strongest of whitebeard's crew?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by holypanl

But we haven't seen all the Corps commanders yet, right? Ace, Marco, and two more are missing, right? I imagine they're probably really strong, too. Whitebeard has a fleet, with each ship captained by a corps commander. The Shichibukai and Admirals are charging into something they can't handle...

You forgot Jozu, the 3rd division commander... he was the big guy seen along side Marco when Shanks came to visit...

Whitebeard also has a 4th division, but the commander was killed by blackbeard... right now, it's unknown if the 4th commander has been replaced, and it's a complete unknown if their are more than 4 divisions... Though i'd wager to guess that Marco and Jozu are the only commanders left with Ace currently out of the picture... if the 4th was replaced and if their were other commanders, then i would have expected them to have been shown along with Marco and Jozu... a meeting with the redhair pirats seems like something all the commanders would want to be their for.

As for the strongest, i'd go with Marco... i mean, the second strongest is pretty much Whitebeard's first mate (even though he uses that division system of command)... and i have an easy time picturing Marco as Whitebeard's firstmate and not so much Ace; Ace seems like he would be a relatively newer member of the crew and the youngest out of the commanders... afterall i think Ace has only been out at sea for like 3 years

[marvelB]

One Piece Yellow reveals that Whitebeard has a total of 16 divisions, along with their own commanders (the total number of men in the crew is 1,600). That means there's 12 other people in the crew who may very well be as strong, possibly even stronger than Ace. Heck, even Sachi, the commander that Blackbeard killed, may have been stronger than Luffy's brother....



But yeah, Marco and Jozu still strike me as being among the strongest in the crew. But again, we still don't know how powerful these other 12 guys are....

[MihawkXGP]

I think i'm changing my view.....I have many reasons to think that Marco is perhaps the strongest of the division commanders. he just seems like that type of character who looks really laid back...but will kick ass. it'll be interesting too see just how strong the commaders are...seeing as they're going up against the 3 Admirals (and basically all of Marine HQ)+ Shichbuckai....they're gonna have to be tough if they're too come out of this victorious.

I'm just lookin forward too seeing Marco in action. He could potentially be a new favourite character of mine

[Hisoka??]

actually I suspect the strongest member would be people other than the division commanders.

It's likely that white beard would have kept his strongest members with him + those of his original crew (who should also be very strong).

I guess it would be similar to how in the marines there are the various vice amirals who control their own fleets ("division commmanders"), but then the admirals like ao kiji don't have their own fleets per se and are with the HQ.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by marvelB

One Piece Yellow reveals that Whitebeard has a total of 16 divisions, along with their own commanders (the total number of men in the crew is 1,600). That means there's 12 other people in the crew who may very well be as strong, possibly even stronger than Ace. Heck, even Sachi, the commander that Blackbeard killed, may have been stronger than Luffy's brother....



But yeah, Marco and Jozu still strike me as being among the strongest in the crew. But again, we still don't know how powerful these other 12 guys are....

What? There are 12 other people in the crew that are stronger, or could be stronger than Ace? Marco maybe, but that's it (and of course Whitebeard, but that goes without saying).

Everywhere Ace goes people recognize him. He's been called names like "legend" and "infamous pirate." And you guys think there could be twelve other people in Whitebeard's crew like that? Not likely. Those division numbers quite obviously aren't just for show, they pretty much mark the person according to their strength. Otherwise there would be no point in having numbers.

There's a very good reason why we never saw the fight between Blackbeard and Satchi, it's because it wasn't important (And quite frankly it probably didn't last very long). That to me plainly says that everyone below jozu is strong, but doesn't have "big league" strength, and are pretty much obsolete. I highly doubt Oda is going to have an in depth focus on all sixteen divisions of Whitebeard's crew, that's why he introduced the three so we'll know who the big shots are when the time comes.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

What? There are 12 other people in the crew that are stronger, or could be stronger than Ace? Marco maybe, but that's it (and of course Whitebeard, but that goes without saying).

We don't know anything at all about the other division commanders so you can't make such statements just yet.

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Everywhere Ace goes people recognize him. He's been called names like "legend" and "infamous pirate." And you guys think there could be twelve other people in Whitebeard's crew like that? Not likely. Those division numbers quite obviously aren't just for show, they pretty much mark the person according to their strength. Otherwise there would be no point in having numbers.

This is only your speculation. It is certainly possible that Whitebeard arbitrarily assigned division commanders to each fleet and just gave them numbers from there on so that his massive crew can have some sort of structure. The numbers don't necessarily have to relate to a hierarchal system of power (something many people believe).

Originally Posted by cheese4u

There's a very good reason why we never saw the fight between Blackbeard and Satchi, it's because it wasn't important (And quite frankly it probably didn't last very long). That to me plainly says that everyone below jozu is strong, but doesn't have "big league" strength, and are pretty much obsolete. I highly doubt Oda is going to have an in depth focus on all sixteen divisions of Whitebeard's crew, that's why he introduced the three so we'll know who the big shots are when the time comes.

I'm sorry, but your in-bold text just sounds ridiculous. Do you even realize what you're saying? Just think about it. If all the division commanders below Jozu did not have formidable strength, thereby making them obsolete as you say, why would the World Government find it necessary to summon all 7 warlords and the whole marines force to stop Whitebeard and his crew? From what you've said, you're basically insinuating that Whitebeard, Marco, and Jozu alone are enough to take on the marines and the shichibukai, which would make no sense at all. If the World Government has gone through the trouble of assembling two world powers to combat Whitebeard and his forces, it would be reasonable to suggest that the other 12 division commanders are at least on par with the vice admirals in terms of strength. Just because we haven't seen (or been introduced) to the other 12 division commanders, does not mean that they are not going to have "big league" strength as you put it.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

We don't know anything at all about the other division commanders so you can't make such statements just yet.

