Dating

[Fome]

I've heard that the extant of the Ladder Theory's accuracy varies across cultures. My uncle (he has lived in Japan since high school) says that over there many romantic relationships begin with close friendships, and over time they become more attached to each other.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Fome

I've heard that the extant of the Ladder Theory's accuracy varies across cultures. My uncle (he has lived in Japan since high school) says that over there many romantic relationships begin with close friendships, and over time they become more attached to each other.

That contradicts it.
Ladder theory in typically states that a woman has two models, a man has 1.
If a man doesn't begin within the 'potential' side (friends, but viewing secretly as a potential bf) - and get's stuck in the friendzone.
He's staying in the friendzone simply cause he fits her emotional needs so well, she sees no reason to risk that for a relationship, nor will her mind switch suddenly to view someone you're comfy with platonically as someone you may wanna have sex with.
It's perhaps more common in cultures where males and females have more platonic friendships than cultures where they court each other with potential of being more or it's strictly on a work level, where the relationship goes no further than what's being discussed in the office.

Hence going with Miko Miko's situation with a guy she's really close with and doesn't wanna lose him as a friend, but doesn't feel more for him at this point in time, you mentioned the model, no?

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

Bad boys are for flings, nice boys are for long term relationships.
So... put on the whichever personality suitable for your motive

Though generalizations are ... generalizations. So the best advice i could give you is read her body language, see what kinda girl she is like before you move in for the "kill".
Casual but with some sexual tension approach is what i like to adopt most of the time until i figure out the next step.

Puts Jazzrat on the 'potential' ladder.
Simply cause (upon success, some women may be on 'instant hostile' mode and feel offended) he's planted a seed of an idea of presenting himself as someone to be viewed sexually. Even if a woman thinks upon it for a few secs, it's typically enough.
"He's a really nice guy, kind, sweet, makes me laugh. He's also kinda hot and flirts well.... wonder what he'd be like as more than a friend...? Wonder if he already has a gf?"
The relationship may be nothing more than friends, but if there's good chemistry going on, then chances increase that you won't be stuck in the friend zone permanently.
Stereotypes are always good for 'general' ground, but naturally read and treat each individual according to what suits their personality best.

[Fome]

Originally Posted by Mystique

That contradicts it.
Ladder theory in typically states that a woman has two models, a man has 1.
If a man doesn't begin within the 'potential' side (friends, but viewing secretly as a potential bf) - and get's stuck in the friendzone.
He's staying in the friendzone simply cause he fits her emotional needs so well, she sees no reason to risk that for a relationship, nor will her mind switch suddenly to view someone you're comfy with platonically as someone you may wanna have sex with.
It's perhaps more common in cultures where males and females have more platonic friendships than cultures where they court each other with potential of being more or it's strictly on a work level, where the relationship goes no further than what's being discussed in the office.

Hence going with Miko Miko's situation with a guy she's really close with and doesn't wanna lose him as a friend, but doesn't feel more for him at this point in time, you mentioned the model, no?

Yeah, the ladder theory is still completely relevant in this case. I'm just saying I heard it's different in Japan. I don't know which of the two reasons you offered might be attributed to it.

[whitepearl]

Originally Posted by Fome

I've heard that the extant of the Ladder Theory's accuracy varies across cultures. My uncle (he has lived in Japan since high school) says that over there many romantic relationships begin with close friendships, and over time they become more attached to each other.

I'm inclined to agree it varies with cultures. Among the Chinese I have noticed romances do start from close friendships. Yet in America, among non-Chinese cultures, the male has already been regarded as being defeated and taking a loss if the romantic relationship he seeks in a girl becomes just a friendship. Of course, it doesn't apply to every male here...but among some.

[LeoXiao]

Bad boys are for flings, nice boys are for long term relationships.

lol that's pretty much what I've thought (hoped) for a long time.

[Throne Invader]

I just reread the ladder theory thing and alot of it or rather most of it doesn't apply in the Philippines. It's way different

I typed ladder theory on yahoo then clicked the 1st result. I really do feel sorry for the guy who made that website

[0utf0xZer0]

Thanks for the various advice, people. I'm not going to reveal exactly what I sent her, but I think talking about it a little helped immensely in choosing an approach I can have confidence in.

Originally Posted by Witchburn

You should be prepared to be rejected and perhaps feel slightly embarrassed but tell yourself it's ok because you tried. There would be higher chances of her saying yes if you talk with her and got to know a bit of her personal life. Good Luck with that

I haven't had to deal with rejection before, but last time I was this interested in a girl, she ended up with the friend I brought along when I meet her because I thought it would be too awkward if it was just us two. So I have lost before, at least - and was able to do so graciously, although I'm not sure I could have kept a straight face if he'd mentioned they were going out in a face to face setting.

