emotional breakdown because you could easily predict from early on that Kaori was set to die later on, it just wasn't confirming it straight in the face.

The fact that her time to shine was mostly during the 1st half was made on purpose so as to show us later on the harsh truth behind her, her own backstory and how it affects everyone is of great importance to her characterization.

The letter coming right at the end was actually well-played because earlier on would have dispelled a few things regarding the story, it was the last thread that connected all the dots.

A few characters had direct characterization while others were being thrown to us bit by bit, we had to use our heads a little (and harden our hearts).

Now, it's up to each person to decide, depending on their ideals and viewpoints, if everything was actually played right or not...

cyth · 2015-03-20, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kir44n

At her lowest point, she suggested double suicide. She played it off quickly, but the seflishness that had been driving her behavior shows its darkest side in that moment.

That is your interpretation of it. Mine was she just hipstered up the moment, as she did often before with book quotes.

bbee · 2015-03-20, 22:14

If Kaori was a stereotype, she was certainly not any "female" stereotype I've ever come across. The character of a "dying girl" is not so much a stereotype but an archetype. Being mortally ill is the kind of thing that tends to define a person, especially if it's from childhood. Deriding that is like saying that the Queen of England would just be somebody's grandmother if she wasn't the Queen. Entirely true and completely beside the point.

I take issue with the aforementioned agency the letter gives to Kaori. I don't believe it sits well with the bittersweet, contemplative nature of the show. Kaori was the warm spring breeze, the love at first sight, the accidental encounter - the free spirit, bound and driven only by her own fading. The ruminative, manipulative agency revealed in the letter tarnishes her character. There were hints, of course - the accidental "friend A" encounters while "waiting for Watari" after school. These moments are, to me, much more enjoyable viewed as motivated by blossoming love and the impetus of death. To think that Kaori was, at those times, plotting to enter some imaginary inner circle is not very appealing.
It also devalues Arima's growth. Having Kaori be something he discovered, tangential to his world, related but not enclosed - his own making rather than his mother's - is extremely valuable to his development. No purpose is served by this big reveal. Why couldn't the lie in April have been metaphoric rather than literal?

The show has other issues - chief among which is the repetitiveness of the musical themes. This idea of an emotional journey while performing on stage is interesting, and it plays rather well - at least, the first dozen or so times. Aftet that, it does drag. Did anyone count how many times "reach her" was said during a musical piece?

The cliche and trope I would have chosen to highlight is the lack of communication - the emotionally dumbfounded, seemingly blind to romantic signals, averbal male protagonist that is plaguing anime. Yet he is also inexplicably insigtful, wordy and poetic in his inner monologue. How could such a poet and musical prodigy not see through Kaori's lie, when we all could? Was anyone else reminded of Kyon?

That being said, I am a sucker for resounding inner monologue, romance, tragedy and let's face it - who doesn't like classical music? The show is quite easily the best of the season, and when taken in small doses, it plucks the heartstrings in tune with the romance.

One movement and a finale shy of a masterpiece - 7/10.

Reckoner · 2015-03-21, 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyth

Sexism isn't just the belief you're describing, many other definitions fall under the word these days. I am not sure if I got it right, but let me correct myself in case I didn't - the show falls into the Korean TV drama mold and has in fact made Kaori into a poster girl for consumer-driven romance (this was the point I made earlier in the thread, the burden of repeating myself shouldn't rest on me). That promotes certain female stereotypes. You can always say "d'oh Kaori is a girl, of course she's going to act girly," and you're right, sexist is probably a bit of a strong one for what I'm trying to say. But she fell into that very special mold and I can't help her.

It also doesn't help her she's basically Kousei's foil for most of the show and we just found out she actually had agency of her own. For most of the show it looked like she was just filling Saki's shoes. I am talking about her development over the length of a whole show, not just what they shoved down our throat the last episode. It wasn't good.

Usually when I think of sexism there has to be some form of discrimination, prejudice, or "unequal" treatment displayed. This is a rabbit hole I rather not go down, as by this view you will see that a huge amount of anime indeed purport sexism. Oh men are always getting hit in Shigatsu, but not women. Sexism! Oh Kousei's teacher said adolescent boys need a rival. Prejudice! Sexism! Shigatsu only draws beautiful girls. Sexism! Etc.