Exactly, if this wasn't the case I wouldn't have said anything at all. The fact of the matter is we don't know anything about the other commanders yet. But to say that there could be twelve other people in Whitebeard's crew stronger than Ace seems absurd. This is Luffy's older brother we're talking about here, he's a "D" for crying out loud.

This is only your speculation. It is certainly possible that Whitebeard arbitrarily assigned division commanders to each fleet and just gave them numbers from there on so that his massive crew can have some sort of structure. The numbers don't necessarily have to relate to a hierarchal system of power (something many people believe).

There's a reason why many people believe it, because it makes sense (and yes I'm aware that One Piece is a show that doesn't neccessarily follow common sense). But think about it, if the numbers have no meaning, then why were the characters who have the numbers 1-4 introduced first, as opposed to them just having random numbers. Why any numbers at all if they don't indicate their strength? Giving numbers for "structure" is a good theory in a realistic sense, but it doesn't make good story sense (especially this story in particular).

I'm sorry, but your in-bold text just sounds ridiculous. Do you even realize what you're saying? Just think about it. If all the division commanders below Jozu did not have formidable strength, thereby making them obsolete as you say, why would the World Government find it necessary to summon all 7 warlords and the whole marines force to stop Whitebeard and his crew? From what you've said, you're basically insinuating that Whitebeard, Marco, and Jozu alone are enough to take on the marines and the shichibukai, which would make no sense at all. If the World Government has gone through the trouble of assembling two world powers to combat Whitebeard and his forces, it would be reasonable to suggest that the other 12 division commanders are at least on par with the vice admirals in terms of strength. Just because we haven't seen (or been introduced) to the other 12 division commanders, does not mean that they are not going to have "big league" strength as you put it.

Ok, when I used the terms "obsolete" and "big league" I didn't mean to insinuate that the other commanders were weak (though admittedly through my choice of words that would be an easy assumption to make). As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that all of the division commanders are at least stronger than Luffy. In regards to their strength we won't know anything about that until the time comes. However, everything up until this point has followed suit as far as ranking and numbers are concerned.

Some examples:

1. Baroque works numbering system (agents gets stronger the lower the number)

2. Enel's percentage system (the lower the percentage, the stronger the guy)

3. cipher pol (agencies get stronger the higher the number , i. e. cp9 stronger than cp8)

...and let's not forget the marine ranks as well as pirate bounties.

I'm not saying things are absolutely going to go this way, but this has been the formula for what's been happening thus far, to think otherwise would be what's truly ridiculous.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Ok, when I used the terms "obsolete" and "big league" I didn't mean to insinuate that the other commanders were weak (though admittedly through my choice of words that would be an easy assumption to make). As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that all of the division commanders are at least stronger than Luffy. In regards to their strength we won't know anything about that until the time comes. However, everything up until this point has followed suit as far as ranking and numbers are concerned.

Some examples:

1. Baroque works numbering system (agents gets stronger the lower the number)

2. Enel's percentage system (the lower the percentage, the stronger the guy)

3. cipher pol (agencies get stronger the higher the number , i. e. cp9 stronger than cp8)

...and let's not forget the marine ranks as well as pirate bounties.

I'm not saying things are absolutely going to go this way, but this has been the formula for what's been happening thus far, to think otherwise would be what's truly ridiculous.

Actually, about that... Oda's proven a few times that rank doesn't equal strength. For example, as far as Baroque Works is concerned, Crocodile clearly tells Mr. 3 that Mr. 4 outranks him in terms of power. As far as Cipher Pol goes, we've never exactly had any confirmation about CP1-8's strength. We just know that they're all intelligence agents for the government. And remember, CP9 doesn't exist as far as the outside world is concerned....


Now, about the Marines: Guys like Sentoumaru prove that there can be powerful marines who DON'T have a military rank. Also, keep in mind that one of the vice-admirals, Tsuru, has such a high rank because she's a brilliant tactician. So again, status does NOT always equal physical might.



Furthermore, Shank's conversation with Whitebeard implies that Ace, though powerful, is still a bit inexperienced. He obviously didn't know enough about Blackbeard before taking him on, and suffered the consequences because of that. Honestly, I'd say he's got such a high position in Whitebeard's crew only because he's a Logia DF user. Also note that he was out to sea for only three years. Depending on how long the rest of the commanders were part of Whitebeard's crew, they probably have MUCH more experience than Ace (note that I didn't say they would be stronger than him, just more experienced). The fact that Marco and Jozu are familiar with Haki show that they've been around the block more than once, and are most likely quite capable of taking on Logias without too much trouble, like Rayleigh did with Kizaru. Now imagine if the other 12 commanders had that kind of experience. It would be no wonder the government fears Whitebeard's crew so much....



...So yeah, I highly doubt that the rest of Whitebeard's commanders are cannon fodder.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

There's a reason why many people believe it, because it makes sense (and yes I'm aware that One Piece is a show that doesn't neccessarily follow common sense). But think about it, if the numbers have no meaning, then why were the characters who have the numbers 1-4 introduced first, as opposed to them just having random numbers. Why any numbers at all if they don't indicate their strength? Giving numbers for "structure" is a good theory in a realistic sense, but it doesn't make good story sense (especially this story in particular).

Actually, ranking the members by strength DOESN'T make sense from a practical stand point... it's actually one of more annoying gripes with the espada in bleach.

Something i apparently said in this thread like a year ago...

