Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Terra]

You can hardly expect a student to suddenly turn up in an outdated Knightmare, that is basically just a frame with no weapons, and have built a bomb that could take out Tokyo. The Knightmare itself is no threat against the current models. Plus you'd hardly expect students to fight back really.

As for the Academy, it was only really attackable by air since they'd collasped the ground all around it. Any attack from the ground would be futile because of the disadvantage of being shreaded to pieces before they can make an attack. The Avalon wasn't in Tokyo at the start of the attack on Tokyo. It's not part of the normal defence forces. And to top it off, the person in charge of it atm is a scientist, not a soldier. It was even stated in the episodes that for Llyod to turn up on the front lines is highly unusual. Plus the Avalon is a one of kind airship, that is very vulnerable to the Gawain if it was around due to the shields only being on the bottom of the ship. It was just bad luck that the people in charge of that ship happened to have enough motivation to go to the academy instead of helping where they should really be. Which is helping defend the government HQ. There was no real need for Britannian to attack the academy. It was only attacked for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the war.

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

A security sweep isn't a luxury. While Nina didn't tell anybody about what she was doing, she wasn't being particularly secretive about it either.

A full security sweep is a luxury when you're short of manpower. Notice when the OoBK first descended upon Ashford, they secured their immediate surroundings. As mentioned earlier, the school compound's huge, not to mention the sewage system and basement. Which was pretty much why Nina could construct her Ganymede bomb without any interference.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're making a silly black and white fallacy since it's not an either/or situation at all. The Britannians could have easily defended their HQ with the bulk of their forces and attacked the school with a small detachment. (And that's exactly what they did, since Avalon is part of their military, it's just that the Black Knights got really lucky with who showed up.)

You honestly thought that the Avalon showing up at school was an intricate plan by the Britannian army? No let me refresh your memory, they(Llyod and Cecile) were just there for personal reasons as stated by Terra. Thanks Terra for pointing out that the grounds surrounding the school collasped. And you seem to forget that the Avalon acts independently from the Britannian Army, Cornelia certainly did not give any orders for the Avalon to head to Ashford. As mentioned before, there were no incentives for the Britannian Army to destroy the school, the Avalon's appearance was certainly unexpected and I don't see your arguement making any sense here.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's common sense; one simply doesn't take a detainee (suspected spy) into the most sensitive part of one's HQ.

Once again you're discounting the possibility of Viletta being an informant. Not to mention Ougi was running the base operations and wasn't exactly in the position to run about. So what if Viletta was brought to the heart of the HQ? You think she's gonna go rambo and kill everyone on the spot? She was unarmed for god's sake.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's what I've been saying. And they didn't even make sure that Nanally et. al. were guarded.

It was bad luck here, a chain of events that led to Nunally's abduction. They were guarded, that was before Ougi got shot, Avalon appeared and all hell broke loose.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

No. Lelouch did something foolish that happened to not bite him in the butt too much. Although even that bit's arguable since Nina would have been caught up if he had given such orders.

It all makes sense now that Terra mentioned the surrounding school grounds were collapsed. No Britannian knightmare/vehicle could have infiltrated the school save for a float system ship/knightmare. And Nina wouldnt have been caught either way. All the students were at their respective dormitories and the student council members at their room. No one would have expected a student to be making bombs in a secluded basement.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The difference is that being useless at one task isn't the same thing as being useless overall.

That still doesnt change the meaning of your earlier statement, that was "they were useless as troops." as they failed to secure the school. Not to mention securing the school was a mission given to them, if they fail the mission, they fail as troops. Since you're pretty much confusing me with differences applying in this case, I'd suggest you refrain from calling them useless.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Terra

You can hardly expect a student to suddenly turn up in an outdated Knightmare, that is basically just a frame with no weapons, and have built a bomb that could take out Tokyo. The Knightmare itself is no threat against the current models. Plus you'd hardly expect students to fight back really.