Originally Posted by Narona

As an advice, I would say that men should not believe that they have to disguise their intentions. I am a girl who talk to many girls, and one of the recurrent topics is that men should be more sincere Many girls can feel it when a guy does things because he ultimately wants to ask the girl out, so no need to beat around the bush.

Heh... I'll try and bare that in mind. Although I suspect for some guys, the need to have perfect timing is partly a matter of nerves - putting the matter off until you know you're not going to get another shot that good.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I haven't had to deal with rejection before, but last time I was this interested in a girl, she ended up with the friend I brought along when I meet her because I thought it would be too awkward if it was just us two. So I have lost before, at least - and was able to do so graciously, although I'm not sure I could have kept a straight face if he'd mentioned they were going out in a face to face setting.

Awww Well the same thing kind of happened to 2 of my friends. The worst part is that they were best friends. One of em was interested in the guy. Actually they were interested in each other but then the guy became interested in my other friend because they take the same route going home. In the end it became the two of them. My first friend was crushed. Their friendship was never the same again

Don't lose hope 0utf0xZer0. I'm pretty sure the girl for you is just out there And whatever happens, pay no heed to the ladder theory The answer on how to get our special someone is inside of all of us and not on some theory.

[Shinoto]

Originally Posted by Witchburn

Awww Well the same thing kind of happened to 2 of my friends. The worst part is that they were best friends. One of em was interested in the guy. Actually they were interested in each other but then the guy became interested in my other friend because they take the same route going home. In the end it became the two of them. My first friend was crushed. Their friendship was never the same again

And what does this teach you now about the ladder theory. You always want to be at the top. When two predators fight over the prey. You better damn well hope your the TRex with Lazers and Bazooka side attachments with power jets for hovering. We know he is on top of the ladder. Ladder Theory 1, Haters 0 >_<

Its like darwinism, Survival of the fittest. The stronger prey will always win. Like how the lion gets the Gazelle...unless that Gazelle was genetically modified with blood of a Trex to create a super mutagen species of incredible speed and deadliness. Then its more like Predator rules, Were the Predator becomes the prey. Except I really don't know how Arnold could be seen as anything but the predator. But that would be an entirely different set of rules

See dating is complicated ****. I have no idea what I'm talking about now but I want both Denny's and a copy of Predator.



Joking aside, Regardless of what happens Zero. Don't doubt, Don't ponder and worst of all, Do not say what if. All that will do is make you loose your hair early...You'll end up in a worst state than prior.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by Shinoto

And what does this teach you now about the ladder theory. You always want to be at the top. When two predators fight over the prey. You better damn well hope your the TRex with Lazers and Bazooka side attachments with power jets for hovering. We know he is on top of the ladder. Ladder Theory 1, Haters 0 >_<

Its like darwinism, Survival of the fittest. The stronger prey will always win. Like how the lion gets the Gazelle...unless that Gazelle was genetically modified with blood of a Trex to create a super mutagen species of incredible speed and deadliness. Then its more like Predator rules, Were the Predator becomes the prey. Except I really don't know how Arnold could be seen as anything but the predator. But that would be an entirely different set of rules

See dating is complicated ****. I have no idea what I'm talking about now but I want both Denny's and a copy of Predator.



Joking aside, Regardless of what happens Zero. Don't doubt, Don't ponder and worst of all, Do not say what if. All that will do is make you loose your hair early...You'll end up in a worst state than prior.

Thanks for putting emphasis on my example Shinoto I didn't learn much They weren't exactly fighting over him to see who would get him. My first friend would have understood if my second friend at least told her before my first friend found out it was already them. The ladder theory didn't say much about friendship between two people of the same sex

[Narona]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

lol that's pretty much what I've thought (hoped) for a long time.

The bad boys are worthless

*runs*

Joking aside, from what I have personally seen, to be fair there are some boys who are mistaken as bad boys.

The ones that are not real bad boys, but are categorized by some people as such. They are just a bit antisocial and show an unfriendly character. But if they have some friends, they are nice with them in their own way. And they have no problem to study well, or to get a good job. If you are courageous enough to scratch the surface, you can actually discover that they can be quite nice.

Originally Posted by Witchburn

I just reread the ladder theory thing and alot of it or rather most of it doesn't apply in the Philippines. It's way different

I typed ladder theory on yahoo then clicked the 1st result. I really do feel sorry for the guy who made that website

The Ladder Theory doesn't apply in every case from my pov. I talked about it with somebody and I was amused as how he spun things. I know a few couples that started with complete platonic friendship (yeah even in France), and they unexpectedly fell in love later over time. But when I said that, he said to me "but that was because the girl put him subconsciously on the first ladder blablabla" If you use that way to explain things, you can spin everything. *I* prefer to trust the people I talk to when they explain how things were and evolved, and not people who think they can know other people better than those people themselves.

