[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Huh, you're right. I'm not a big fan of the ep 2 manga art, so I didn't read the whole thing through. But Yen Press really is only using bold text, not red text. It looks really silly that way. "From now on, WHEN I SPEAK THE TRUTH, I WILL USE BLACK BOLD CAPS." Unconvincing.

I'd been under the impression that the Japanese release uses real red text, but I can't confirm it.

From what I remember
It uses symbols like ~~~~ beside the text, and assume this means RED
And then, something else for blue, gold, etc...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Regarding Erika solving the logic error... I have and have read all 3 volumes of EP8 that have been released here in Japan, but that scene has yet to happen. Volume 3 ends when Ange realizes that "The Book of One Truth" is in the chapel, which happens before Battler and Erika have their logic duel. The back pages of volume 3 also say that volume 4 comes out in December.

So, I'm confused.

Chinese versions. Chapter 19 was already released/leaked over there.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Chinese versions. Chapter 19 was already released/leaked over there.

Even ahead of the official Japanese release?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Even ahead of the official Japanese release?

I assume so yeah. Americans are a week ahead of most weekly series in japan already so I guess the chinese could have access to certain things even faster.

[Drifloon]

Regarding Renall's post...Well, I don't really have any strong feelings on whether Yasu was really Beatrice's child or not (and I doubt Ryukishi really put that much thought into the applicability of the red statements beyond what they're specifically used to prove), but I think that most of what you've said about her there is a good insight into her character irrespective of whether she was or not, really. The angle that she was essentially a pawn who was manipulated into serving as Kinzo's redemption is definitely there even if she actually was his child, and I think you're definitely right in regards to the effect that learning about that had on her sense of self. Her feelings about "lacking a past" would have been present for a large part of her life anyway, considering that she thought herself an orphan, so what you say about Battler's promise giving her a prospect of stability also applies in that case.

I'm a little skeptical that it makes Battler in EP6 any less creepy, though. He was very much presented, at least in the early stages, as being actively angry that the new Beatrice wasn't the Beato that he remembered, and he undoubtedly made her feel like crap about that whether he meant to or not.

[Wanderer]

Topic for discussion:

I think it's a fair assumption that in Prime George intended to propose to Shannon during the conference. Assuming he had his chance to do it, what was Shannon's on-the-spot reply; and what part, if any, did Shannon's answer have in the tragedy?

[Ayu-ayu]

Has anyone noted and/or commented on the fact that the message bottles exclude Ange, even though her falling sick caused her no-show only at the very last minute?

I can kind of rationalize some of the other things to a certain extent, like predicting the typhoon, but it seems to me that if anything, Yasu would have highly anticipated Ange's inclusion in the 1986 visit, particularly after her being one of the factors (along with the loss of Sakutarou, Rosa's abuse and the family's constant denial of a witch that she had personally met) that provoked Maria in 1985 into a rage against her relatives around when she met with Beatrice (probably adding much to Yasu's plot material at this point in particular). Not getting Ange to cooperate and come meet Beatrice must have been a real added blow for Maria after all that. I'm sure after their talks, Yasu would have written her plots to include Ange as well in some capacity.

To me, this along with some of the more awkward-to-predict portions of the tale make me really suspect that the first two bottles were written after the event (partial possible evidence of Yasu-Ikuko). They were not found immediately after the incident, after all.

[Ayu-ayu]

Wanderer, do you read the manga in the original magazine publication? Those chapters are published in magazine serial format before being compiled into tankoban books. Episode 8 in particular is published chapter-by-chapter in GanGan Joker magazine, and probably has a simultaneous (or nearly so) release in Taiwan.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

To me, this along with some of the more awkward-to-predict portions of the tale make me really suspect that the first two bottles were written after the event (partial possible evidence of Yasu-Ikuko). They were not found immediately after the incident, after all.

While Ange's not inclusion is a little bit hard to swallow, you could say she was either written out at the last minute (considering that she's a 6 year old child at that point, not impossible, since her influence would be marginal at best) or something else made it likely for her not to come.

The first message bottle was btw found adrift in the sea directly after the incident on the next morning when the police was searching the waters around Rokkenjima. It was taken up as evidence but not released as information to the public until the fisherman went out into the open with the bottle he found later on.
Also, research on the bottle and the cork apparently made it clear that the bottle was sealed around the time of the incident.

[GuestSpeaker]

I do think that when Ryu made his "Angie missed a lot of conferences as she was often sick" comment he was trying to hand-wave Yasu leaving her out of the stories.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Wanderer, do you read the manga in the original magazine publication? Those chapters are published in magazine serial format before being compiled into tankoban books. Episode 8 in particular is published chapter-by-chapter in GanGan Joker magazine, and probably has a simultaneous (or nearly so) release in Taiwan.

Ah thank you. That explains it.

[Drifloon]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Topic for discussion:

I think it's a fair assumption that in Prime George intended to propose to Shannon during the conference. Assuming he had his chance to do it, what was Shannon's on-the-spot reply; and what part, if any, did Shannon's answer have in the tragedy?