Even if both Lelouch and Kallen didn't already know that the Knightmare Frame was there, it's still something that should have been secured. It doesn't even have to be armed for it to pose as an threat, and an easily neutralized one at that. Even if one weren't expecting the students to fight, it's still wise to treat them with caution.

Originally Posted by Terra

There was no real need for Britannian to attack the academy.

Why not? It was the Black Knight headquarters after all.

Originally Posted by Chudley

A full security sweep is a luxury when you're short of manpower. Notice when the OoBK first descended upon Ashford, they secured their immediate surroundings.

They obviously did a very poor job of doing so. I'm still not sure why you're trying to say that securing the grounds isn't an absolute priority.

Originally Posted by Chudley

You honestly thought that the Avalon showing up at school was an intricate plan by the Britannian army?

No, I just said that it could easily have been, and that the Black Knights got extremely lucky.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Once again you're discounting the possibility of Viletta being an informant. Not to mention Ougi was running the base operations and wasn't exactly in the position to run about. So what if Viletta was brought to the heart of the HQ? You think she's gonna go rambo and kill everyone on the spot? She was unarmed for god's sake.

That's not the point, one just doesn't take prisoners to one's headquarters. This is true in normal situations, and much more critical during a battle. A prisoner doesn't even have to do any damage herself in order to disrupt operations - she might simply have a transmitter of some sort. It's the kind of unnecessary risk that only idiots indulge in.

Originally Posted by Chudley

It was bad luck here, a chain of events that led to Nunally's abduction. They were guarded, that was before Ougi got shot, Avalon appeared and all hell broke loose.

That's not bad luck - it's incompetence.

Originally Posted by Chudley

It all makes sense now that Terra mentioned the surrounding school grounds were collapsed. No Britannian knightmare/vehicle could have infiltrated the school save for a float system ship/knightmare.

Except that that's exactly what they did. You'd think that if there was only danger from a single vector, they'd be able to defend against that possibility. I'm not sure if the ground around the school was collapsed, but if it was, this really only makes the Black Knights look worse.

Originally Posted by Chudley

That still doesnt change the meaning of your earlier statement, that was "they were useless as troops." as they failed to secure the school. Not to mention securing the school was a mission given to them, if they fail the mission, they fail as troops. Since you're pretty much confusing me with differences applying in this case, I'd suggest you refrain from calling them useless.

This is what I posted earlier:
"For example, Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to secure the school as a headquarters was actually quite a good tactic. However, it didn't work out because because his troops were useless."
It's pretty obvious what context I put that in. I'm not sure why you're so confused.

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Even if both Lelouch and Kallen didn't already know that the Knightmare Frame was there, it's still something that should have been secured. It doesn't even have to be armed for it to pose as an threat, and an easily neutralized one at that. Even if one weren't expecting the students to fight, it's still wise to treat them with caution.

You're being irrational here. There was absolutely no need for the outdated Ganymede with no weaponry on it to be secured in the first place. If it could have posed a threat, why was the Ganymede kept in the school grounds right from the beginning? You don't keep weapons in school do you? Besides even if the Ganymede was not present, the situation wouldn't have changed would it? Nina would have still went about constructing the bomb. For your information, the OoBK did take precautions regarding the students (sealing the dormitories, placing guards etc).

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why not? It was the Black Knight headquarters after all.

Wasn't it addressed already? I don't understand why you're still disputing this point. Zero and majority of the OoBk forces were not at the HQ, but on the battlefield. Committing troops here to destroy the OoBK HQ equates to a minor victory at most. However this makes the Britannian HQ more vulnerable and if the OoBK were to take over their HQ, they win the battle and emerge as overall victors.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

They obviously did a very poor job of doing so. I'm still not sure why you're trying to say that securing the grounds isn't an absolute priority.