One could argue that we may not be able to do so on the idea is that we don't know if the numbered divsions are just numbered like that to point out which is the oldest division or if they are numbered by strength... Does Whitebeard just take his strongest members and randomly place them in the head of divisions whereever there's a vacancy, or does he put them in order of strongest to weakest?

both could be argued... for the sake of the readers, it's simipiler to just think the division leaders are order from strongest to weakest, thus Marco is the strongest... However, it would actually be more pratical to not do that and instead just place strong crew members wherever there's a vancacy... For instance, lets say, whitebeard only has 4 divisions... now if Ace was killed by Blackbeard, the 2nd seat is vacant... If the leaders are ordered from strongest to weakest, than the 3rd leader will need to become the new 2nd, the 4th leader will need to become the new 3rd leader, and the 5th leader will need to be promoted to the 4th division; that's a lot of seat changes to fill in one spot... not to mention, this can cause troubles since now the former 3rd and 4th leader will be leading a crew members they never lead before and haven't worked AS closely with; which could cause some problems... in the alternative method, the 3rd and 4th leaders stay where they are and lead the same poeple they always lead, and the 17th strongest member is promoted to lead the 2nd division... it's less complicated and more efficant...

One mehtod makes things easier for the readers, and the other method is more practical and believable. grant it, considering this is a shonen series, i'm inclined to think Oda would go with the strength method for the divisions... it is afterall what he did for Baroque works agents... though granted, the agents didn't have the responcibility of leading poeple as they just operated in pairs.

Frankly i always found it annoying that such systems of strength are used... because it causes so many problems when a member in the middle gets taken out and need to be replaced...

Bleach actually uses the more practical system with the gotei 13, with only the first division being a indicator of strength. The rest are ordered randomly, and it still works out... readers don't hav a clear idea of how they all rank up in terms of strength, but when it comes down to it, they don't need to know

Originally Posted by marvelB

Now, about the Marines: Guys like Sentoumaru prove that there can be powerful marines who DON'T have a military rank. Also, keep in mind that one of the vice-admirals, Tsuru, has such a high rank because she's a brilliant tactician. So again, status does NOT always equal physical might.
.

Well technically you shouldn't be so quick to rite off old Tsuru... you never know...

however, the point still remains...
-Smoker, his rank has been pointed out time and again not to be refelctive of how strong he is
-Commodore Purin... just two ranks away from vice admiral and he got wiped out in an instant by Arlong's lackeys
-Captain Nazumi... guy who was conspiring with Arlong... he wasn't worth crap compared to other captains
-Captain morgan aswell seems much weaker than other captains.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Actually, about that... Oda's proven a few times that rank doesn't equal strength. For example, as far as Baroque Works is concerned, Crocodile clearly tells Mr. 3 that Mr. 4 outranks him in terms of power. As far as Cipher Pol goes, we've never exactly had any confirmation about CP1-8's strength. We just know that they're all intelligence agents for the government. And remember, CP9 doesn't exist as far as the outside world is concerned....

I don't recall saying rank equals strength. What I'm trying to say is that ranking so far has been mostly synonymous with strength. What you mentioned with the Baroque works example is an exception (every rule has one). If I were to go by your rationale, then I could say that Mr. 11 could kick Mr. 1's ass because Crocodile never said which one was stronger. And as for Cipher Pol, Sanji alone blew through cp6 and cp7, I think that speaks for itself (oh and btw, he had a much harder time with cp7 than he did with cp6, which further supports my theory that cp9 is the strongest)

Now, about the Marines: Guys like Sentoumaru prove that there can be powerful marines who DON'T have a military rank. Also, keep in mind that one of the vice-admirals, Tsuru, has such a high rank because she's a brilliant tactician. So again, status does NOT always equal physical might.

Once again , I never said that people outside of the ranking system were not strong. And I never said status always equals physical might. And once again, you listed exceptions to the rules, of which you will always find at least one. And besides all that, people outside of the ranking system plays no part in what I was trying to say, because I was only referring to the people within it. And I may have missed it, but I don't recall it ever being said Tsuru doesn't have physical strength.

Furthermore, Shank's conversation with Whitebeard implies that Ace, though powerful, is still a bit inexperienced. He obviously didn't know enough about Blackbeard before taking him on, and suffered the consequences because of that. Honestly, I'd say he's got such a high position in Whitebeard's crew only because he's a Logia DF user. Also note that he was out to sea for only three years. Depending on how long the rest of the commanders were part of Whitebeard's crew, they probably have MUCH more experience than Ace (note that I didn't say they would be stronger than him, just more experienced). The fact that Marco and Jozu are familiar with Haki show that they've been around the block more than once, and are most likely quite capable of taking on Logias without too much trouble, like Rayleigh did with Kizaru. Now imagine if the other 12 commanders had that kind of experience. It would be no wonder the government fears Whitebeard's crew so much....

Hello? Ace may have went to kill Blackbeard but I recall that a certain "World's strongest Man" was the one who sent him. If your saying Ace is inexperienced for going to fight Blackbeard, then your also calling Whitebeard inexperienced because he was the one who gave him the ok to go. And btw Shanks called him young not inexperienced, and even acknowledged that Ace was strong.

As for his logia abilities, Ace impressed even Blackbeard with his physical strength and toughness for being able to take a punch to his real body which, according to Blackbeard, most logia's have a hard time doing. So Ace is clearly more than just his logia ability.

And yes, Marco and Jozu are in fact familiar with Haki, but what exactly makes you think Ace isn't? In your statement you have made Ace into this inexperienced kid trying to catch up to the other commanders when nothing at all seems to point to that. Ace has been referred to as a "legend," not inexperienced, a "legend." A legend is not a number fifteen or sixteen in strength in a crew, it would make much more sense if he was the top three along with Marco and Whitebeard. Why on earth would Oda make Luffy's brother into this mediocre category that your trying to put him in. Everything that's been said about Ace in terms of strength has been overwhelmingly positive.