Considering the huge amount of variations we see on that scene, and how consistent her response is throughout all of them, I really can't see that Ryukishi would have intended her real response to be anything else.

Yasu was unable to choose a single fate, but she wouldn't have actively cut off a possibility either, so even if she didn't put the ring on right there, she probably at least agreed to think about it. I can't really see her ever being assertive enough to definitively refuse him.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Even ahead of the official Japanese release?

They're behind actually. On the magazines we're already at chap 21 of Ep 8. On Thumblr someone took pics of the best moments. It's not the whole chapter, just some scenes and I can't read Japanese but Erika tossed many reds about the mystery, some of which Battler countered with red but in the end it seems he couldn't counter his last one and was about to end up falling in the goats' arms/mouths when Beato catched him.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Topic for discussion:

I think it's a fair assumption that in Prime George intended to propose to Shannon during the conference. Assuming he had his chance to do it, what was Shannon's on-the-spot reply; and what part, if any, did Shannon's answer have in the tragedy?

Although George's role in the tragedy is only denied in virtue of pinning the blame on Battler likely if he intended to propose he would have caused troubles for Shannon as this would force her to tell him the truth sooner or later and although Ryukishi said he might have accepted it, if I were in Shannon's place in her place I wouldn't be so sure of it.
After all Umineko said something mysterious was going to happen regardless of Battler's return but it would have been tamer. My guess is that the something mysterious would have been the disappearance of Shannon and possibly of Kanon.
Honestly, although I think she would have liked to marry him, I fear she wouldn't have had the guts to be honest with him and tell him the truth or wait for him to find out.
So probably she would have said yes to him but this wouldn't mean she would have been there when he would leave Rokkenjima.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Has anyone noted and/or commented on the fact that the message bottles exclude Ange, even though her falling sick caused her no-show only at the very last minute?

I can kind of rationalize some of the other things to a certain extent, like predicting the typhoon, but it seems to me that if anything, Yasu would have highly anticipated Ange's inclusion in the 1986 visit, particularly after her being one of the factors (along with the loss of Sakutarou, Rosa's abuse and the family's constant denial of a witch that she had personally met) that provoked Maria in 1985 into a rage against her relatives around when she met with Beatrice (probably adding much to Yasu's plot material at this point in particular). Not getting Ange to cooperate and come meet Beatrice must have been a real added blow for Maria after all that. I'm sure after their talks, Yasu would have written her plots to include Ange as well in some capacity.

To me, this along with some of the more awkward-to-predict portions of the tale make me really suspect that the first two bottles were written after the event (partial possible evidence of Yasu-Ikuko). They were not found immediately after the incident, after all.

The predicted typhon is apparently part of the setting of the Rokkenjima world. The parents complain they usually happen when they've a meeting and suggest the meeting should be moved to another date from now on, though they don't feel up to go and tell this out loud to Kinzo.

Interesting enough it seems in real Japan typhons in that zone aren't so common... but evidently prime is a bit different from real Japan.

As for Ange my feeling was when Yasu hired/bribed the siblings she also demanded they'll let Ange home as Ange had been written out of Marriage sorciere and couldn't be allowed to reach the golden land.

My feeling is that Beato was informed about Ange denying Sakutarou by Maria as it likely happened in Rokkenjima.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Interesting enough it seems in real Japan typhons in that zone aren't so common... but evidently prime is a bit different from real Japan.

Assuming real world standards of typhoon frequency:

It's about 1 a year, or maybe 2 since Rokkenjima is a bit further out than the Japanese mainland.

Typhoon season is a couple of months long. To change the date of the conference to avoid typhoons it would have to be a completely different time of year.

Interestingly enough, there's been, I think, 3 typhoons here in Nagano, Japan, during the last few months (typhoon season). Locals say about 1 a year is average, here.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by haguruma

While Ange's not inclusion is a little bit hard to swallow, you could say she was either written out at the last minute (considering that she's a 6 year old child at that point, not impossible, since her influence would be marginal at best) or something else made it likely for her not to come.

The first message bottle was btw found adrift in the sea directly after the incident on the next morning when the police was searching the waters around Rokkenjima. It was taken up as evidence but not released as information to the public until the fisherman went out into the open with the bottle he found later on.
Also, research on the bottle and the cork apparently made it clear that the bottle was sealed around the time of the incident.

Ah, if that was clarified about the first bottle, then that would remove my doubts there then. I thought I'd remembered it was found later, but I guess that was the second bottle I had recalled, not the first.

I agree that her role in the stories would likely have been minor due to her age, or if Yasu still respected her status as a witch apprentice, then she probably would have just treated her more or less as an "extra Maria". I did think it was also possible that Ange's fragility of health may have made it less likely for her to show up usually.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The predicted typhon is apparently part of the setting of the Rokkenjima world. The parents complain they usually happen when they've a meeting and suggest the meeting should be moved to another date from now on, though they don't feel up to go and tell this out loud to Kinzo.

Interesting enough it seems in real Japan typhons in that zone aren't so common... but evidently prime is a bit different from real Japan.