Let me be clear here. I get the point about consumer-driven romance here. However, let me turn this around. What's the bigger problem here that is pervasive in storytelling. To use the sick girl trope to milk emotional appeal, or the fact that men are rarely ever used to the same effect? Furthermore, what exactly bothers you about it? That it's emotionally manipulative? You say that it promotes certain KINDS of female stereotypes, but I really don't understand what female stereotype Kaori is. A recent series that had a sick girl story is Moshidora. That character was much closer to something very prototypical than Kaori in my point of view and someone who really had NO DEVELOPMENT whatsoever.

I don't consider the last episode reveal as bad writing because I think Kaori was always meant to be a bit of cipher for us until the very end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyth

And please just stop with progressive accusations. People these days are so fucking obsessed with feminism this feminism that that discussions get stiffened figuring out who's on which side. Knock it off.

I'm not trying to determine whose side you are on here. I am trying to stop corrosive conversation points. I don't see the need to bring in the matter of "sexism" here. To begin with, I see this anime as something too trivial to get upset over its content like some have, and second, it's not a conversation point that should be interjected so lightly from my pov. I think sexism is a pretty serious allegation, and I just want to avoid such points from derailing the substance of your argument.

I am a pretty liberal person myself you know.

creb · 2015-03-21, 01:10

I'm just glad she actually died. There were so many flags that I was starting to think we'd done a lap and she was actually going to survive the show.

As for where it falls in the pantheon of similar shows throughout the history of NoitaminA...well, I probably will only remember it for the show that was willing to actually kill one half of the love interest. It was fairly average and forgettable beyond that will they/won't they death angle.

Leo_Otaku · 2015-03-21, 02:31

I don't really see knowing Kaori's disease a major issue for me. Is it really that much of an issue for some people? Is it because it takes out that realm of realism?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Too many times series like this have forced happy endings because they in general audiences like happy endings, and this is my problem with Visual Arts Key series, in particular Clannad After Story in which the last few episodes almost destroyed the series for me.

For one thing Clannad is a visual novel, this is a manga. Players now have an expectation to have a certain kind of ending. AIR's ending was not well received so this is why they haven't gone down that route again. I would like to see more like them myself though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

and the show half the time looking like absolute turd on the animation front (lol A-1 unlimited stillframe works) it didn't quite reach the potential. I joked around with people like Archon_Wing if a studio like PA Works animated this since it's totally their forte (not that it will ever happen, since their history shows they only do anime originals, novel adaptations and spinoffs of visual novels), if this series would have been better.

I can't even think of a recent work form P.A Works that could compare in animation, especially to that last musical scene. (Not to say their work isn't beautiful.) Plus they'd totally same-face the character designs like the always do with their adaptations. Or worse with what they did to Another's character designs.

~~Pocari_Sweat~~ · 2015-03-21, 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku

For one thing Clannad is a visual novel, this is a manga. Players now have an expectation to have a certain kind of ending. AIR's ending was not well received so this is why they haven't gone down that route again. I would like to see more like them myself though.

Be it the source material, the format of the adaptation or how the adaptation was made, regardless, Key series have consistently left sour impressions on me when it comes to the ending. When your most satisfying ending is the Angel Beats ending, which by the way wasn't even that good and that series wasn't even particularly good as a whole you have a problem. Their constant use of cop-outs, forced endings and destruction of buildup has always been a problem and I'm just glad that Shigatsu had the balls to deliver a bittersweet ending.

Quote:

I can't even think of a recent work form P.A Works that could compare in animation, especially to that last musical scene. (Not to say their work isn't beautiful.) Plus they'd totally same-face the character designs like the always do with their adaptations. Or worse with what they did to Another's character designs.

It was only a personal opinion though I do concede recent PA Works show do have sameface syndrome (a common complaint by me as well) though I do think you are underrating their animation. They are pretty consistent, which A-1 Pictures is not. Go look at series like Sword Art Online and Aldonoah Zero and you'll see that outside of action scenes, A-1 uses a lot of obnoxious budget saving technques. In Shigatsu, half of the musical concerts weren't even animated but stillframes and during the comedy scenes there was a lot of chibi deformed animation which looked majorly cheap.

Then compare them to say Bones, Production IG or Sunrise and I can see a significant difference in animation quality (frames) both during sakuga required scenes and the more "calmer" scenes. In summary, Shigatsu by A1 looked great half the time, and total shit the other half. It was inconsistent.

