2009-09-26, 08:22 | Link #2061 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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2009-09-26, 08:26 | Link #2062 | |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I've said before that I'm not interested in discussing religion as a means to explain the universe. That hasn't happened in academic circles for centuries, and I don't intend to start now. Religion is a social phenomenon. If we're seriously going to discuss existence, invite me when you start doing so, and I will gladly share my thoughts. |
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2009-09-26, 08:31 | Link #2063 | |||
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We are human because we choose to move. If one truly accepted all of these indefiniteness, then one does not even need life. Your discussing this now because you "believe" it *will* create progress and, for that, it requires attention, but what you have to truly understand is that we shouldn't let this act as a "roadblock" towards "advancement". Quote:
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2009-09-26, 08:46 | Link #2064 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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This applies to me as well. I'm a devout Catholic and I have faith, but if my faith has taught me anything it's that simple faith alone does not suffice. I question my faith, it's grounding and it's ultimate end. I wish to seek evidence of my faith and the outcome it will lead me to. I want it there, tangible and observable. People assume that questioning one's faith is a sign of weakness but no, it is not. Only by questioning faith and seeking the evidence of where it is rooted on is the only way to strengthen it in the long run. I seek to understand why I believe, and why I should continue to do so. I for one believe that my God itself has evidence of His existence in some form or another. He is not just some abstract concept built by man over the years. He is THERE, in a way that only those who tryto actually search for it will find. Maybe perhaps there is no objective evidence of His existence and the morality he imposes on me, but in the end I'm convinced that if I ever find it, it will be evidence enough for me that it will satiate both my faith-based questioning and my science-based ones. I don't believe that faith and science are mutually exclusive. I believe, in fact, that it's ultimate union exists in the form of the Deity I worship when I finally find Him and am convinced, without a doubt, that He is there.
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2009-09-26, 09:01 | Link #2065 | |
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2009-09-26, 09:08 | Link #2066 | |
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2009-09-26, 09:14 | Link #2067 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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People follow a definitive truth/existence because it has been found as proven and true. Progress follows because humanity sought truth through science and in some ways, religion. The problem begins when people only want evidence and truth that is already there. They stop thinking, in a sense. This is precisely my point. People move forward because they sought answers; in contrast they stagnate when they want others to find answers for them. The ultimate goal of faith is the knowledge of truth: that by believing in the abstract and finding way to prove it then faith is validated. Faith isn't a passive activity, faith is an approach to truth. It just so happens that faith starts of shakier ground than science, but in the end both science and faith are after the same thing.
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2009-09-26, 09:19 | Link #2068 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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By limited, I mean - not all choices will be availabe to an individual - every choice has a consequence - a person may not have the liberty in choosing the consequence As for destiny, I believe - God already knows in advance the choices that will be made by humans - he can and do make his own choices that affect human liberty One example is Jesus Christ himself. A person has the ability to accept or reject Christ, and that is the liberty and free will that man has. But there are also many who will never hear of Christ before they die. That shows two things, first it shows God's choices do affect humans. Secondly, in other cases it also shows the liberty that believers have in choosing not to spread the good news. And that choice has its own consequence for both the believers and those who never got the chance to believe, even if they wanted to. Having said all that, I don't know if hearing about Christ would change those people who never heard of him. There are people who have heard of him, and they still rejected him. So maybe it doesn't matter after all. Whatever the case, I believe God knows the hearts of every human beings better than anyone, even themselves. And the choices he made does not erase the liberty, however limited it is, that humans do enjoy. On the other hand, the liberty that humans do enjoy does not change that God is still God and has the power over all human lives. So for destiny, I do not believe it in the sense that everything we do is directly controlled by God. Although God can certainly dictate every thought and action, and I believe he controls all physical laws, he has chosen to give humans some free will over their own lives. And that choice is what produces the limited liberty we currently take for granted. Just that he is still God and makes his own plan. |
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2009-09-26, 09:28 | Link #2069 | |||||
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2009-09-26, 09:32 | Link #2070 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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This I believe
This is for the Christians (and those who challenge them without understanding)
