Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[dmaxzero]

Saw the movie at last... I liked it, aint a super movie but my opinion is heavily biased beacuse I am long time Macross fan... The story was ok, obvioulsy compressed for a 2 hour show, but had the things I like in this type of popcorn show... Action, Drama, and a Cheesy Ending... Could have been done better? Yes, as always. But that does not dimish the fact that I enjoyed it.

Damn Alto better comeback someday... Finally I liked him as a hero to get himself killed.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Now i will admit there is a chance that Alto could have survived. Even though he was adrift and right next to the vajra queen when she exploded. There is reason to believe that another vajara could have picked him up at the last 2nd. I mean Ai-kun saved Sheryl from the vacuum of space, no reason not to believe that the same thing couldn't have happen to alto. Then there's the cheap ass glimmer of the earring and the twitch of the mouth.

Um, the Vajra Queen folded out with Alto at the end. It's like blindingly obvious too.

Alto survived, that much is obvious. The question is how he will get back, which is only somewhat difficult to discern since he happens to be in telepathic communication with the ultimate folding race in the galaxy. Do things really need to be spelled out entirely these days?

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

I always assumed that with martial law comes certain... expediting measures. When you're in space, running out of air and supplies, and need to be as efficient as possible with regards to everything, I have a hard time not justifying some pretty draconian steps to ensure the survival of the colony. That's a pretty razor's-edge-ey situation.

It's still a pretty harsh measure, even for martial law. I don't specifically recall mention of it being declared, but even under martial law she'd be entitled to a trial, but it would fall under the military court of justice rather than the civilian. Granted, Frontier doesn't necessarily have to use laws found in today's world, just a commentary I had. There could have been more circumstances involved, like enraged citizens at this blatant attack on Frontier by Galaxy, but the tone of the Frontier government there suggested sympathy rather than rage, apologizing for what must happen to Sheryl. Dunno, I'd think it would make more sense just to leave her in prison and try her later if they didn't want to go through it right now. One extra pair of lungs breathing probably isn't that huge a deal in a fleet of 25 million. It hadn't gotten that bad yet.

It is true though that wartime espionage is never treated well, and they are not entitled to the same rights as non-uniformed combatants. Historically, the Vienna Convention is more important for spies than the Geneva Convention, as that establishes procedures for diplomatic immunity which trumps even wartime espionage. I'm a bit surprised the possibility of diplomatic immunity didn't come up, but it may be pointless anyway. With Galaxy apparently dead they actually wouldn't represent a government anymore anyway. Normally I would not expect Sheryl or even Grace to be given diplomatic immunity, but if I were arranging such an operation I would likely get them it anyway as a precaution. Too much is invested in Sheryl to lose, but I digress.

On the other hand, I suppose it's also a little weird that they decided only to execute her. Usually when something like that is going on I kinda think it'll either go the nice Prison/Trial Later method or the Guantanamo method. In short, given she was a wartime spy, I suppose you could say I'm a bit surprising she wasn't interrogated, especially given the brutality of Leon's methods demonstrated up to that point. Granted they had Grace and had infiltrated their network so maybe there was no point, they had all they needed.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

telepathic communication with the ultimate folding race in the galaxy.

Actually thats the... erm... Protodevlins...

- Tak

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Um, the Vajra Queen folded out with Alto at the end. It's like blindingly obvious too.

Alto survived, that much is obvious. The question is how he will get back, which is only somewhat difficult to discern since he happens to be in telepathic communication with the ultimate folding race in the galaxy. Do things really need to be spelled out entirely these days?

1. i have no need to have anything spelled out I am very familiar with Japanese culture in terms heroic, sacrifice and love how each piece plays a integrated roll with the others.

2. you missed the point by a light year

3. you only half of the equation as many others on a multitude of sites including Japanese one seem to think he was dead so if was obvious im pretty sure everything would have come to the same conclusion as you have. I was playing more devils advocate than anything.

4. you are assuming the vajara would bring him back. 2 sides to every coin i see reason for them to do yet i also see the possibility

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

you missed the point by light a year

And you are simply wrong about some details you're basing your points on. If you didn't even catch obvious details like that, how can your opinion be a sound one? If you didn't observe even such incredibly important points, how can you judge the emotional content without bias?