I only said PAW in Shigatsu case because it's totally within the forte and genre that PAW would operate in, and would look even more gorgeous than it already does with far less obnoxious budget saving techniques. Of course, the tonal whiplash in comedy and the content of the manga may or may not have changed and we'll never know.

karice67 · 2015-03-21, 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

In Shigatsu, half of the musical concerts weren't even animated but stillframes and during the comedy scenes there was a lot of chibi deformed animation which looked majorly cheap.

To be fair to A1 Pictures, I can't think of ANY production company that would be able to spare the resources to produce what you seem to have wanted to see for a TV series about music.

Here's what they did for the performance scenes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyouray

For people interested in the technique : there's the director interview in a short program titled imagine-nation http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/engli...3_archive.html

---

He explains how they animate the musical performances. To keep it short the staff hired musicians as model perfomers. The animation team analyze and do rough drafts based on these live performances, this isn't rotoscoping. There's a huge amount of work. They (brilliantly) used CG for the piano.
The staff is rather young but the director seems competent & according to the producer Yuuichi Fukushima, around half of animation directors are women.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadratic

Thanks for the link.
They say a typical scene takes ~10 sketches vs a single character playing a violin scene taking ~200 sketches! It makes sense they'll try to cut as many corners as possible (eg. the unimportant musicians).

Even Nodame Cantabile's perfomance scenes were not animated half as well as what A1P accomplished for the key scenes in KimiUso. That's actually the main reason the Nodame anime falls behind the manga and the drama for me.

=====

p.s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku

I don't really see knowing Kaori's disease a major issue for me. Is it really that much of an issue for some people? Is it because it takes out that realm of realism?

There are actually a LOT of motor neuron diseases, so it's difficult to be certain, but I think that the disease Kawori had might be MEMSA: Myoclonic epilepsy myopathy sensory ataxia.

Symptoms:

TL;DR…

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

~~Pocari_Sweat~~ · 2015-03-21, 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by karice67

Snip

I assume you meant A-1 Pictures.

I disagree. MAPPA did an amazing job on the animation front for Sakamichi no Appollon. Same for Madhouse with Nana. Heck, even Kyoto Animation did an fantastic job for K-on regardless of what one actually thought of the show.

I do agree however that some of the Nodame musical scenes were not very good a lot of the time as they used jarring CG.

cyth · 2015-03-21, 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Let me be clear here. I get the point about consumer-driven romance here. However, let me turn this around. What's the bigger problem here that is pervasive in storytelling. To use the sick girl trope to milk emotional appeal, or the fact that men are rarely ever used to the same effect? Furthermore, what exactly bothers you about it? That it's emotionally manipulative? You say that it promotes certain KINDS of female stereotypes, but I really don't understand what female stereotype Kaori is. A recent series that had a sick girl story is Moshidora. That character was much closer to something very prototypical than Kaori in my point of view and someone who really had NO DEVELOPMENT whatsoever.

What bothers me is that the sick girl trope basically is the entirety of her emotional development and that such a character is the central component to the story. They could have done so much more with her but just kind of left her there. Moshidora's played a specific role and wasn't central to anything. She was there more like a guidance counselor if I recall correctly.

That the show is emotionally manipulative you just kind of have to take for granted, I didn't have to make peace with that. But even with all the baiting I just couldn't bring myself to care about Kaori. Over half a show in and all we really knew about her was that she was sick and that she played the role of Kousei's surrogate mother. Tsubaki and even Nagi got more development. At least Nagi's was done over a short arc and not just infodumped into the last episode.

karice67 · 2015-03-21, 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

I assume you meant A-1 Pictures.

I disagree. MAPPA did an amazing job on the animation front for Sakamichi no Appollon. Same for Madhouse with Nana. Heck, even Kyoto Animation did an fantastic job for K-on regardless of what one actually thought of the show.

Thanks, but already caught that.

I haven't seen all of NANA, nor have I seen K-ON. But I think that far more time is spent on musical performances in KimiUso than in Apollon.

The style of performance is also very different - I had a quick look at K-ON S1 episode 13, and you're seriously comparing the performance scenes with KimiUso's...? Even though I do regard KyoAni as having the highest standard for overall character animation, okay...

Perhaps A1-Pictures could have put less effort into the performance scenes, and thus more effort into other scenes. But they chose what they wanted to focus on, so if you think they should have had more balance, so be it.

Haak · 2015-03-21, 07:08

All this discussion on the "sick girl" trope reminds me of that scene in Welcome to the NHK where the hikkikimori protagonist and his otaku friend are in a cafe trying to imagine the ultimate moe heroine and one of them establishes that she must have a terminal illness.