You totally misinterpreted my earlier statement, on no account did I mention that securing the school grounds was not important. I stated that the OoBK did secure their immdediate surroundings, referring to the area where their operations will be based, not places like the school basement or sewage system. Do not forget that the Black Knights at school have to run the operations and keep an eye on the students as well. Hence conducting a full security sweep here, including the basement and sewage system, is nothing short of a luxury. On the contrary, Nina was hiding in the school basement, hence why no one found her.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

No, I just said that it could easily have been, and that the Black Knights got extremely lucky.

You had the misconception that the Avalon was part of the military, which was proven wrong given it wasn't even in Tokyo in the first place. As stated, the Avalon was not given any orders to launch and the only reason it went to the school was due to Llyod's personal agenda. Black Knights got lucky? In fact it was the exact opposite.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's not the point, one just doesn't take prisoners to one's headquarters. This is true in normal situations, and much more critical during a battle. A prisoner doesn't even have to do any damage herself in order to disrupt operations - she might simply have a transmitter of some sort. It's the kind of unnecessary risk that only idiots indulge in.

In this case, a prisoner is an affirmed enemy who has been captured. Viletta's identity wasn't even ascertained in the first place. Furthurmore, the soldiers would have frisk her for any weapons/communication devices and confirmed that she posed no threat before bringing her to Ougi. What unnecessary risk are you talking about here? Enlighten us please.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's not bad luck - it's incompetence.

Hmm Ougi got shot, incompetence on whose part? He certainly did not expect Viletta to regain her memories at such an untimely period. V.V. appears out of thin air and abducts Nunally, again who was being incompetent here? I doubt anyone could have stopped Nunally's abduction, given that V.V. has supernatural powers.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Except that that's exactly what they did. You'd think that if there was only danger from a single vector, they'd be able to defend against that possibility. I'm not sure if the ground around the school was collapsed, but if it was, this really only makes the Black Knights look worse.

Let me remind you that the Avalon's appearance was totally unexpected and bad luck on the Black Knights part. I'm sure you can figure out the rest yourself.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This is what I posted earlier:
"For example, Lelouch ordering the Black Knights to secure the school as a headquarters was actually quite a good tactic. However, it didn't work out because because his troops were useless."
It's pretty obvious what context I put that in. I'm not sure why you're so confused.

Your statement is confusing because it states that "Zero's tactic didnt work because his troops were useless" without elaborating. Do you understand what I'm saying here? You use the word "useless", yet you fail to justify or even explain how and why his troops were useless.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Chudley

You're being irrational here. There was absolutely no need for the outdated Ganymede with no weaponry on it to be secured in the first place. If it could have posed a threat, why was the Ganymede kept in the school grounds right from the beginning? You don't keep weapons in school do you?

Actually, schools all over the world used to house shooting clubs; so yes, they did use to keep weapons in schools. The question is whether a Knightmare Frame can be used as a weapon. Any idiot could see that it can kill ground troops with ease, so it obviously can be.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Besides even if the Ganymede was not present, the situation wouldn't have changed would it? Nina would have still went about constructing the bomb. For your information, the OoBK did take precautions regarding the students (sealing the dormitories, placing guards etc).

I didn't exactly say that that would have necessarily prevented anything. However, the lack of activity on that front is an obvious sign of incompetence. And my point wasn't whether the Black Knights did anything regarding the students; it's about how badly they screwed up doing so.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Wasn't it addressed already? I don't understand why you're still disputing this point. Zero and majority of the OoBk forces were not at the HQ, but on the battlefield. Committing troops here to destroy the OoBK HQ equates to a minor victory at most. However this makes the Britannian HQ more vulnerable and if the OoBK were to take over their HQ, they win the battle and emerge as overall victors.

The point of attacking an enemy's headquarters isn't to destroy the troops there at all. Instead, it's to disrupt an enemy's command and control, and vastly reduces their ability to respond to new threats and to coordinate attacks of their own. The lack of enemys there only make a headquarters a more valuable target, not a less valuable one. This is really basic military strategy.

