2010-07-09, 11:54 | Link #2481 | |
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There's still a good way this would work - if the killer is always the one to examine the body up until a certain point where the farce is actually dropped and everybody is aware that people are actually dead. After that, it's very unlikely anyone would confess to participating in fakery, because this immediately makes them the prime suspect in any actual murders. Unfortunately that overloads Nanjo -- he has to either be the actual murderer for the FT most of the time, or work for way too many factions at once.
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2010-07-09, 12:01 | Link #2482 | |
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I don't know about that last statement of yours, Nanjo could simply not be a culprit, co-culprit or accomplice at all. Also, we cannot be sure that there are factions. So, I would not say that is a true either/or statement. I just don't like limiting possibilities when they shouldn't be.
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2010-07-09, 12:17 | Link #2483 | |
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And I don't think it's "unlikely" at all that anyone would confess their participating in a fake murder plan. Quite the contrary if you ask me. What would you actually do in that case? Suppose you are being part of such kind of practical joke, it seems a fun idea. Then bam the joke becomes a tragedy! Your friend/mother/father/cousin/son that was supposed to only fake his/her dead was killed in a horrible way. And you just think about saving your own ass from the police? What about saving your ass from a psycho killer first? If it were me I'd spill the beans immediately. But sure, like 100% certainty. I wouldn't even think twice! I don't think my moral and/or intellectual standards are so immensely above everyone else in Rokkenjima. Keeping on the farce after the murder became apparent would only aggravate my position. It was a joke so I didn't take precautions so to not let any crime scene investigation to come at me. It would be illogic and definitely suspicious if a fake plot included such kind of precautions. The most intelligent thing to do is to tell everything ASAP, not to mention the most morally correct. And the fake murder plot must include several people, so it's even more unlikely that no one would start telling the truth.
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2010-07-09, 12:43 | Link #2484 | |
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That doesn't sound too innocent.
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2010-07-09, 12:44 | Link #2485 | |
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1) He is a lynchpin of the fake deaths "game." He is never selected for the First Twilight because his "role" is always to confirm that people are dead. This implies he is always aware of the fake FT, and just never selected. Battler is never selected because he is never planned for; in ep6, he presumably is let in on things (but ep6's board narrative is highly suspect anyway). 2) He is being threatened by the real mastermind and ordered to continue playing his role no matter how truly, really, irrevocably dead the person he examines actually is. When you think about it, if there is a fake deaths game and it's convincing (apparently someone is really good with makeup and stage props), the most important thing for the killer is to have control over the member of the "game" with the broadest powers to maintain the charade. That can't be anyone but Nanjo. As long as Nanjo doesn't suggest anything is out of the ordinary (like "Oh my goodness, he's really dead! He shouldn't REALLY be dead!"), everyone trusts his diagnosis not because they think he's truthful, but because they already know his "role" is to declare everybody's "corpse" as dead. The only real flaw here is that some people are staked in the head or otherwise found in compromising situations where the notion that they aren't dead seems frankly ridiculous at a glance. There's also the problem of Battler potentially ruining everything if he's not in on it. What if he gets distraught, grabs Jessica to hug her, and realizes her heart's still beating? Of course, if the game has been betrayed, and everyone really is dead, then nobody realizes Battler's reaction is the only genuine one present. This could speak to Rudolf realizing there may actually be a killer. Alternately, he's trying to introduce Battler to the "game" but doesn't do a convincing enough job. Depends on who the killer actually is... if it's tied to Asumu somehow, Rudolf may have actual knowledge.
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2010-07-09, 12:48 | Link #2486 | |
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Not because of the police, not at all. Because a public confession like that is exactly what the murderer would want as an excuse to confine me to kill me later, separate me to do the same, or convince everyone to lynch me on the spot -- convincing them I lied now after an announcement like that would be easy. This would immediately destroy any trust anyone had in me. Trust would be the only instrument I have to find and stop the actual killer -- I can't do it if nobody trusts me anymore! Of course, I know I'm not normal, and you may well be right, but assuming people who plan this kind of prank are normal would be... well, odd, don't you think? They may also be abnormal in a very different fashion...
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2010-07-09, 12:52 | Link #2487 |
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Here's a thought: What if the exact moment people realize it isn't a game is the moment Kinzo's body turns up? His death status is undeniable given how burned his body is, and what's more, there's a huge subsection of people (some of whom may be in the faking group, some not) who know for a fact that Kinzo is already dead. Unless someone's plan was to actually slip Kinzo into the faked deaths game (which is pretty much absurd), that's a huge hint that things just got real.