"Religious belief has made me comfortable with ambiguity... When I was young, I couldn't tolerate such ambiguity. My education had trained me to have a lust for answers and explanations. Now, at age 63, it's all quite different. I no longer believe this is a quid pro quo universe — I've counselled too many prisoners, worked with too many failed marriages, faced my own dilemmas too many times and been loved gratuitously after too many failures."This is for the atheists (I believe you'd love it) "I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy — you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do... But, this This I Believe thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, 'This I believe: I believe there is no God.' Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life."This is for the slaves to science (do you truly think you're smarter than him?) "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the Mysterious — the knowledge of the existence of something unfathomable to us, the manifestation of the most profound reason coupled with the most brilliant beauty... I am satisfied with the mystery of life's eternity... This is the basis of cosmic religiosity, and it appears to me that the most important function of art and science is to awaken this feeling among the receptive and keep it alive." - Albert EinsteinThese are for the artists (for to perform is to partake in Creation) "In ordinary life, I'm a civil engineer... But in my other life, I am a pianist, bringing to life with my own hands the genius of Bach, Mozart and Chopin... One time, feeling bold, I played a Mozart Sonata in an airport lobby, between connecting flights. People slowed down or even stopped to listen; readers looked up from their chairs. I saw smiles and heard a smattering of applause. I thought: No one smiled and clapped after my presentation on the site engineering for a new strip mall..." "I believe in the alphabet, because it has the power to change life... (On) the very first day I joined an adult literacy class...I was introduced to (the) letters that stood for my name. In discovering the Nepali alphabet, I discovered I was Cha-me-li and not Cha-mi-li, as everyone used to call me. It felt like magic. A little loop of "e" for "i" changed my name! If three letters could change my name, how much would I be able to transform my life if I understood all the letters?" "When I write a poem, I process experience. I take what's inside me — the raw, chaotic material of feeling or memory — and translate it into words and then shape those words into the rhythmical language we call a poem. This process brings me a kind of wild joy. Before I was powerless and passive in the face of my confusion, but now I am active: the powerful shaper of my experience. I am transforming it into a lucid meaning. Because poems are meanings, even the saddest poem I write is proof that I want to survive." "I (believe) the world is essentially a literary energy. That the world was more than a place. Life was more than an event. It was all one thing, and that thing was: story... Now, if it is all story, I believe we are the narrators. Many writing instructors will tell you that to be a great writer, you must be attentive. Shamans will tell you the same thing: If you want to be a good person, a whole person, wake up! Pay attention! Be here now! Zen monks will go so far as to hit you with a stick. Look!========== About 'This I Believe' This I Believe is based on a 1950s radio programme of the same name. In reviving This I Believe, executive producer Dan Gediman said: "The goal is not to persuade Americans to agree on the same beliefs. Rather, the hope is to encourage people to begin the much more difficult task of developing respect for beliefs different from their own." During its four years on NPR, ending on April 24, 2009, This I Believe engaged listeners in a discussion of the core beliefs that guide their daily lives. Although the NPR series has concluded, the project lives on at the This I Believe website: thisibelieve.org Essay guidelines Tell a story: Be specific. Take your belief out of the ether and ground it in the events of your life. Be brief: Your statement should be between 350 and 500 words. Name your belief: If you can’t name it in a sentence or two, your essay might not be about belief. Be positive: Please avoid preaching or editorialising. Tell us what you do believe, not what you don't believe. Be personal: Keep editing and simplifying your essay until you find the words, tone, and story that truly echo your belief and the way you speak. |
2009-09-26, 09:54 | Link #2071 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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That is why even though I probably don't "celebrate" Christmas and Easter like most Christians currently do, and certainly not like the rest of the world does, I can still give thanks to God, especially in those holidays (but any day, really) for he has given himself in the form of Christ, the greatest gift in my opinion. |
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2009-09-26, 09:54 | Link #2072 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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What I mean is that it is natural for man to believe easier in something tangible and physical because they know it's THERE. They can believe easier in a car powered by petrol to get them to work than say, a badass flaming chariot to bring them to heaven (ala Elijah). I'm not here to debate whether exclusive belief and trust in the tangible will be able to bring progress and betterment to humanity, just to restate that people find comfort in something they know without a doubt is there. Also, you're arguing that there's only one tangible thing, which is the self. Isn't this likewise an excessively subjective POV? Reality is not simply a personal synthesis of personal experiences and perceptions but likewise an amalgamation(sp?) of everything and everyone else. Think about it this way: if you say that only the personal self is a confirmable reality, does that mean the self of others is not true reality? Likewise if they say the same thing about themselves, does that negate the existence of your own reality? Or is it, perhaps, that reality is not a single entity but the collective personal realities of everything in the universe? No offense but you need to try and understand human nature more. If the supposed failure to find that which is indefinite serves only to halt the search for answers, then we'd all still be clubbing each other with sticks and wondering if poop is edible. Probatio Diabolica: you can prove that something exists simply by giving evidence, but you cannot prove something does not exist, with the only exception is to have investigated the entirety of the universe and time-space. The inability to find the truth to something not yet defined is not the same as it not existing. This is precisely why people don't stop searching when they feel they have failed: they continue searching and searching until they find it, are completely exhausted, or simply want to stop. Some are even content with the struggle itself, rolling up the damn rock over the hill to watch it fall down again. So far no one has explored the entirety of the universe in search for answers, ehich is why people continue searching. We all struggle to find answers, surely, and again it returns to the question of faith and belief that exists likewise and science. We believe it is there and, until proven otherwise, we will keep looking for it. This is what drives man despite the perception of failure. It may even be said that failure isn't the absence of what you're looking for, but rather because you simply didn't search enough. Agreed. This is definitely something everyone needs to see. Rep for you.