Originally Posted by Chudley

You totally misinterpreted my earlier statement, on no account did I mention that securing the school grounds was not important. I stated that the OoBK did secure their immdediate surroundings, referring to the area where their operations will be based, not places like the school basement or sewage system. Do not forget that the Black Knights at school have to run the operations and keep an eye on the students as well. Hence conducting a full security sweep here, including the basement and sewage system, is nothing short of a luxury. On the contrary, Nina was hiding in the school basement, hence why no one found her.

Securing the grounds includes ensuring that there are no internal threats. Without a full security sweep, this isn't possible, so a claim that the latter is a luxury is equivalent to claiming that the former isn't a priority.

Originally Posted by Chudley

You had the misconception that the Avalon was part of the military, which was proven wrong given it wasn't even in Tokyo in the first place. As stated, the Avalon was not given any orders to launch and the only reason it went to the school was due to Llyod's personal agenda. Black Knights got lucky? In fact it was the exact opposite.

What do you think that you're trying to accomplish with this argument? I stated that the Black Knights were lucky that the Britannians didn't send the kind of coordinated attack that Lloyd and Cecille could have represented, and you responded by saying that the Britannians didn't send them to attack.

By the way, while Lloyd and Cecille aren't part of the Britannian regular military, they are a special detachment of it.

Originally Posted by Chudley

In this case, a prisoner is an affirmed enemy who has been captured. Viletta's identity wasn't even ascertained in the first place. Furthurmore, the soldiers would have frisk her for any weapons/communication devices and confirmed that she posed no threat before bringing her to Ougi. What unnecessary risk are you talking about here? Enlighten us please.

Bringing in any prisoners to a sensitive location is an unnessary threat because it's too easy to disrupt operations. Given their inadequacies in other areas, I wouldn't exactly be harping on the Black Knights' throughness at searches. Transmitters and small weapons are extremely easy to hide which is why prisoners are forced to change into different clothing, and their belongings are removed.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Hmm Ougi got shot, incompetence on whose part? He certainly did not expect Viletta to regain her memories at such an untimely period. V.V. appears out of thin air and abducts Nunally, again who was being incompetent here? I doubt anyone could have stopped Nunally's abduction, given that V.V. has supernatural powers.

It's incompetence to run around like headless chickens after something like that happened.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Let me remind you that the Avalon's appearance was totally unexpected and bad luck on the Black Knights part. I'm sure you can figure out the rest yourself.

How's this an excuse? Enemies generally aren't polite enough to tell people in advance that they plan to visit.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Your statement is confusing because it states that "Zero's tactic didnt work because his troops were useless" without elaborating. Do you understand what I'm saying here? You use the word "useless", yet you fail to justify or even explain how and why his troops were useless.

I gave it a very clear context, and all of my examples drew upon the school incident.

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Actually, schools all over the world used to house shooting clubs; so yes, they did use to keep weapons in schools. The question is whether a Knightmare Frame can be used as a weapon. Any idiot could see that it can kill ground troops with ease, so it obviously can be.

Right... the Ganymede poses a threat as it can squish people with ease... forgive me for saying this but what you're saying here is as ridiculous as someone saying a truck is dangerous becuse it can squish people with ease too. The Ganymede at Ashford is a third generation knightmare with no weapons equipped whatsoever, making it essentially a useless piece of junk that is in no condition to make battle. What makes you think it stands a chance against a Burai or even hand-carried guns? Besides students are not supposed to be proficient in piloting knightmares. Hell I'd find it absurb if Lelouch issued orders to secure the Ganymede with the following mindset,"Omg I better secure the Ganymede lest a student pilot it and start flattening my troops.".

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I didn't exactly say that that would have necessarily prevented anything. However, the lack of activity on that front is an obvious sign of incompetence. And my point wasn't whether the Black Knights did anything regarding the students; it's about how badly they screwed up doing so.

