2012-09-07, 17:24 | Link #261 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Basically, there's a false equivalency being asserted here, that both sides are the same. The Republicans have said out loud that they refuse to compromise on any issue. Meanwhile the Democrats have offered compromises, tried to negotiate, etc. since 2008. There's no resemblance at all to the compromise work between both parties that happened in the 1980s or mid-1990s.
When you have one person willing to compromise negotiating with someone who isn't willing to compromise, what do you think the outcome is going to be? It is almost like blaming the victim as well as the bully in a school setting when you label them both at fault (which.. often happens). I self-identify as an Eisenhower or Teddy Roosevelt Republican and have watched the evolution of the GOP for the last 40 years. I don't see a party today that I'd call entirely sane and that's being as civil as I can about it. Quote:
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2012-09-07, 17:32 | Link #262 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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Not sure how the topic of false equivalence is being brought up when it's the topic about how "liberals" in general are becoming more intolerant than before. Fortunately cool heads still are the main part of the Democrats.
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2012-09-07, 17:42 | Link #263 | |
勇者
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 34
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Quote:
Took Mussolini about 6 years to grasp power apparently, so yeah Fascism in Italy took awhile till it got full control.
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2012-09-07, 18:11 | Link #267 | |
勇者
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 34
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Quote:
Looking back now that is probably now the scariest Treehouse of Horror base on how accurate it was.
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2012-09-07, 18:14 | Link #268 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Looking at the situation here in Canada, even a 3 (or more) party system isnt that different; mnore party don't mean than all the party would have the same strenght, there always some major parties and some less importants.
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2012-09-07, 18:18 | Link #269 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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In most countries, they form alliances so that everyone usually gets a little of what they want (e.g. Greens+ChristianDems or whatever). I don't assert its a *solution*... just less bad
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2012-09-07, 18:53 | Link #270 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Quote:
For example, Obamacare was pushed through only after gutting out many key provisions and basically bribing many conservative Democratic congressmen with pork barrel. The final plan resembled nothing like a universal healthcare plan and rather looked like what was once proposed by...the Republican Party. And immediately after the passage, the same Republican Party proceeded to condemn it as the worst excess of socialistic government, bringing about the triumph of the Tea Party movement in 2010, an election categorized by lukewarm turnout from much of the country and a certain party vanguard quality to the voting blocks. Only the partisans and the very angry people vote (who were not angry about the economy, but what they saw as an attack on "American values" -- values many Americans don't share). This forced many Progressives to close ranks, especially as the sense of danger ramped up with the flood of SuperPAC money, intensification of violent rhetoric (I've never heard a liberal ask for the overthrow of government in Obama's tenure, but plenty of the right outright consider him illegitimate), forced and questionable electoral law changes, and aggressive anti-immigration, anti-abortion, anti-gay measures in Republican-dominated state legislatures. Compromise brought the far right out of the woodwork and into a dominant position far beyond their actual numbers, destroying the achievement of 2008; what do you expect the Left to do? Play nice; give up on democracy? "You have a point, so do I, let's compromise" and "we have differing principles but I get where you're coming from" only work if the other side doesn't go "fuck you, socialist un-American Muslim pro-death panel scum." |
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2012-09-07, 19:01 | Link #272 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Oh... well, I thought that was the whole point of an alliance. The major party can't get enough votes to rule on their own so they make deals with the smaller parties. Ignore the small party too long and they "secede" forcing new elections.
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2012-09-07, 19:18 | Link #273 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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The positive aspect of a parliamentary system is that there's less opportunity for gridlock. There is only one chamber, and that chamber holds absolute power. You can't get a situation where two different parties dominate the different organs.
The executive power and legislative power is held by the same group of people. If the executive loses it's legislative majority, the government falls and a new election ensues. In the American system, the executive hobbles on until the end of it's term. |
2012-09-07, 19:26 | Link #274 | |
→ Wandering Bard
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Grancel City, Liberl Kingdom
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@Irenicus: My thoughts exactly. The appearance of "Intolerance" over the past four years is a manifestation of frustration by the more Progressive faction of the Democratic Party. Many were willing to allow the Administration a free hand in dealing with Republicans, but the unusually straight Party line votes before 2010 elections certainly signaled that it was futile to even do so in the first place. So they "closed ranks" and are now appearing to be a lot more vocal in their opposition with "negotiating" for a middle ground.
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Although the Filibuster in the Senate does certainly throw a wrench at the idea of the two party system majority if the minority could just as easily hold the government to a grinding halt. (in secrecy at times) Edit: Oops, forgot to differentiate between Parliamentary and Presidential systems. Oh well DonQuigleone already pointed it out.
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2012-09-07, 20:10 | Link #275 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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I have to echo what others have said earlier about drawing a false equivalence between the two parties. The Democrats are not saints, they're a political party much like any other. In terms of political parties all over the world they are unremarkable. But they do apply themselves to the job of governing, even if you might disagree with some (or even many) of their choices.
The Republicans are currently a bunch of demagogic crazies. And if they're not crazy, they're just corrupt. They're policies are not based on reality. It's entirely "truthiness". I would classify the Democrats as being similar to the Conservatives in the UK, or Christian Democrats in Germany, parties whose precise policies I may not agree with, who may or may not be weak or incompetent, but who are at least grounded in reality. If there was a credible equivalent to the Canadian NDP or British Liberal Democrats I might vote for them instead, but the Democrats aren't a half bad alternative, they're certainly not the almost anti-christ like figures certain elements of their opposition make them out to be. And it least they hold true to the principles of modern democratic government (separation of church & state, regulated capitalism, democratic governance), principles that used to be popular in the Republican Party too... |
2012-09-07, 21:13 | Link #278 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Quote:
Japan's democracy is healthier than America's. Votes had to be earned.
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2012-09-07, 21:14 | Link #279 | ||
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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As another example of the "no, it really isn't the same" -- this happened today, the analysis reflects on the innate differences between the two sides:
http://www.politicususa.com/16-year-...president.html Quote:
Quote:
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Last edited by Vexx; 2012-09-07 at 21:36. |
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2012-09-08, 00:15 | Link #280 | |
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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Quote:
And speaking of meds... has this been posted yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ud3pK5Wa90 Apologies ahead if this is a duplicate but it's still worth the repeat.
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