As for Ange my feeling was when Yasu hired/bribed the siblings she also demanded they'll let Ange home as Ange had been written out of Marriage sorciere and couldn't be allowed to reach the golden land.

My feeling is that Beato was informed about Ange denying Sakutarou by Maria as it likely happened in Rokkenjima.

Yeah, I can understand the expectation of the typhoon. Of course if the typhoon hadn't looked like it was going to come, she could have altered her plans and never released those bottles...but that fragment is outside the catbox.

I'm not sure I could see Yasu influencing anyone significant to keep Ange from coming, but who knows?

I do think that the scenes of Maria asking Beato to revive Sakutarou reflect something that would have actually happened in the prior meeting on Rokkenjima, and be part of what was upsetting Maria during that last meet up (along with Ange's refusal to "play witches" on that trip and thus missing out on being introduced to Beatrice by Maria). Add to this that there was no letter from Battler to Shannon accompanying the ones with news of his return, and many other upsetting things that came together in 1985 when the two met the last time. This was part of the genesis of Yasu's plot, and her promise to Maria to take her with her to the Golden Land (and away from the Black Witch) where everyone could be happy together. Maria's ideas about the occult and such were a big influence on Yasu and as such she can be seen (unintentionally) as a sort of co-author...it's not hard to imagine why Yasu would sign the bottle-messages under her name, besides as a misdirection.

I noticed that the manga (if not the sound novel, I don't recall now) made it quite clear that Maria and Beatrice had their 1985 meeting(s?) at the Kuwadorian...which must have helped make quite an impression on Maria, I would imagine!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

While Ange's not inclusion is a little bit hard to swallow, you could say she was either written out at the last minute (considering that she's a 6 year old child at that point, not impossible, since her influence would be marginal at best) or something else made it likely for her not to come.

It's extremely difficult to believe Ange would be written out of the message bottles as the influence of a character, even a very minor character, would leave holes in the narrative. I think if they were pre-incident it's just a lucky guess that she wasn't coming, as had she been originally included there would be the possibility of Ange ending up a victim. While the message bottles (which we assume to be Legend and Turn) tend not to victimize the children where possible, Jessica and George are both killed in Turn so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Of course it's possible that Battler, Maria, and Ange would've just been "off limits" to the original message bottle author and thus Ange's minor role was scratched, but I think it implausible that she wouldn't have had some impact on the story. So it's easier to just believe that she was either excluded by an educated guess (Ange is often sick and misses, so with a storm coming there's a good chance she'll be left behind) or by some kind of conspiracy to intentionally leave her there with Kyrie and Rudolf. I couldn't weigh in on that one way or the other, as it's a very strange request to make and a stranger one to comply with.

[MysteriousLurkerGuy]

Yasu is exactly the kind of person I can see fervently rewriting half her manuscript the night before in order to account for the disappearance of a minor character. Then again, if Yasu writes anything like Ryukishi, all the murders would have to be put off a few days until the swelling in the hand goes away.

I wonder if Ange receiving a safety-deposit box key in EP4 somehow implicates Rudolf and/or Kyrie as accomplices (being "paid off" in the same manner as Nanjo and Kumasawa's heirs). It's not like she really needs the money. Might also explain how the siblings were tipped off to Kinzo's death, as well as Rudolf's sudden reconciliation with Battler.

[GuestSpeaker]

As for the typhoon, if I remember correctly Jessica said the boats often didn't run in any sort of bad weather, and that was mostly what the family was complaining about with regards to the timing of the meeting. Even if not a full-on typhoon, the family and Yasu might have been able to guess/predict there would be SOME sort of bad weather, and maybe Yasu just upped the drama by making it a typhoon.

For all we know it was just a standard October heavy rain, and in walks Genji with the helpful news that the "boat can't leave in this weather, also the phones are definitely out so don't try them"

Though it is entirely plausible they orchestrated for the boat not to come, Ryu also implied via George that people generally knew a typhoon was scheduled for then.

[jjblue1]

I wonder if the typhoon and Ange's absence in the real world and in the tales are merely two more unlucky coincidences along with Battler's return that year and the parents being out of money.
After all it seems she tossed the bottles in the water because she hoped someone would solve her mistery, not because she believed people would believe that 'a witch did it'.
So in the end it didn't matter if they weren't perfectly fitting with the facts, just that someone could solve them.
By a set of coincidences they are missing Ange (which she probably dind't want to reach the golden land in her stories) and used a typhoon (which is a convenient excuse) to trap anyone on the island as it truly happened, two things that truly happened that day.

Then, due to another set of coincidences (Rokkenjima exploding, Eva surviving and selling Kinzo's library, the bottle being found and released to the public, the tales being recognized not as the writing of Maria who's aknowledged as dead) people assumed they were two possible depictions of what happened that day when they were just what if scenarios.

Wasn't it in Ep 5 that Battler talked of how a strange set of coincidences that seem instead connected might lead people to have the wrong perception of what happened when actually it was all strange coincidences?

It might be a hint to what really happened in Prime. A really odd set of coincidences was judged as something made on purpose because... well, it was such a really odd set of coincidences that accepting it as such seemed too unbelievable for the observers.