Honestly, I'd attribute it to bad luck instead of incompetence on the Black Knights part. Things started going downhill after Ougi got shot (bad luck) leading to the Black Knights leaving their posts etc. As far as I'm concerned, they did everything accordingly regarding the students, that was untill Ougi took a bullet in the stomach.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The point of attacking an enemy's headquarters isn't to destroy the troops there at all. Instead, it's to disrupt an enemy's command and control, and vastly reduces their ability to respond to new threats and to coordinate attacks of their own. The lack of enemys there only make a headquarters a more valuable target, not a less valuable one. This is really basic military strategy.

What you're essentially saying is that destroying an enemy's HQ is a really basic military strategy due to said reasons. What you're discounting here is that the folks in the anime were facing a totally different situation. Basic military strategy? Then why didnt Cornelia employ it? Isnt it supposed to be a basic military strategy that shouldn't trouble her at all, given her experience as a leader? There's only one conclusion. Attacking the OoBK HQ would not have turned the tide of the battle towards them. Your arguement of "basic military strategy" and "disrupt enemy's operations" is therotically correct, but you're being rigid here by assuming that what is true for one situation is true for all.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Securing the grounds includes ensuring that there are no internal threats. Without a full security sweep, this isn't possible, so a claim that the latter is a luxury is equivalent to claiming that the former isn't a priority.

Right, so they should have combed every inch of the school compound in case some whacky student was up to no good eh? Erm not exactly? Securing the immediate school grounds is important, but conducting a full security sweep when you had already sealed the dormitories along with the students and secured the main building? Considering they had other important tasks to do like running base operations and guarding the students, a full security sweep would have been a luxury.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What do you think that you're trying to accomplish with this argument? I stated that the Black Knights were lucky that the Britannians didn't send the kind of coordinated attack that Lloyd and Cecille could have represented, and you responded by saying that the Britannians didn't send them to attack.

By the way, while Lloyd and Cecille aren't part of the Britannian regular military, they are a special detachment of it.

When I said the Britannian military here, I was referring to Cornelia's forces. The Avalon wasn't part of her forces and Cornelia certainly did not have any plans for it. You said the Black Knights got lucky because the Britannians didnt send a coordinated attack? Do you understand that Britannians here refers to Cornelia's forces? Avalon wasn't included in their plans, so was it even supposed to be sent to Ashford in the first place? Hell No. And I certainly did not say "Cornelia's forces didnt send the Avalon to attack.". I said that Llyod acted independently and launched the Avalon, despite no such orders from his superiors. In hindsight, no one from the top sent the Avalon to Ashford and the only reason for its appearance was due to Llyod's personal agenda. Do I need to explain any furthur?

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Bringing in any prisoners to a sensitive location is an unnessary threat because it's too easy to disrupt operations. Given their inadequacies in other areas, I wouldn't exactly be harping on the Black Knights' throughness at searches. Transmitters and small weapons are extremely easy to hide which is why prisoners are forced to change into different clothing, and their belongings are removed.

Let me give you a definition of prisoner from the dictionary. A prisoner is a person who is kept in a prison as a punishment or because they have been captured by an enemy. Didnt I state that Viletta's identiy wasn't ascertained yet? Was she confirmed as an enemy? No. Instead of a prisoner, I'd call her an unidentified person that got apprehended and there was absolutely nothing wrong for the soldiers to bring her to Ougi.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's incompetence to run around like headless chickens after something like that happened.

Well if we were OoBK soldiers and caught wind of such news, I reckon we'll be running around like headless chickens too

Originally Posted by 4Tran

How's this an excuse? Enemies generally aren't polite enough to tell people in advance that they plan to visit.

Except Avalon wasn't supposed to be part of the enemies here?

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I gave it a very clear context, and all of my examples drew upon the school incident.

Well you thought that the Black Knights screwed up big while I thought that luck played a bigger part here. We're both entitled to our own opinions I guess

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Chudley

Hell I'd find it absurb if Lelouch issued orders to secure the Ganymede with the following mindset,"Omg I better secure the Ganymede lest a student pilot it and start flattening my troops.".