Oh and I recall you saying earlier that Satchi could be stronger than Ace. Uh hello, Blackbeard killed Satchi, why would Whitebeard send someone weaker than Satchi to kill Blackbeard.

...So yeah, I highly doubt that the rest of Whitebeard's commanders are cannon fodder.

I never meant to imply that Whitebeard's remaining commander's are weak, I'm just saying that there probably weaker than Ace.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Exactly, if this wasn't the case I wouldn't have said anything at all. The fact of the matter is we don't know anything about the other commanders yet. But to say that there could be twelve other people in Whitebeard's crew stronger than Ace seems absurd. This is Luffy's older brother we're talking about here, he's a "D" for crying out loud.

No one ever said that all 12 people could be stronger than Ace, it's just that some of the other division commanders may in fact be stronger than Ace. Ace being Luffy's older brother and a "D" really has no relevance to your argument.

Originally Posted by cheese4u

There's a reason why many people believe it, because it makes sense (and yes I'm aware that One Piece is a show that doesn't neccessarily follow common sense). But think about it, if the numbers have no meaning, then why were the characters who have the numbers 1-4 introduced first, as opposed to them just having random numbers. Why any numbers at all if they don't indicate their strength? Giving numbers for "structure" is a good theory in a realistic sense, but it doesn't make good story sense (especially this story in particular).

The post from slayerx from a year ago was very well put together, so I don't feel the need to regurgitate what he said. In response to your in-bold text, did you ever think of the possibility that Oda hadn't yet conceived of the designs of the other 12 division commanders or that he hadn't yet finalized their designs at that point? By your logic, if Oda doesn't introduce characters of a particular group at the same time, it means that the ones that preceded them in appearance/introduction will be stronger, which is silly. Take a look at the admirals for example. Aokiji was introduced to us first, so does that mean that he is the strongest out of the three admirals? Absolutely not. How about the vice admirals? Vice Admiral's John Giant, Komir, and Tsuru, were introduced before the 5 vice admirals that were part of the buster call at Enies Lobby. Does this make those 5 vice admirals weaker than the aforementioned 3 vice admirals introduced earlier? No. Let's also not forget Jimbei. He is the last warlord left to be introduced, so would that make him weaker than guys like Kuma or Doflamingo? I think I've provided enough examples as to why earlier introductions are not reliable when it comes to assessing the strengths of characters. What I am trying to say in the end is that we should just wait and see what the other division commanders are like before we assess their strengths in comparison to Ace.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Hello? Ace may have went to kill Blackbeard but I recall that a certain "World's strongest Man" was the one who sent him. If your saying Ace is inexperienced for going to fight Blackbeard, then your also calling Whitebeard inexperienced because he was the one who gave him the ok to go. And btw Shanks called him young not inexperienced, and even acknowledged that Ace was strong.

It wasn't so much because Whitebeard was inexperienced, but more like both Ace AND Whitebeard himself greatly underestimated Teach. Remember, Blackbeard told Ace that he was part of Whitebeard's crew for decades. In other words, he had plenty of time to gain strength for himself in secret. The mere fact that he was the one who gave Shanks his scar already implies that he was already an extremely formidable fighter before stealing the darkness fruit. Shanks was well aware of how dangerous Blackbeard was, but unfortunately Whitebeard was too pissed over his betrayal to realize exactly what he was dealing with. Now one of his best men is set to be executed, and the government is preparing to wipe out his crew in the upcoming war. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole execution bit was a ruse that Blackbeard made up to lure Whitebeard into a trap. After all, he's been shown to be quite crafty....


Oh, and I never said that Shanks called Ace inexperienced. I said that he sort of implies that when he tells Whitebeard that it wasn't the right time for Ace to face off against Teach.

As for his logia abilities, Ace impressed even Blackbeard with his physical strength and toughness for being able to take a punch to his real body which, according to Blackbeard, most logia's have a hard time doing. So Ace is clearly more than just his logia ability.

And yes, Marco and Jozu are in fact familiar with Haki, but what exactly makes you think Ace isn't? In your statement you have made Ace into this inexperienced kid trying to catch up to the other commanders when nothing at all seems to point to that. Ace has been referred to as a "legend," not inexperienced, a "legend." A legend is not a number fifteen or sixteen in strength in a crew, it would make much more sense if he was the top three along with Marco and Whitebeard. Why on earth would Oda make Luffy's brother into this mediocre category that your trying to put him in. Everything that's been said about Ace in terms of strength has been overwhelmingly positive.

Again, I'm not saying Ace is some rank amateur. Of course he's got great fighting skills outside of his Logia abilities (after all, Luffy said he could never beat him in a fight during their training days), but he still doesn't strike me as being the flat-out strongest of Whitebeard's men, since we don't really know much about Marco or Jozu, and nothing about the rest of the commanders. For all we know, any of THOSE guys could have a Logia ability or may even be a Haki master who's been part of the crew for as long as Blackbeard was. If so, that would make them much more experienced and formidable than Ace....


Now as far as Haki goes, I'd say that Ace would be familiar with it as well, but as to whether or not he can use it remains to be seen. He may not be able to use it and instead has his Logia powers and already-exceptional fighting abilities to compensate for it. After all, it's been implied that Haki is not an ability that just anyone can learn (I'd think that Shanks knocking out all of the small fries on Whitebeard's ship should be proof of this)....

Oh and I recall you saying earlier that Satchi could be stronger than Ace. Uh hello, Blackbeard killed Satchi, why would Whitebeard send someone weaker than Satchi to kill Blackbeard.