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2010-07-09, 12:59 | Link #2488 | ||
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What's curious though is that at least once Battler does this himself almost without provocation -- that is, in Ep1: Quote:
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2010-07-09, 13:01 | Link #2489 | |
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Would that mean that whoever slips Kinzo's body in is the actual murderer?
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2010-07-09, 13:02 | Link #2490 | ||
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How about this thought, Battler yada yada yada promise to Shanon yada yada yada. So then Shanon decides to mess with Battler when he returns and makes people fake their deaths. Why would they? Well, either everyone needs money or serves the head of the family. That person would be the person who knows where the gold is. Nanjo is the only exception, so he probably just accepted some cash in exchange for cooperation. Then the culprit starts killing people for some reason I don't know. Quote:
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2010-07-09, 13:17 | Link #2491 |
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They can't use Kinzo because Kinzo cannot consent to being part of the "game" and Kinzo cannot be produced later, alive, to reveal that it was all just a game. He is actually dead, and as far as anyone not already aware of this knows, has been murdered. It does not suit the Kinzo Death Faction at all to have his body turn up, ever, and especially not under these circumstances.
Imagine what happens if the fake deaths plan goes off without a hitch. This may well have actually happened in ep2, where Kinzo's body never seems to turn up (though it may be in the study at the end). Why would putting in Kinzo's body help this? If it's a game, it's not funny. If it's a cover-up, it's incongruous (how come Kinzo is the only one who actually died?). This is the old question: Why would Natsuhi and Krauss murder people to cover up Kinzo's death by slipping him in as a real corpse? But of course, we now believe Natsuhi and Krauss would not do such a thing. And more to the point, we now suspect people are faking outright. If that were true, you never want to burn the corpse. It can't work out well for you. And the killer doesn't want to do it either. Once people suspect the deaths are real, your job gets harder. There is one, and only one reason to burn Kinzo's body: You are aware of both the fake death plot and the Kinzo death conspiracy and suspect there is a true murderer, and are going to expose them by throwing in a body everybody will know should not be there.
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2010-07-09, 13:26 | Link #2492 | |
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What would be the reason for the hypothetical Kinzo burner to recover the corpse beforehand? Do they think there might be a true murder so Kinzo needs to be exhumed "just in case", do they know for sure, or do they have some other reason to exhume him and it's just a side effect that this corpse is now available for burning? Why exactly don't they voice their concerns to people involved if they know of both conspiracies?
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2010-07-09, 13:27 | Link #2493 | |
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But you are assuming to be the only one aware of the fake murder plot, and you know it's almost impossible that this is the case in umineko. At least one person, Nanjo, must take part in it and he almost always survives until very late. So if you have at least one person to back your claims, your version of the facts would be trusted enough. Also you need to take in account that there is Battler in the picture, which in almost every case shows his ability to debunk all false accusations. A person like Battler would immediately recognize that a real culprit would never confess to have performed a fake murder, unless there's been suspicions on him in the first place. Anyway if you think that "people would tell but not to everyone". then the question becomes: "why don't they tell to Battler?" In every episode Battler is usually one of the most trusted person. The only exception is the very end of EP2 when there's really no one else left for Rosa to suspect.
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2010-07-09, 13:28 | Link #2494 | |
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Battler had just returned from 6 years of not being to a conference and murders start happening... is he really all that trustworthy?
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2010-07-09, 13:31 | Link #2495 | |
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If you aren't aware of the fake death plan, and you slip in Kinzo's body, you are screwed when everyone else reveals they aren't dead. Of course, that's still possible. Hubris is what it is, after all. However, I think it far more likely that this is some kind of affirmative act by somebody (Genji?) to flush out a real killer. The problem is ep3, where Kinzo appears from the start. Unless Kinzo was not the person who was supposed to be in that boiler room...
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2010-07-09, 13:32 | Link #2496 | ||
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I think this one is based on a fundamental difference of opinion and therefore a singular truth cannot be reached. Quote:
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2010-07-09, 13:35 | Link #2497 |
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Or if they knew there would be no evidence left aside from people who saw him dead. I am just saying that they can't be discounted, yet. Ideally, the person behind the fake death plot is the one who murdered him and slipped him in.
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2010-07-09, 13:39 | Link #2498 |
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I just don't see it being of benefit to the culprit. He or she gains everything from faked deaths being assumed fake as long as humanly possible. Kinzo's "death" is guaranteed to make at least some people realize something's wrong. The Death Conspiracy people will realize he wasn't supposed to turn up, and the Fake Twilights conspiracy will realize no one is really supposed to die.
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2010-07-09, 13:41 | Link #2499 | |
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