Why? That's probably exactly what Nina did to those two guys who first saw her.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Honestly, I'd attribute it to bad luck instead of incompetence on the Black Knights part. Things started going downhill after Ougi got shot (bad luck) leading to the Black Knights leaving their posts etc. As far as I'm concerned, they did everything accordingly regarding the students, that was untill Ougi took a bullet in the stomach.

The measure of competence is best tested by the response to emergencies.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Your arguement of "basic military strategy" and "disrupt enemy's operations" is therotically correct, but you're being rigid here by assuming that what is true for one situation is true for all.

Attacking an enemy headquarters is always a good strategy and there's nothing theoretical about it. Moreover, the important thing is that it's always important to prevent the enemy from employing this strategy. It's quite incompetent to rely on an enemy's benevolence.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Right, so they should have combed every inch of the school compound in case some whacky student was up to no good eh?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Chudley

When I said the Britannian military here, I was referring to Cornelia's forces.

Please note that my last statement was just an aside and it has nothing to do with my argument. There's no problem in doing that, but it's still not a substitute for a real argument. In this case, my position is that the Black Knights should have prepared for a possible Britannian attack, and they utterly failed in doing so.

Here's another one: Cornelia could have ordered Lloyd to attack the school.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Instead of a prisoner, I'd call her an unidentified person that got apprehended and there was absolutely nothing wrong for the soldiers to bring her to Ougi.

Prisoner, detainee, insurgent, suspicious person; the exact label isn't particularly important here. Viletta was still a potential threat and should have been treated accordingly.

Here's another aside: prisoner can also refer someone who's just been captured or apprehended.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Well if we were OoBK soldiers and caught wind of such news, I reckon we'll be running around like headless chickens too

True, but we're not supposed to be a paramilitary organization either. I'm not sure how this reasoning is supposed to apply to the Black Knights though.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Except Avalon wasn't supposed to be part of the enemies here?

Enemies generally aren't polite enough to announce what they are and aren't planning to use in a particular battle either.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Well you thought that the Black Knights screwed up big while I thought that luck played a bigger part here. We're both entitled to our own opinions I guess

The difference is that your opinions don't seem to be supported by the facts, nor do they reflect the military implications of the Black Knights' actions (or lack thereof).

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why? That's probably exactly what Nina did to those two guys who first saw her.

Nope, that's just an assumption on your part. And students aren't supposed to be proficient in piloting knightmares.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The measure of competence is best tested by the response to emergencies.

Your vice-commander just got shot at your HQ and your supreme commander's MIA, this isn't just any mere emergency. I'd liken it to a disaster.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Attacking an enemy headquarters is always a good strategy and there's nothing theoretical about it. Moreover, the important thing is that it's always important to prevent the enemy from employing this strategy. It's quite incompetent to rely on an enemy's benevolence.

Always a good strategy? Then why didn't Cornelia use it? Didn't you suggest that she should have send a small detachment of troops to attack the OoBK HQ while defending her own HQ? Cornelia did not employ this strategy because 1) They were severely outnumbered and on the defensive, 2) Objective of the battle was to hold or push back the OoBK while waiting for reinforcements and 3) They win either by waiting out for the reinforcements or by getting Zero. Is the situation clear to you now? Attacking an enemy HQ isn't always a good strategy, good leaders analyze situations and act accordingly instead of going by the book (which was what Cornelia did in this case).

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Yes.

Erm did you read the rest of my point? Seems to me that you only read the first sentence.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Please note that my last statement was just an aside and it has nothing to do with my argument. There's no problem in doing that, but it's still not a substitute for a real argument. In this case, my position is that the Black Knights should have prepared for a possible Britannian attack, and they utterly failed in doing so.

Here's another one: Cornelia could have ordered Lloyd to attack the school.

They utterly failed to do so? Didnt Terra mention the collapsing of the surrounding grounds? And we all knew Cornelia didnt order Lloyd to attack the school, given the Avalon wasn't even at Tokyo.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Prisoner, detainee, insurgent, suspicious person; the exact label isn't particularly important here. Viletta was still a potential threat and should have been treated accordingly.