It's true that terminal illnesses are played up to press emotional buttons by almost always tacking them on to a young girl (and it's also true that Key is particularly guilty of it), but I also think it's a trope just like any other and can be used effectively.

As to whether it has been done so here I suppose is up to debate, but I think it has been. True, they never establish what Kaori's illness actual is and that definitely doesn't work in it's favour, but otherwise I thought it was well done for several reasons:

1) Kaori doesn't fit the typical "sickness moe girl" mould personality wise. From what I've seen sickness moe girls have a tendency of being meek and innocent to further emphasise their helplessness and appeal to the protagonists/viewers base desire of wanting to protect her. Here it's different in that Kaori is strong willed on her own account and doesn't really need much protection because she knows how to find it herself. The one moment where she does express a desire to be protected ("Please don't leave me alone") is used as analogous to the main character's own desire for the same thing.

2) It doesn't feel like her illness is some tacked on "character trait". Kaori's illness is pretty integral to her character. The last episode makes it explicit just how much it influenced her and how different she would've been if she were healthy, but the hints were always there throughout the show. Kaori always struck me as someone who was trying to live life to the fullest and i don't think the show was particularly subtle about it (remember that dragonfly scene?). The fact that Kaori was always after Arima to such an extent was a surprise but that's the only part I wouldn't have guessed and I definitely don't consider that tacked on. It actually puts a lot of her actions during the first few episodes of the show in a different light, such as how they first met and Kaori's tearful speech to Arima on why she needs him to be her accompanist for her competition.

3) The story gives enough for her POV to make her feel like a character in her own right rather than a device for the main character (Monologues ftw!). As such i never thought Kaori was there just to be Saki version 2 for Arima. I do remember one scene where, after Arima had successfully overcomes his trauma due to his mother, Hiroko hints that Kaori needs to die in order for Arima to grow further. That was just flat out callous and stupid to be honest. But that was just a minor blip to me and more linked to the shows' warped perspective on Arima's trauma than anything else. It also reared it's ugly head for one final time in the last two episodes when Hiroko forced Arima to play for the competition but again that was just a minor blip for me.

As for the opinion that Kaori's illness was too integral to her character, I don't really see what the problem is with it defining her character to such an extent. Terminal illnesses can end up defining your life, especially if you're young and haven't had as many life experiences. I think the story could've done better to show Kaori's love for the violin, but I say that as someone that has absolutely no understanding of music and the appreciation of it so I probably missed a load of hints during her performances. It also could've expanded on Kaori's relationship with her parents and how they dealt her her illness as a family but this is the same show where Arima's father is inexplicably absent so it wouldn't be fair to pin that just on her character.

And yeah, there's no need to bring sexism into it I think. Reckoner kept doing that in the NagiAsu thread and it pissed me off to no end. XP

~~Pocari_Sweat~~ · 2015-03-21, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

And yeah, there's no need to bring sexism into it I think. Reckoner kept doing that in the NagiAsu thread and it pissed me off to no end. XP

Don't tell me you're still butthurt over that

In all seriousness... I have no idea why people are bringing up sexism for this anime. The only thing that's possibly sexist is Tsubaki absolutely failing the Bechdel Test. But I'm reluctant to call that sexist as MOST forms of entertainment fail it anyway.

Haak · 2015-03-21, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Don't tell me you're still butthurt over that

I still take Rectogesic for the pain. XP

And besides, I don't want to hear that from you of all people.

Reckoner · 2015-03-21, 12:17

Cyth, I'm not sure how you can say that we knew nothing about her. While her sickness is her primary motivation for all her actions in the story, as revealed in the last episode, it wasn't what defined her. You can't live life to its fullest without having something to pursue. With Kaori it was her artistic inspirations and love for another person that pulled her to do what she did once she knew she didn't have enough time. The last episode reveal of the "backstory" was one of the least surprising things ever because we pretty much already knew the gist of it. It was pretty clear all along she knew Kousei and considered him more than just "Friend A." It was also pretty clear all along that she had an artistic vision (Though we later find out it was inspired by Kousei). Most importantly, we also knew pretty early on there was some life debilitating condition that drove her emotionally into such a corner that she broke down pleading with Kousei to be her accompanist in that one episode.