As I said above, both Ace and Whitebeard underestimated Teach. It's true we don't know how strong Sachi was, but since he was a commander, I highly doubt he was some weakling either. He may have been on par with, or at least close to Ace's level in terms of fighting skills...


Also note that Blackbeard was under Ace's division when he killed Sachi, and Ace was sent to take care of him since it was his responsibility as the commander (he clearly tells Luffy this in Alabasta). If Blackbeard were under another division then it would be THAT division's commander who would be sent to hunt him down. Who knows how any of the other commanders would fare against Teach....

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

No one ever said that all 12 people could be stronger than Ace, it's just that some of the other division commanders may in fact be stronger than Ace. Ace being Luffy's older brother and a "D" really has no relevance to your argument.

You could not have misinterpreted what I said more if you tried (and quite frankly it certainly seems that you are trying). I specifically said that Marvelb said that the 12 other captains could be stronger than Ace. Meaning that I acknowledged that he didn't say they were. But either thought seems absurd to me.

Ace being Luffy's brother bears no relevance to my argument? Since when is the main character's family irrelevant? All I'm saying is that all of the family that Luffy has that we know of were not in some sort of mediocre category. Garp is a world famous marine. Dragon is the world's most wanted criminal. But Ace somehow is the 5-12 strongest in Whitebeard's crew, not bloody likely.

the post from slayerx from a year ago was very well put together, so I don't feel the need to regurgitate what he said. In response to your in-bold text, did you ever think of the possibility that Oda hadn't yet conceived of the designs of the other 12 division commanders or that he hadn't yet finalized their designs at that point? By your logic, if Oda doesn't introduce characters of a particular group at the same time, it means that the ones that preceded them in appearance/introduction will be stronger, which is silly. Take a look at the admirals for example. Aokiji was introduced to us first, so does that mean that he is the strongest out of the three admirals? Absolutely not. How about the vice admirals? Vice Admiral's John Giant, Komir, and Tsuru, were introduced before the 5 vice admirals that were part of the buster call at Enies Lobby. Does this make those 5 vice admirals weaker than the aforementioned 3 vice admirals introduced earlier? No. Let's also not forget Jimbei. He is the last warlord left to be introduced, so would that make him weaker than guys like Kuma or Doflamingo? I think I've provided enough examples as to why earlier introductions are not reliable when it comes to assessing the strengths of characters. What I am trying to say in the end is that we should just wait and see what the other division commanders are like before we assess their strengths in comparison to Ace.

Woah, that was a complete misinterpretation of what I said. I never once said a character will be, or has been, introduced in chronological order of their strength. What I was saying, is the fact that Oda introduced the #'s 1-4 ranking characters first, indicates that the numbers are not meaningless as you guys seem to think. I gave you examples to show you that this isn't just something I came up with off the top of my head, and to show that it has happened like this many times before.

Originally Posted by marvelB

It wasn't so much because Whitebeard was inexperienced, but more like both Ace AND Whitebeard himself greatly underestimated Teach. Remember, Blackbeard told Ace that he was part of Whitebeard's crew for decades. In other words, he had plenty of time to gain strength for himself in secret. The mere fact that he was the one who gave Shanks his scar already implies that he was already an extremely formidable fighter before stealing the darkness fruit. Shanks was well aware of how dangerous Blackbeard was, but unfortunately Whitebeard was too pissed over his betrayal to realize exactly what he was dealing with. Now one of his best men is set to be executed, and the government is preparing to wipe out his crew in the upcoming war. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole execution bit was a ruse that Blackbeard made up to lure Whitebeard into a trap. After all, he's been shown to be quite crafty....

But that's exactly what I'm saying. Ace's decision to fight Blackbeard has almost no bearing on his strength, since Whitebeard's the world's strongest man and even he underestimated Blackbeard.

Oh, and I never said that Shanks called Ace inexperienced. I said that he sort of implies that when he tells Whitebeard that it wasn't the right time for Ace to face off against Teach.

I don't even see how he implied it, all I heard him say was Ace was "young" and "strong."

Again, I'm not saying Ace is some rank amateur. Of course he's got great fighting skills outside of his Logia abilities (after all, Luffy said he could never beat him in a fight during their training days), but he still doesn't strike me as being the flat-out strongest of Whitebeard's men, since we don't really know much about Marco or Jozu, and nothing about the rest of the commanders. For all we know, any of THOSE guys could have a Logia ability or may even be a Haki master who's been part of the crew for as long as Blackbeard was. If so, that would make them much more experienced and formidable than Ace....

You specifically said your willing to bet he only has his position in Whitebeard's crew because he's a logia user. And I specifically said Ace was top three like his number implies, not the "flat out strongest." And I can't tell you anything about "for all we know," but i can tell you about what we do know and that's Ace has been praised for his strength in almost every time that he's mentioned, 2 out of 12 seems like a good number for someone with such a reputation.

Now as far as Haki goes, I'd say that Ace would be familiar with it as well, but as to whether or not he can use it remains to be seen. He may not be able to use it and instead has his Logia powers and already-exceptional fighting abilities to compensate for it. After all, it's been implied that Haki is not an ability that just anyone can learn (I'd think that Shanks knocking out all of the small fries on Whitebeard's ship should be proof of this)....

I don't see how this helps your argument, since this is pretty much what I said.

As I said above, both Ace and Whitebeard underestimated Teach. It's true we don't know how strong Sachi was, but since he was a commander, I highly doubt he was some weakling either. He may have been on par with, or at least close to Ace's level in terms of fighting skills...