Who says it isn't? Prisoner=enemy that got captured. If Viletta was ascertained to be an enemy, the soldiers would not have hesitated to gun her down. And what do you mean she was still a potential threat? Didnt the soldiers had the situation under control?

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Here's another aside: prisoner can also refer someone who's just been captured or apprehended.

A prisoner isn't just someone, but a confirmed enemy.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

True, but we're not supposed to be a paramilitary organization either. I'm not sure how this reasoning is supposed to apply to the Black Knights though.

Sure it does, when a disaster of this scale occurs. I still stand firmly by my point, anyone would have started panicking if they heard that their vice-commander got shot and their supreme commander was missing.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Enemies generally aren't polite enough to announce what they are and aren't planning to use in a particular battle either.

As I had mentioned earlier, enemies here refers to Cornelia's forces. Avalon wasn't supposed to be part of it and thus neither sides had any plans for it. Your arguement would have made sense if the Avalon was anywhere near the Tokyo settlement, which obviously wasn't the case.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The difference is that your opinions don't seem to be supported by the facts, nor do they reflect the military implications of the Black Knights' actions (or lack thereof).

What're you trying to imply here? I clearly gave an overview of how luck played a big part and the implications, which resulted in a chain of events leading to the OoBK facing imminent defeat. On the contrary, your opinions are supported by highly questionable points drew upon one incident.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Chudley

Nope, that's just an assumption on your part. And students aren't supposed to be proficient in piloting knightmares.

That doesn't really matter if it's almost immune to small arms fire. It stands to reason that Nina took those Black Knights out; otherwise they'd have reported in, and her grand entry wouldn't have been a total surprise.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Your vice-commander just got shot at your HQ and your supreme commander's MIA, this isn't just any mere emergency. I'd liken it to a disaster.

It was an emergency; it's their response to it that makes it into a disaster.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Always a good strategy? Then why didn't Cornelia use it? Didn't you suggest that she should have send a small detachment of troops to attack the OoBK HQ while defending her own HQ?

When did I ever say that Cornelia was a great strategist?

Seriously though, do you truly know what the purpose of a headquarters is?

Originally Posted by Chudley

Erm did you read the rest of my point? Seems to me that you only read the first sentence.

That was the only sentence that made sense.

Originally Posted by Chudley

They utterly failed to do so? Didnt Terra mention the collapsing of the surrounding grounds? And we all knew Cornelia didnt order Lloyd to attack the school, given the Avalon wasn't even at Tokyo.

Not even knowing that the Avalon was on its way until it showed up indicates how much of a failure their security measures were.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Who says it isn't? Prisoner=enemy that got captured. If Viletta was ascertained to be an enemy, the soldiers would not have hesitated to gun her down. And what do you mean she was still a potential threat? Didnt the soldiers had the situation under control?

A prisoner isn't just someone, but a confirmed enemy.

In most situations, Viletta wouldn't be a threat as long as she was unarmed; however that's because there's very little potential harm an unarmed prisoner can cause. Change the location of the prisoner, and this potential can increase dramatically. Bringing her to the center of their operations pretty much maximized this potential.

By the way, you're incorrect about the definition of a prisoner. Anyone under restraint can be a prisoner, including non-enemies.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Sure it does, when a disaster of this scale occurs. I still stand firmly by my point, anyone would have started panicking if they heard that their vice-commander got shot and their supreme commander was missing.

Why? It's not as if they were under attack (yet). Commanders die in (and out of) battle, or are put out of commission all the time. The difference between good troops and bad ones is that the good ones don't panic.

Originally Posted by Chudley

As I had mentioned earlier, enemies here refers to Cornelia's forces. Avalon wasn't supposed to be part of it and thus neither sides had any plans for it. Your arguement would have made sense if the Avalon was anywhere near the Tokyo settlement, which obviously wasn't the case.