I understand her type of story is a bit prototypical, and could potentially leave a bad taste if you see her as nothing but a tool of development for Kousei... But in my mind that's not exactly what happened here because Kaori actively influenced Kousei. She displayed her own agency, time and time again in the story. I brought up the Moshidora example earlier because that's an example of a character to me that didn't really have much development or personality, yet she was utilized for an emotional climax in the end nonetheless (That sounds like a pretty central plot development to me you know). She literally was there to give the main character development. Here, I kind of really understood that Kaori and Kousei made a good pair, but it was simply a romance between two people, two artists that wasn't meant to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

And yeah, there's no need to bring sexism into it I think. Reckoner kept doing that in the NagiAsu thread and it pissed me off to no end. XP

I repent.

Series was still disappointing tho.

cyth · 2015-03-21, 14:08

We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't have the energy for picking apart almost your every sentence and the back and forth. Besides, I don't hate the show, it's just the central components of it I feel are very weak. As thus the show stands on very weak foundation. But props to the director and A-1 for making it work nonetheless. Besides I've written everything I wanted to write about the show in my blog (link in sig) and I don't have the energy to repeat all again here.

It's been a good one, folks!

kir44n · 2015-03-21, 14:57

Looking over your blog post, I can't help but feel that you fundamentally did not understand some of the central themes of the show. Indeed, it seems that your interpretation has been tainted by some outside factors (either personal, political or otherwise). You focus on the parental abuse, not noting that it was Hiroko that started him on the Piano in the first place, not his mother. You focus potential danger in the "abusive" kaori in comparison to the mother, never mind the difference in severity nor the difference in station (between equals vs between mother & child).

The show also demonstrated that the abuse was not good. He lied about where his bruises came from AND began to wear long sleeve clothing to hid it, because of the criticism his mother would face for it coming to light. Even in japan, abuse of a child enough to bruise is not condoned, and how you came to believe this to be true I cannot comprehend with how it was portrayed.

Ultimately, it appears that your evaluation of the show has been damaged by severe outside bias that only you will be able to correct. It also appears that you do not appreciate people that don't share this opinion, with your tweets noting almost no negative responses to the show on reddit. For why few seem to share your opinions, I would look inwards, rather than the perceived critical failures in others.

~~viperdk1~~ · 2015-03-24, 15:10

Finally managed to catch the last episode...long story short, I'm "happy" with this ending (as you can be with a bittersweet ending), and the series as a whole. A series with closure, yet at the same time, the journey leading to this managed to tug the heartstrings and leave me giggling in equal measure (someone made a Clannad comparison a few posts ago and I'm in total agreement for that).

Absolutely heartbroken to see Kaori go, but the thing that surprised me most was despite seeming so self-assured throughout the entire series, in reality she was no less insecure (in particular relating to getting close to Kousei) than Kousei was himself.

Beautifully done from start to finish, and one of my favourite anime in a long while. No, it wasn't perfect (nothing ever is), but it was an emotional rollercoaster I won't forget in a hurry.

2015-03-20, 20:52	Link #902
kir44n #1 Delinquent Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Wash. D.C. Age: 38	The phrase "Shoved down the throat" runs counter to the amount of material that connects so much after the revelation of the letter. Even the paper the letter itself was written on was set up well in advance of its use. The series in it's entirety was written to have the "big reveal" set in the letter. Hell, the name of the series itself doesn't even fit until it's use in the letter. Additionally, she does not fit the "sick girl" mold to the T either. At her lowest point, she suggested double suicide. She played it off quickly, but the seflishness that had been driving her behavior shows its darkest side in that moment. She was a fleshed out character, with a core motivation. And everything she does in the show can be seen as stemming from her motivation, and what she wants and how it conflicts within her. Things can be subtle, and just because they are not readily apparent does not automatically mean they fit some "cliche" or "trope" based hole. A hexadecagon might look like a circle if you're not paying attention, but at the end of the day its not a circle. __________________ We are here to educate the masses! Lelouch Lives! Join us at http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=144 We used to be Relevant!!