Same thing applies here, you wouldn't send someone weaker or on the same level of the person who was killed, to take out the person who killed him.

Also note that Blackbeard was under Ace's division when he killed Sachi, and Ace was sent to take care of him since it was his responsibility as the commander (he clearly tells Luffy this in Alabasta). If Blackbeard were under another division then it would be THAT division's commander who would be sent to hunt him down. Who knows how any of the other commanders would fare against Teach....

Now this is a fair point, but again I don't see how this overwrites my previous point.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

You could not have misinterpreted what I said more if you tried (and quite frankly it certainly seems that you are trying). I specifically said that Marvelb said that the 12 other captains could be stronger than Ace. Meaning that I acknowledged that he didn't say they were. But either thought seems absurd to me.

Please don't try to insult my intelligence, it's quite disrespectful and makes you look like a snob. The problem here was the initial wording in marvelB's post, which is what seemed to goad you into expressing your disagreement. The following in-bold is what he said:

One Piece Yellow reveals that Whitebeard has a total of 16 divisions, along with their own commanders (the total number of men in the crew is 1,600). That means there's 12 other people in the crew who may very well be as strong, possibly even stronger than Ace.

By saying this, he basically implied that all 12 division commanders could be at least as strong as Ace. What he should've said was that perhaps some of the remaining 12 commanders may in fact be as strong or stronger than Ace. It is clear, however, that you refuse to accept the possibility of some of them being stronger than Ace true. My problem with your initial argument was that you said Marco, at the very most, would be stronger than Ace, just based on the fact that he is bestowed the title of 1st division commander. To this, I simply replied that we know absolutely nothing about any of the other division commanders, so it would be premature to start making such statements pertaining to the strengths of the other division commanders. Is it really that hard to just wait and see what the other 12 commanders can do in battle before we make any assessments?

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Ace being Luffy's brother bears no relevance to my argument? Since when is the main character's family irrelevant? All I'm saying is that all of the family that Luffy has that we know of were not in some sort of mediocre category. Garp is a world famous marine. Dragon is the world's most wanted criminal. But Ace somehow is the 5-12 strongest in Whitebeard's crew, not bloody likely.

I agree that Ace is bound to be one of the strongest commanders on Whitebeard's crew for the reason being that he is the protagonist's older brother, but once again, since we don't know anything about any of the other commanders, who is to say that some of them are not as prominent, if not more prominent, than Ace is in the world of One Piece? Ace has only been a pirate for the past three years and I'm quite certain that a lot of the other division commanders have had a lot more experience and have been pirates for a much longer time than Ace has.

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Woah, that was a complete misinterpretation of what I said. I never once said a character will be, or has been, introduced in chronological order of their strength. What I was saying, is the fact that Oda introduced the #'s 1-4 ranking characters first, indicates that the numbers are not meaningless as you guys seem to think. I gave you examples to show you that this isn't just something I came up with off the top of my head, and to show that it has happened like this many times before.

And I never said that the numbers are meaningless. They could in fact relate to a hierarchal system of power, but at this point in time we don't know anything because we have yet to see the other division commanders in action. The whole point I have been emphasizing on this whole time is that we should wait to see such an event happen before making any evaluations.

On a side note, I apologize if I happened to offend you or come off as a little pushy. That was not my intention. I just didn't like the fact that you originally dismissed the division commanders below Jozu as "obsolete".

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Please don't try to insult my intelligence, it's quite disrespectful and makes you look like a snob. The problem here was the initial wording in marvelB's post, which is what seemed to goad you into expressing your disagreement.

Though I stand by what I said, it was not my intention to come across as a snob. And no I was not trying to insult your intelligence, I was merely stating that you completely misinterpreted what I said.

The following in-bold is what he said:

One Piece Yellow reveals that Whitebeard has a total of 16 divisions, along with their own commanders (the total number of men in the crew is 1,600). That means there's 12 other people in the crew who may very well be as strong, possibly even stronger than Ace.

By saying this, he basically implied that all 12 division commanders could be at least as strong as Ace. What he should've said was that perhaps some of the remaining 12 commanders may in fact be as strong or stronger than Ace. It is clear, however, that you refuse to accept the possibility of some of them being stronger than Ace true. My problem with your initial argument was that you said Marco, at the very most, would be stronger than Ace, just based on the fact that he is bestowed the title of 1st division commander. To this, I simply replied that we know absolutely nothing about any of the other division commanders, so it would be premature to start making such statements pertaining to the strengths of the other division commanders.

I beleive that anything, especially in regards to this unpredictable show, is possible. But I'm not arguing over possibility, that would be pointless. I'm arguing over the probability that these things would happen, and the fact that your "Ace could be weaker than the other commander's theory" has no basis at this point. But in regards to possibility, your theory has just as much chance of turning out to be true as mine, I just don't think it will.

Is it really that hard to just wait and see what the other 12 commanders can do in battle before we make any assessments?

I could say the same thing to you considering that your statements, as well as Marvelb's, has been just about 100% speculation. Whereas I have been relying mostly on facts as the basis for my theory.

I agree that Ace is bound to be one of the strongest commanders on Whitebeard's crew for the reason being that he is the protagonist's older brother, but once again, since we don't know anything about any of the other commanders, who is to say that some of them are not as prominent, if not more prominent, than Ace is in the world of One Piece? Ace has only been a pirate for the past three years and I'm quite certain that a lot of the other division commanders have had a lot more experience and have been pirates for a much longer time than Ace has.

I don't think experience plays that big of a part in strength, it's all about will power. Luffy's already world famous and powerful and he's been at it for less than a year. I'm sure there are a lot of guys who have been doing this for a long time, but I wouldn't put them over Ace just based on that. I mean it could be argued that Blackbeard wouldn't have beaten Ace without his Yomi powers, and he certainly has more experience than Ace does.