As for the spy execution of Sheryl, it's not really the point whether it was fair or following convention. Leon didn't need a second singer queen when they had Ranka already and used the letter of their law to get rid of Sheryl. You can tell even the citizens of Frontier were exactly happy about that.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually thats the... erm... Protodevlins...

- Tak

Meh, we can blow those up with one Valkyrie, some Sound Boosters, and a singer.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Lancel

Meh, we can blow those up with one Valkyrie, some Sound Boosters, and a singer.

Yeah, this is where plot-induced-stupidity comes to play

The worst part was of course, having them learn how to sing. Thus they end up the only alien race encountered by humanity to become more powerful than they were at the end of the show.

- Tak

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Lancel

Meh, we can blow those up with one Valkyrie, some Sound Boosters, and a singer.

The protodevlin were the ultimate weapon race no? But they technically aren't from our galaxy since they're superdimensional creatures inhabiting the bodies of the weapons created by protoculture iirc.

[John117xCortana]

Originally Posted by Lancel

It's still a pretty harsh measure, even for martial law. I don't specifically recall mention of it being declared, but even under martial law she'd be entitled to a trial, but it would fall under the military court of justice rather than the civilian. Granted, Frontier doesn't necessarily have to use laws found in today's world, just a commentary I had. There could have been more circumstances involved, like enraged citizens at this blatant attack on Frontier by Galaxy, but the tone of the Frontier government there suggested sympathy rather than rage, apologizing for what must happen to Sheryl. Dunno, I'd think it would make more sense just to leave her in prison and try her later if they didn't want to go through it right now. One extra pair of lungs breathing probably isn't that huge a deal in a fleet of 25 million. It hadn't gotten that bad yet.

It is true though that wartime espionage is never treated well, and they are not entitled to the same rights as non-uniformed combatants. Historically, the Vienna Convention is more important for spies than the Geneva Convention, as that establishes procedures for diplomatic immunity which trumps even wartime espionage. I'm a bit surprised the possibility of diplomatic immunity didn't come up, but it may be pointless anyway. With Galaxy apparently dead they actually wouldn't represent a government anymore anyway. Normally I would not expect Sheryl or even Grace to be given diplomatic immunity, but if I were arranging such an operation I would likely get them it anyway as a precaution. Too much is invested in Sheryl to lose, but I digress.

On the other hand, I suppose it's also a little weird that they decided only to execute her. Usually when something like that is going on I kinda think it'll either go the nice Prison/Trial Later method or the Guantanamo method. In short, given she was a wartime spy, I suppose you could say I'm a bit surprising she wasn't interrogated, especially given the brutality of Leon's methods demonstrated up to that point. Granted they had Grace and had infiltrated their network so maybe there was no point, they had all they needed.

That and I don't think they wanted to harm the Galacitic Fairy.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

The protodevlin were the ultimate weapon race no? But they technically aren't from our galaxy since they're superdimensional creatures inhabiting the bodies of the weapons created by protoculture iirc.

To elaborate, Protoculture was experimenting with a new race of Zentradis that required no space ship or weapons to function as the ultimate weapon. They were to be genetically engineered to interact with fold space to amplify their powers. However, in doing so, it attracted the Protodevlin, and the story took a very Warhammer 40K twist (though Macross was around before W40K was a sperm, mind you). The Protodevlin came, corrupted half of the Protoculture armies, and initiated a rebellion that caused the galaxy to implode (almost).

The Protodevlin needed to sustain their presence in real space by devouring the souls of the living. One single Protodevlin was noted to wipe out an entire fleet of 5 million ships + death star in one go. Milia would recall that incident in Macross 7, so one can guess just how old she is...

On the other hand, the Vajra aren't limited to one galaxy either, they are just supposedly be found near (any) galactic center.

- Tak

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

3. you only half of the equation as many others on a multitude of sites including Japanese one seem to think he was dead so if was obvious im pretty sure everything would have come to the same conclusion as you have. I was playing more devils advocate than anything.

4. you are assuming the vajara would bring him back. 2 sides to every coin i see reason for them to do yet i also see the possibility

I have Kawamori on my side here you know: "an interview with Kawamori not long after basically said "Dudes, Alto didn't die, and Sheryl woke up. Where did you get these crazy notions?""