2015-03-20, 22:14	Link #905
bbee Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: .nl	If Kaori was a stereotype, she was certainly not any "female" stereotype I've ever come across. The character of a "dying girl" is not so much a stereotype but an archetype. Being mortally ill is the kind of thing that tends to define a person, especially if it's from childhood. Deriding that is like saying that the Queen of England would just be somebody's grandmother if she wasn't the Queen. Entirely true and completely beside the point. I take issue with the aforementioned agency the letter gives to Kaori. I don't believe it sits well with the bittersweet, contemplative nature of the show. Kaori was the warm spring breeze, the love at first sight, the accidental encounter - the free spirit, bound and driven only by her own fading. The ruminative, manipulative agency revealed in the letter tarnishes her character. There were hints, of course - the accidental "friend A" encounters while "waiting for Watari" after school. These moments are, to me, much more enjoyable viewed as motivated by blossoming love and the impetus of death. To think that Kaori was, at those times, plotting to enter some imaginary inner circle is not very appealing. It also devalues Arima's growth. Having Kaori be something he discovered, tangential to his world, related but not enclosed - his own making rather than his mother's - is extremely valuable to his development. No purpose is served by this big reveal. Why couldn't the lie in April have been metaphoric rather than literal? The show has other issues - chief among which is the repetitiveness of the musical themes. This idea of an emotional journey while performing on stage is interesting, and it plays rather well - at least, the first dozen or so times. Aftet that, it does drag. Did anyone count how many times "reach her" was said during a musical piece? The cliche and trope I would have chosen to highlight is the lack of communication - the emotionally dumbfounded, seemingly blind to romantic signals, averbal male protagonist that is plaguing anime. Yet he is also inexplicably insigtful, wordy and poetic in his inner monologue. How could such a poet and musical prodigy not see through Kaori's lie, when we all could? Was anyone else reminded of Kyon? That being said, I am a sucker for resounding inner monologue, romance, tragedy and let's face it - who doesn't like classical music? The show is quite easily the best of the season, and when taken in small doses, it plucks the heartstrings in tune with the romance. One movement and a finale shy of a masterpiece - 7/10. __________________

2015-03-21, 01:10	Link #907
creb Hiding Under Your Bed Join Date: May 2008	I'm just glad she actually died. There were so many flags that I was starting to think we'd done a lap and she was actually going to survive the show. As for where it falls in the pantheon of similar shows throughout the history of NoitaminA...well, I probably will only remember it for the show that was willing to actually kill one half of the love interest. It was fairly average and forgettable beyond that will they/won't they death angle. __________________ http://myanimelist.net/animelist/creb http://myanimelist.net/mangalist/creb It feels like years since they've been updated, btw. Also, cake.