And I never said that the numbers are meaningless. They could in fact relate to a hierarchal system of power, but at this point in time we don't know anything because we have yet to see the other division commanders in action. The whole point I have been emphasizing on this whole time is that we should wait to see such an event happen before making any evaluations.

A hierarchal system of power? In other words a ranking system, which is what I've been saying from the beginning. And no, you didn't say that the numbers were meaningless, but I do recall you saying that they could be there to give the crew some kind of structure. But come on dude, wouldn't that make the numbers meaningless, I mean you don't need numbers to give a crew structure. And if that's really what they're there for, then that would be very mundane on Oda's part, and Oda has been anything but mundane up until this point. I will however admit, as an alternative theory, that the numbers could be the order in which the divisions were formed. But I would consider that very mundane as well.

On a side note, I apologize if I happened to offend you or come off as a little pushy. That was not my intention. I just didn't like the fact that you originally dismissed the division commanders below Jozu as "obsolete".

No need to apologize, I did in fact call the people below Jozu obsolete. Immediately after which I realized was a very poor choice of words. And I beleive I mentioned something to that effect in my second post. But no I didn't find you pushy.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

I don't even see how he implied it, all I heard him say was Ace was "young" and "strong."

Again, I was really referring to Shank's statement of "it's not the time for those two to meet". Also, note he said that Whitebeard's trust in Ace would complicate matters, which it pretty much did. Like I said before, because Whitebeard entrusted Ace with the task of dealing with a person who was much more dangerous than either of them realized, he now risks losing not just another of his commanders, but his entire crew. If he knew what he was dealing with from the get-go, he would have made the wiser choice of sending one of his stronger/more experienced men after Teach, or even hunt him down himself.

You specifically said your willing to bet he only has his position in Whitebeard's crew because he's a logia user. And I specifically said Ace was top three like his number implies, not the "flat out strongest." And I can't tell you anything about "for all we know," but i can tell you about what we do know and that's Ace has been praised for his strength in almost every time that he's mentioned, 2 out of 12 seems like a good number for someone with such a reputation.

I already acknowledged that Ace had "mad fightin' skillz" outside of his Logia abilities. However, I'm saying that the fact that he IS a Logia with flashy technique is probably why he's got a high position in the first place. Sort of a "more style than substance" kinda thing, y'know? Very powerful, yet still not quite as experienced as any commander who may have seniority over him, like Marco or Jozu. I guess I'm saying that Ace could sort of be the "Supernova" of Whitebeard's crew (though he's not really a rookie).

I don't see how this helps your argument, since this is pretty much what I said.

Wasn't really arguing here. I was just saying that Ace may or may not be a Haki user, that's all.

Same thing applies here, you wouldn't send someone weaker or on the same level of the person who was killed, to take out the person who killed him.

We still don't know how strong Sachi was, though. Heck, we don't even know
how Blackbeard killed the guy in the first place. For all we know, he could have just slit his throat while he was asleep and swiped the fruit. If that was the case, that doesn't really indicate whether the victim was strong or not, since nearly any person without a Logia DF power can be killed in that fashion (like Luffy, for instance). Since we don't even know the exact details of the murder (nor the history of the victim in question), it's still too early to come to the conclusion that the 4th commander was weaker than Ace.....

Now this is a fair point, but again I don't see how this overwrites my previous point.

I'm simply saying that if any of the other commanders were sent to kill Blackbeard instead of Ace, then we'd be getting stories about how famous THOSE guys are, as well. At least most of the commanders should be quite well known, since they're the top men of the world's most powerful pirate....

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

By saying this, he basically implied that all 12 division commanders could be at least as strong as Ace. What he should've said was that perhaps some of the remaining 12 commanders may in fact be as strong or stronger than Ace. It is clear, however, that you refuse to accept the possibility of some of them being stronger than Ace true. My problem with your initial argument was that you said Marco, at the very most, would be stronger than Ace, just based on the fact that he is bestowed the title of 1st division commander. To this, I simply replied that we know absolutely nothing about any of the other division commanders, so it would be premature to start making such statements pertaining to the strengths of the other division commanders. Is it really that hard to just wait and see what the other 12 commanders can do in battle before we make any assessments?

Actually, I think I should've rephrased that as "any of them could be as strong or stronger than Ace". But yeah, the point still stands that it's too early to disregard the rest of the commanders at this point.

[Phenomenal]

Marco, it's got to be Marco.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Again, I was really referring to Shank's statement of "it's not the time for those two to meet". Also, note he said that Whitebeard's trust in Ace would complicate matters, which it pretty much did. Like I said before, because Whitebeard entrusted Ace with the task of dealing with a person who was much more dangerous than either of them realized, he now risks losing not just another of his commanders, but his entire crew. If he knew what he was dealing with from the get-go, he would have made the wiser choice of sending one of his stronger/more experienced men after Teach, or even hunt him down himself.

That's assuming he has stronger more experienced men. And even so that's just one interpretation of it. Another would be, that he entrusted Ace with the task because he had no reason to think that his second strongest man would lose. And once again, I don't see how your in quotation statement implies that Ace is inexperienced.

I already acknowledged that Ace had "mad fightin' skillz" outside of his Logia abilities. However, I'm saying that the fact that he IS a Logia with flashy technique is probably why he's got a high position in the first place. Sort of a "more style than substance" kinda thing, y'know? Very powerful, yet still not quite as experienced as any commander who may have seniority over him, like Marco or Jozu. I guess I'm saying that Ace could sort of be the "Supernova" of Whitebeard's crew (though he's not really a rookie).