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2009-09-26, 10:06 | Link #2073 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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These are for Ledgem (bear witness)
"I remember, May 1944: I was 15-and-a-half, and I was thrown into a haunted universe where the story of the human adventure seemed to swing irrevocably between horror and malediction. I remember, I remember because I was there with my father... We talked a lot to each other, especially in the evenings, but never of death. "I believe in asking hard questions and arguing about them. I grew up in Israel in the '70s with the shadows of the Holocaust. As children, we knew that the people with the blue numbers on their arms were survivors, forcibly tattooed by Nazis in concentration camps, such as Auschwitz. In my family, too, the Holocaust left scars. My grandparents managed to escape Germany, but they left behind relatives and friends.This is for the Chinese (my people, my history, my heritage) "I am a good child, obedient. I grew up in China, a country where education is the centre of every child's life and a grade less than 85 per cent is considered a failure. Grades mean more to us than a mother's smile, more than the murmur of a wish lingering on birthday candles. I had homework during lunch, math and language classes two times a day. There were punishments for not paying attention. I was beaten with a ruler. I learnt to do anything to get a good grade. I believe in duty, but that belief comes with sacrifice. The achievements I make come with a cost."These are for parents (for without them, we are nothing) "I am pregnant. In the brief moments between dramatic dashes to the bathroom and just as dramatic raids of the refrigerator, I sometimes sit and philosophise about what kind of person I would like to bring into this world. "The simplest way to say it is this: I believe in my mother... One night my mother came home from working her multiple jobs and I complained about not having enough Italian knit shirts. She said, 'Okay, I'll give you all the money I make this week scrubbing floors and cleaning bathrooms, and you can buy the family food and pay the bills. With everything left over, you can have all the Italian knit shirts you want.' "'It is trisomy 21. It is Down syndrome.' |
2009-09-26, 10:38 | Link #2074 | |||
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2009-09-26, 10:53 | Link #2075 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Likewise you assume that faith is more tangible and trustworthy than proof and evidence which seems to boggle me considering that evidence itself is the ideal physical manifestation of belief and faith. Faith should lead to truth. Me and anyone else can engage this with you all day but the argument will never proceed as long as you believe that your own self reality is the only basis of tangible proof, and no other proof outside that can exist. How about this challenge instead: what about having faith in the proposed reality and proof of other people? If you can place some sort of faith in a God you've never met, how about showing some degree of the same faith in another human created by him? If you think that faith is the only means for you to accept the world then why not apply that same frame of mind to tangible existences? Until you do that then this debate will never progress, and you will never be able to accept a reality differing from your own.
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2009-09-26, 11:03 | Link #2076 | ||||
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1. I do not assume that faith is more tangible than proof and evidence. I'm only accepting it, in place of proof and evidence, because I believe that proof and evidence can't be found by mere logic alone. 2. Belief and Faith is not the physical manifestation of evidence. It is belief, not solid fact. Quote:
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I'm hoping things were clearer this time. Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-26 at 11:21. |
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2009-09-26, 11:27 | Link #2077 | |||||
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Now should the same question be asked to you, you've already answered it on the basis of your personal faith. Likewise the argument cycle begins again. If people apply the same thought process as you, to use faith with logic to establish their belief in their own existence and reality, why then cannot you accept that their realities exist on the same basis? Quote:
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2009-09-26, 11:46 | Link #2078 | ||||||
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Last edited by Cipher; 2009-09-26 at 12:00. |
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2009-09-26, 11:59 | Link #2079 | ||||
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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My point was that even if reality as a whole cannot be completely and objectively be proven, some people hang on to the smaller truths that exist stronger than faith. Even if reality itself in it's wide scope cannot be objectively proven, there are smaller truths that, while they do not prove reality itself, exist as truths strong enough for people to latch on to. Quote:
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2009-09-26, 12:16 | Link #2080 | ||
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I think what you meant by "smaller truths" is...."truths"in terms of practicality. And To that, I agree. Quote:
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not a debate, philosophy, religion |
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