Secondly, I could say that some men have two ladders. Because not all the men I know put every girls on the potential sexual partner ladder. For example, that married guy I was talking about He is a nice person, really really nice. For example, he helped me many times and all, just out of kindness. But his friendship towards me is platonic. Actually, if a girl ever tries to pick him up, he will get angry at her because he doesn't allow people to disregard the fact that he wears a ring and that he's in love with his wife. So, it's as if there was one ladder with only his wife on it, and one platonic ladder with every other people on it.

That man I am talking about has also a friend who knows a girl (quite pretty) who is a childhood friend of him. A lot of people teased him about it, that they should go out together, but he just keeps replying that she's his friend and everything is platonic from his pov. But hey, as I say above, people can spin things if they want, like saying "he's lying about it", but there are also people who trust him

I don't try to demolish the ladder theory, just that i don't see it as an universal truth. Of course, there are men who fit this theory. Proof is that is why some girls have a homosexual guy among their dear friends Because the girl can talk to him while being sure that there is no sexual tension between them.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Heh... I'll try and bare that in mind. Although I suspect for some guys, the need to have perfect timing is partly a matter of nerves - putting the matter off until you know you're not going to get another shot that good.

Irenicus got a point about what he said. Many men, when they are really in love, tend to freak out. I could also add that No, not all the girl are fans of the casanova-type of men (actually, beside for a fling, I don't know a lot of girls "around me" who see those guys as serious).

Don't think that all girls dislike men who can't hide their weak side in front of them. It can be seen as cute, or just as something natural. You know, my father for example is not a weak guy at all, but I did see him crying just by thinking that something bad could happen to his beloved wife, or children It's not being weak or anything bad, he just loves his wife and children a lot.

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by Narona

The Ladder Theory doesn't apply in every case from my pov. I talked about it with somebody and I was amused as how he spun things. I know a few couples that started with complete platonic friendship (yeah even in France), and they unexpectedly fell in love later over time. But when I said that, he said to me "but that was because the girl put him subconsciously on the first ladder blablabla" If you use that way to explain things, you can spin everything. *I* prefer to trust the people I talk to when they explain how things were and evolved, and not people who think they can know other people better than those people themselves.

Secondly, I could say that some men have two ladders. Because not all the men I know put every girls on the potential sexual partner ladder. For example, that married guy I was talking about He is a nice person, really really nice. For example, he helped me many times and all, just out of kindness. But his friendship towards me is platonic. Actually, if a girl ever tries to pick him up, he will get angry at her because he doesn't allow people to disregard the fact that he wears a ring and that he's in love with his wife. So, it's as if there was one ladder with only his wife on it, and one platonic ladder with every other people on it.

That man I am talking about has also a friend who knows a girl (quite pretty) who is a childhood friend of him. A lot of people teased him about it, that they should go out together, but he just keeps replying that she's his friend and everything is platonic from his pov. But hey, as I say above, people can spin things if they want, like saying "he's lying about it", but there are also people who trust him

I don't try to demolish the ladder theory, just that i don't see it as an universal truth. Of course, there are men who fit this theory. Proof is that is why some girls have a homosexual guy among their dear friends Because the girl can talk to him while being sure that there is no sexual tension between them.

I did find a little truth in the theory. We girls have 2 ladders I wonder how some of us girls really desire a gay close friend. I know I did back in high school along with some other friends of mine. Right now I have probably 5 gay friends who I talk with

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by Narona

The bad boys are worthless

*runs*

Joking aside, from what I have personally seen, to be fair there are some boys who are mistaken as bad boys.

The ones that are not real bad boys, but are categorized by some people as such. They are just a bit antisocial and show an unfriendly character. But if they have some friends, they are nice with them in their own way. And they have no problem to study well, or to get a good job. If you are courageous enough to scratch the surface, you can actually discover that they can be quite nice.

That reminds me of another archetype. The "I want to tame you/parent you and then you are forever mine or something along these lines" type. Doesn't often work out for life long relationships in reality but statistics and feelings do not care for each other anyway.

Maybe too much theory is not good for a relationship. Now lets block out such thoughts.

[Jazzrat]

Men definitely have 2 ladders imo especially once we get to marrying age (oh god, i already 27 this year >.> ). I ll let you guys decide what kinda girl fits into the potential and fling ladder since i was neg repped recently for being a sexist.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Witchburn

I did find a little truth in the theory. We girls have 2 ladders

Made me think about what one of my sis said to me, "that more and more girls act excatly like men", given the ladder theory, does it mean that more and more girls have only one ladder?