Along with the on screen evidence that the Queen clearly folded out before the Macross Quarter cannons blow up the mountains behind them. This is kinda important.

1. i have no need to have anything spelled out I am very familiar with Japanese culture in terms heroic, sacrifice and love how each piece plays a integrated roll with the others.

Oh yeah, "I'm more otaku than you therefore I'm right".

To elaborate, Protoculture was experimenting with a new race of Zentradis that required no space ship or weapons to function as the ultimate weapon. They were to be genetically engineered to interact with fold space to amplify their powers. However, in doing so, it attracted the Protodevlin, and the story took a very Warhammer 40K twist (though Macross was around before W40K was a sperm, mind you). The Protodevlin came, corrupted half of the Protoculture armies, and initiated a rebellion that caused the galaxy to implode (almost).

Hmm, I wonder how the Vajra would stand up against the Protodevlin. That is, whether they'll adapt eventually.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

And you are simply wrong about some details you're basing your points on. If you didn't even catch obvious details like that, how can your opinion be a sound one? If you didn't observe even such incredibly important points, how can you judge the emotional content without bias?

I actually saw a fold as well however others seem to believe they saw an explosion as well, which is what i was reiterating and i see how other viewers could have seen an explosion as well. Again my point was not really directed that much about the scene in general to me that scene was not overwhelming important (because of how the rest of the movie was presented) the dialog itself was more important than the scene. You say its blindingly obvious i say if it was there were be no discussion on any forum as to weather he was alive or deceased.

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

I have Kawamori on my side here you know: "an interview with Kawamori not long after basically said "Dudes, Alto didn't die, and Sheryl woke up. Where did you get these crazy notions?""

Along with the on screen evidence that the Queen clearly folded out before the Macross Quarter cannons blow up the mountains behind them.

yeah iv heard that one before in about 1000 other series

Oh yeah, "I'm more otaku than you therefore I'm right".

hmmmm..... fine you win im just a fan dont like labels

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Again my point was not really directed that much about the scene in general to me that scene was not overwhelming important (because of how the rest of the movie was presented) the dialog itself was more important than the scene. You say its blindingly obvious i say if it was there were be no discussion on any forum as to weather he was alive or deceased.

Well, I meant to say that it shouldn't have been a particular poignant moment beyond that the Vajra Queen chose to believe Alto since he didn't go and get obliterated. The entire foundation of that moment having to be an overwhelming emotional sacrifice is moot because that's not what it is at all.



In fact, the ending of the Frontier movie isn't even entirely a bittersweet one (if the happy Sheryl and Ranka concert in the credits wasn't a big enough hint).

Alto and Sheryl clearly are in love with each other. Ranka has accepted this and more importantly it was made clear to her by Alto as well. Sheryl does in fact wake up while Alto didn't die and has a clear avenue of return (although there's no reason to suppose that he 100% did come back, it's not a stretch to think he did).



I chose to believe that the TV series ended with Alto + Ranka + Sheryl threesome forever but it certainly wasn't even close to closing anything out in that regard.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

although there's no reason to suppose that he 100% did come back).

There is an infamous scan from the official movie artbook where Alto sat beside a naked Sheryl who just awoke in midst of what appeared to be medical equipment.

- Tak

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Tak

There is an infamous scan from the official movie artbook where Alto sat beside a naked Sheryl who appeared to have just awoke in midst of what appeared to be medical equipment.

- Tak

Awesome! That completes the happy ending in my mind.


In that case though, unless the theatrical version rendered the final Vajra Queen scene entirely differently, wtf is up with "the Vajra Queen got blown up with Alto" thing? Wish someone had comparison shots for that scene.

[ZhangKhaiEn]

Originally Posted by Tak

There is an infamous scan from the official movie artbook where Alto sat beside a naked Sheryl who just awoke in midst of what appeared to be medical equipment.

- Tak

Would it be possible to provide a scan of said page?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ZhangKhaiEn

Would it be possible to provide a scan of said page?

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4809/064f301b.jpg

- Tak

[darkplataform]

Originally Posted by ZhangKhaiEn

Would it be possible to provide a scan of said page?

it would be this:


which is the final version of this one.

Spoiler for .:

Obviously done in the planning of the movie and not a last minute decision, if you check the date written in it