There is no way in the world a man such as Whitebeard would promote someone based on how flashy their techniques are, as I said before it's all about will. Crocodile has a whole lot of experience and a Logia ability, but he clearly couldn't hold a stick to Ace seeing as how he lost to Luffy back when his bounty was still 30,000,000.

We still don't know how strong Sachi was, though. Heck, we don't even know
how Blackbeard killed the guy in the first place. For all we know, he could have just slit his throat while he was asleep and swiped the fruit. If that was the case, that doesn't really indicate whether the victim was strong or not, since nearly any person without a Logia DF power can be killed in that fashion (like Luffy, for instance). Since we don't even know the exact details of the murder (nor the history of the victim in question), it's still too early to come to the conclusion that the 4th commander was weaker than Ace.....

Woah, Blackbeard's strength even before he gained his logia ability made Shank's worry about him. If Blackbeard has made a yonkou wary of his power, I don't think he would have to sneak up on a commander who wasn't even important enough to be shown as to how he was killed. If Blackbeard had to sneak up on him to kill him, then he most certainly wouldn't be worthy of all the attention he's getting. (especially since he's shaping up to be one of the main villains of this series). All the clues Oda has been giving us tell me that Blackbeard is extremely powerful, I don't see an extremely powerful man sneaking up on someone to kill them, especially not at the level they're on. And most importantly, the shichibukai vs. Whitebeard pirates battle is more than likely going to include a Whitebeard vs. Blackbeard fight (and that's not just a baseless theory, as Shank's has already said that Blackbeard might come after his title as world's strongest). If he had to sneak up on Satchi, then he most certainly would have to sneak up on Whitebeard as well. And if Whitebeard was the type of person that could be snuck up on and killed he would've died a long time ago.

I'm simply saying that if any of the other commanders were sent to kill Blackbeard instead of Ace, then we'd be getting stories about how famous THOSE guys are, as well. At least most of the commanders should be quite well known, since they're the top men of the world's most powerful pirate....

Really? Because Satchi is dead and we didn't hear anything of his reputation (even though he most certainly has one considering his position). But you would think that after Blackbeard killed him, there would be huge story on how strong he was, and how amazing Blackbeard was for killing him, but there was nothing. Ace on the other hand made Blackbeard famous enough to be made a shichibukai even though they knew absolutely nothing else about him other than he defeated Ace. And I know you could interpret this situation in many other ways than the one I described, but still that's something you have to consider when your speaking of Ace's strength and reputation, and to me it speaks volumes.

Actually, I think I should've rephrased that as "any of them could be as strong or stronger than Ace". But yeah, the point still stands that it's too early to disregard the rest of the commanders at this point.

I never disregarded the other commanders being strong, I just don't think there as strong as Ace. In other words I'm not saying that Ace is very strong and they're just strong, nor am I saying Ace is super strong and they're very strong. I'm saying that Ace is probably MONUMENTALLY strong and they're all super strong.

And I was also arguing that the numbers are not meaningless, and Ace's position in WB's crew is at least indicative of his overall value to the crew and, considering they're a pirate crew, his value would have to be mostly in his strength (and Ace doesn't have much else to offer other than that). I find that to be sort of similar to the marine's system where some of the lower guys may not be as strong as their position implies, but once you get up to the bigger positions then it's pretty much all about strength. For example I doubt there would ever be a rank only Admiral or Vice Admiral for that matter. As for Tsuru, even if she doesn't have any fighting strength, she wasn't introduced as just a vice-admiral, she also had chief-advisor tagged on to her position. Meaning that even if a person holds a high position, from this example we could assume that it will be stated just what their significance is. And with Ace it's clear his significance is to fight.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by marvelB

Now as far as Haki goes, I'd say that Ace would be familiar with it as well, but as to whether or not he can use it remains to be seen. He may not be able to use it and instead has his Logia powers and already-exceptional fighting abilities to compensate for it. After all, it's been implied that Haki is not an ability that just anyone can learn (I'd think that Shanks knocking out all of the small fries on Whitebeard's ship should be proof of this)....

Spoiler for manga:

Well i don't think Shanks knocking out small fries proves anything, since it has been shown that even those without Haki can withstand it... as shown by Kidd and Law and their crews... you don't need Haki to stand against Haki

Actually, thinking about it, i don't think Ace can use Haki or has a very full understanding of it... He was completely shocked that blackbeard could grab him and punch him...

If Haki really does allow a person so strike a logia, then Ace should not have been as surprised that Blackbeard could touch him; he would assume and probably proclaim "you can use Haki?!" before Blackbeard went into his explanation about the darnkness fruit... afterall, Ace nor whitebeard realized blackbeard was strong enough to kill the 4th division commander, so they would continue to underestimate him.

it seems like it could be the case that Ace knows of Haki, and knows some of what the power can do like knock out peons, but may be unfamiliar with the full extent, such as being able to strike Logias. but that's all speculation.

[holypanl]

Nahhh forget I posted that, if you saw it; Sometimes my cynical nature just gets too strong to resist.

@MarvelB: That bit of info about the twelve divisions really gets me pumped up!!!

Twelve people regarded as worthy to captain a ship of the Whitebeard crew??!!! They've all got to be amazing!!

Aside from that, though, I'm still gonna go with the theory about the top four or five being the strongest of the division heads, since, I mean...why else would they be pretty much ON Whitebeard's ship all the time like that, and the others not?

When Rockstarr went to deliver the Message form Shanks, Marco, and Jozu etc were there. Plus when Shanks himself arrived, they were present as well. I mean: Whitebeard would only keep the strongest around himself, right?

I dunno...either way: it just seems cooler that way...