I wonder how some of us girls really desire a gay close friend. I know I did back in high school along with some other friends of mine. Right now I have probably 5 gay friends who I talk with

Well, they can be really nice with girls, and very pleasant to talk to xD I admit that talking about men with them can be fun XD

Originally Posted by Jinto

That reminds me of another archetype. The "I want to tame you/parent you and then you are forever mine or something along these lines" type. Doesn't often work out for life long relationships in reality but statistics and feelings do not care for each other anyway.

Maybe too much theory is not good for a relationship. Now lets block out such thoughts.

Tame?

Well, I am too not fond of the men/women who say "you'll be forever mine" to their GF/BF. It may be just me, but it reminds me that I see a difference between those kind of lines when a man is talking to a girl, for example:

A: I want you to be my wife.
B: I want to become your husband.

Am I the only one?

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

Men definitely have 2 ladders imo especially once we get to marrying age (oh god, i already 27 this year >.> ). I ll let you guys decide what kinda girl fits into the potential and fling ladder since i was neg repped recently for being a sexist.

You do mean:

- Potential wife ladder

and

- Fling Ladder

?

Interesting view, but does the man still keep his "fling ladder" active once he's in love with a potential wife?

(I'm curious, for which post did you get neg-repped ?_?)

[Shinoto]

Originally Posted by Witchburn

I did find a little truth in the theory. We girls have 2 ladders I wonder how some of us girls really desire a gay close friend. I know I did back in high school along with some other friends of mine. Right now I have probably 5 gay friends who I talk with

What's this fascination women have with having to have that Gay friend?

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Narona

Secondly, I could say that some men have two ladders. Because not all the men I know put every girls on the potential sexual partner ladder. For example, that married guy I was talking about He is a nice person, really really nice. For example, he helped me many times and all, just out of kindness. But his friendship towards me is platonic. Actually, if a girl ever tries to pick him up, he will get angry at her because he doesn't allow people to disregard the fact that he wears a ring and that he's in love with his wife. So, it's as if there was one ladder with only his wife on it, and one platonic ladder with every other people on it.

That man I am talking about has also a friend who knows a girl (quite pretty) who is a childhood friend of him. A lot of people teased him about it, that they should go out together, but he just keeps replying that she's his friend and everything is platonic from his pov. But hey, as I say above, people can spin things if they want, like saying "he's lying about it", but there are also people who trust him

I'm not going to say he's lying to you, but the way a man approaches sexuality is very "what if" and fantasy oriented (in comparison to a woman). So it may be more that while he can and probably does have the occasional sexual thoughts, he just has a good character and doesn't indulge in them/pay any heed to them.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I'm not going to say he's lying to you, but the way a man approaches sexuality is very "what if" and fantasy oriented (in comparison to a woman). So it may be more that while he can and probably does have the occasional sexual thoughts, he just has a good character and doesn't indulge in them/pay any heed to them.

Imo that is not so much a matter of being nice but a matter of principles. Personally I'ld feel extremely bad if I betrayed a person close to me, because I would not want to be betrayed myself.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Shinoto

What's this fascination women have with having to have that Gay friend?

It's not a fascination. keep in mind that a gay can talk about men from a different point of view than an heterosexual guy. Therefore, they can discuss about men and women from their own pov, which can be interesting.

+ of course, the fact that I know they won't try to hit on me, and won't assume wrong thing whatever I say (some men tend to assume wrong things, so I tend to watch my words)

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

I'm not going to say he's lying to you, but the way a man approaches sexuality is very "what if" and fantasy oriented (in comparison to a woman). So it may be more that while he can and probably does have the occasional sexual thoughts, he just has a good character and doesn't indulge in them/pay any heed to them.

I think there is a difference from what you say. Correct me if I am wrong, but that ladder theory gives me the feeling that any man can be unfaithful since they put women on a "potential sexual partner" (a "I would/will sleep with her if I could/can" kind of though. And I was talking about *that* kind of thoughts (1) ) ladder. Especially if the girl they meet is pretty. So, imo, it's a different thought than "just" thinking that a girl is pretty when you saw/meet one. For me, admitting that a man is good looking doesn't mean that I am sexually excited. But maybe it's different for most men, I don't know since I am a girl.

About girls, I think there are actually some women who do the same as what you describe, that's why I don't see those theores as facts (or maybe it's just that women behaviors changed over time) or at least if we really push things, that exceptions exist for both genders.

But anyway I was talking about the ladder theory and what I understood and wrote above (1). I can't affirm what i said about the friend of that married guy, because I don't know him that well. But about three other men, including Mister Married-man and my own father, I believe them. But of course, you have the right to think otherwise even if you don't know them.

I have a question though, given what you said (if we consider that what you said is true) do you think that all fathers have occasional sexual thoughts about their own (pretty) daughters who are, besides being their daughters, female individuals? Or do you think that something in their brain (for most of them) can prevent them to have such thoughts?

[Fome]

So how come guys don't typically have lesbian friends?