2015-03-21, 07:08	Link #914
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	All this discussion on the "sick girl" trope reminds me of that scene in Welcome to the NHK where the hikkikimori protagonist and his otaku friend are in a cafe trying to imagine the ultimate moe heroine and one of them establishes that she must have a terminal illness. It's true that terminal illnesses are played up to press emotional buttons by almost always tacking them on to a young girl (and it's also true that Key is particularly guilty of it), but I also think it's a trope just like any other and can be used effectively. As to whether it has been done so here I suppose is up to debate, but I think it has been. True, they never establish what Kaori's illness actual is and that definitely doesn't work in it's favour, but otherwise I thought it was well done for several reasons: 1) Kaori doesn't fit the typical "sickness moe girl" mould personality wise. From what I've seen sickness moe girls have a tendency of being meek and innocent to further emphasise their helplessness and appeal to the protagonists/viewers base desire of wanting to protect her. Here it's different in that Kaori is strong willed on her own account and doesn't really need much protection because she knows how to find it herself. The one moment where she does express a desire to be protected ("Please don't leave me alone") is used as analogous to the main character's own desire for the same thing. 2) It doesn't feel like her illness is some tacked on "character trait". Kaori's illness is pretty integral to her character. The last episode makes it explicit just how much it influenced her and how different she would've been if she were healthy, but the hints were always there throughout the show. Kaori always struck me as someone who was trying to live life to the fullest and i don't think the show was particularly subtle about it (remember that dragonfly scene?). The fact that Kaori was always after Arima to such an extent was a surprise but that's the only part I wouldn't have guessed and I definitely don't consider that tacked on. It actually puts a lot of her actions during the first few episodes of the show in a different light, such as how they first met and Kaori's tearful speech to Arima on why she needs him to be her accompanist for her competition. 3) The story gives enough for her POV to make her feel like a character in her own right rather than a device for the main character (Monologues ftw!). As such i never thought Kaori was there just to be Saki version 2 for Arima. I do remember one scene where, after Arima had successfully overcomes his trauma due to his mother, Hiroko hints that Kaori needs to die in order for Arima to grow further. That was just flat out callous and stupid to be honest. But that was just a minor blip to me and more linked to the shows' warped perspective on Arima's trauma than anything else. It also reared it's ugly head for one final time in the last two episodes when Hiroko forced Arima to play for the competition but again that was just a minor blip for me. As for the opinion that Kaori's illness was too integral to her character, I don't really see what the problem is with it defining her character to such an extent. Terminal illnesses can end up defining your life, especially if you're young and haven't had as many life experiences. I think the story could've done better to show Kaori's love for the violin, but I say that as someone that has absolutely no understanding of music and the appreciation of it so I probably missed a load of hints during her performances. It also could've expanded on Kaori's relationship with her parents and how they dealt her her illness as a family but this is the same show where Arima's father is inexplicably absent so it wouldn't be fair to pin that just on her character. And yeah, there's no need to bring sexism into it I think. Reckoner kept doing that in the NagiAsu thread and it pissed me off to no end. XP __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2015-03-21, 14:57	Link #919
kir44n #1 Delinquent Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Wash. D.C. Age: 38	Looking over your blog post, I can't help but feel that you fundamentally did not understand some of the central themes of the show. Indeed, it seems that your interpretation has been tainted by some outside factors (either personal, political or otherwise). You focus on the parental abuse, not noting that it was Hiroko that started him on the Piano in the first place, not his mother. You focus potential danger in the "abusive" kaori in comparison to the mother, never mind the difference in severity nor the difference in station (between equals vs between mother & child). The show also demonstrated that the abuse was not good. He lied about where his bruises came from AND began to wear long sleeve clothing to hid it, because of the criticism his mother would face for it coming to light. Even in japan, abuse of a child enough to bruise is not condoned, and how you came to believe this to be true I cannot comprehend with how it was portrayed. Ultimately, it appears that your evaluation of the show has been damaged by severe outside bias that only you will be able to correct. It also appears that you do not appreciate people that don't share this opinion, with your tweets noting almost no negative responses to the show on reddit. For why few seem to share your opinions, I would look inwards, rather than the perceived critical failures in others. __________________ We are here to educate the masses! Lelouch Lives! Join us at http://forums.animesuki.com/group.php?groupid=144 We used to be Relevant!!

2015-03-20, 21:04	Link #903
RDNexus Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Portugal Age: 36	As it's being mentioned here, and I think I believe so as well, this story (no matter if it's akin to a K-Drama) plays itself by subtleties made by the author on purpose while giving us heartaches alongside a few funny moments to ease the feels. That means that people must be capable of reading between the lines and try to predict the outcomes, while (in this case) trying to avoid getting a emotional breakdown because you could easily predict from early on that Kaori was set to die later on, it just wasn't confirming it straight in the face. The fact that her time to shine was mostly during the 1st half was made on purpose so as to show us later on the harsh truth behind her, her own backstory and how it affects everyone is of great importance to her characterization. The letter coming right at the end was actually well-played because earlier on would have dispelled a few things regarding the story, it was the last thread that connected all the dots. A few characters had direct characterization while others were being thrown to us bit by bit, we had to use our heads a little (and harden our hearts). Now, it's up to each person to decide, depending on their ideals and viewpoints, if everything was actually played right or not...

2015-03-21, 14:08	Link #918
cyth Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Age: 38	We'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't have the energy for picking apart almost your every sentence and the back and forth. Besides, I don't hate the show, it's just the central components of it I feel are very weak. As thus the show stands on very weak foundation. But props to the director and A-1 for making it work nonetheless. Besides I've written everything I wanted to write about the show in my blog (link in sig) and I don't have the energy to repeat all again here. It's been a good one, folks!

2015-03-24, 15:10	Link #920
~~viperdk1~~ The Colour of Magic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: England Age: 32	Finally managed to catch the last episode...long story short, I'm "happy" with this ending (as you can be with a bittersweet ending), and the series as a whole. A series with closure, yet at the same time, the journey leading to this managed to tug the heartstrings and leave me giggling in equal measure (someone made a Clannad comparison a few posts ago and I'm in total agreement for that). Absolutely heartbroken to see Kaori go, but the thing that surprised me most was despite seeming so self-assured throughout the entire series, in reality she was no less insecure (in particular relating to getting close to Kousei) than Kousei was himself. Beautifully done from start to finish, and one of my favourite anime in a long while. No, it wasn't perfect (nothing ever is), but it was an emotional rollercoaster I won't forget in a hurry.