So? What difference is this supposed to make?

Originally Posted by Chudley

What're you trying to imply here? I clearly gave an overview of how luck played a big part and the implications, which resulted in a chain of events leading to the OoBK facing imminent defeat. On the contrary, your opinions are supported by highly questionable points drew upon one incident.

I'm saying that luck is irrelevant in this particular case. The competence of the Black Knights is determined entirely by their actions; and the only factor that luck plays is in how easily this competence can be ascertained. For example, their defenses around the school were atrocious, and we may not have known about it if the Avalon didn't show up. However, even if it didn't show up, their defenses would still have been atrocious; we simply wouldn't be able to tell for sure.

If you think that my points are so questionable then I'm sure you'll find it easy to demonstrate why.

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That doesn't really matter if it's almost immune to small arms fire. It stands to reason that Nina took those Black Knights out; otherwise they'd have reported in, and her grand entry wouldn't have been a total surprise.

All these are just assumptions on your part. For all we know, the Ganymede could have been on an elevated platform all the while. You're thinking too much about it, the Ganymede itself clearly posed no threat to the Black Knights and securing it was unnecessary.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It was an emergency; it's their response to it that makes it into a disaster.

When you're in the middle of a war and both indispensable commanders are out of the picture, its nothing short of a disaster. With no one to lead them, that kind of response was hardly a surprise.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

When did I ever say that Cornelia was a great strategist?

Seriously though, do you truly know what the purpose of a headquarters is?

Hmm so you're saying that your suggestion would have benefited the Britannians better? If not for Cornelia's strategy, Todo and the rest would have steamrolled the Britannian HQ. Besides have you forgotten that the Britannians got surrounded 360 and there was no way they could send a small detachment to attack the OoBK HQ. Please watch ep 24 and 25 again before you come to the conclusion that a "basic military strategy" being employed in every situation is a given.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That was the only sentence that made sense.

If you had linked the sentences together, they would have made more sense. I gave the reasons as to why a full security sweep was not viable and you apparently did not absorb it.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Not even knowing that the Avalon was on its way until it showed up indicates how much of a failure their security measures were.

Do you understand that the collasping of the grounds itself is a security measure against Britannian attacks? It has been addressed over and over again that the Avalon is not part of Cornelia's forces, not just the OoBk, even the Britannians did not know that Avalon was on its way. It was in no way an intricate plan, but rather good luck for the Britannians and plain misfortune for the OoBK

Originally Posted by 4Tran

In most situations, Viletta wouldn't be a threat as long as she was unarmed; however that's because there's very little potential harm an unarmed prisoner can cause. Change the location of the prisoner, and this potential can increase dramatically. Bringing her to the center of their operations pretty much maximized this potential.

Not only was she unarmed, she was under the watch of 2 armed soldiers. It doesnt matter where the location was, Viletta aint no Chuck Norris.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

By the way, you're incorrect about the definition of a prisoner. Anyone under restraint can be a prisoner, including non-enemies.

Since you're pretty much disputing the definition of a prisoner from the dictionary, I'll rest my case.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why? It's not as if they were under attack (yet). Commanders die in (and out of) battle, or are put out of commission all the time. The difference between good troops and bad ones is that the good ones don't panic.

What you're saying is that there's only cause to panic when one is under attack? This is a friggin war man, people are fighting upfront and if both commanders are out of the picture, who's going to lead them? Troops lose morale when this happens, which was why Cornelia told Suzaku to keep mum about her injuries. Let me tell you what troops, regardless whether you deem them good or bad, usually do when their indispensable leaders are put out of commission. They f**king run for their lives

Originally Posted by 4Tran

So? What difference is this supposed to make?

Are you feigning ignorance here ? Avalon is a bid bad float system ship that can hardly be missed if it was anywhere near the Tokyo settlement, especially since Zero has the Gawain and its aerial capabilities. Not to mention the Avalon would have been expected to defend the Britannian HQ, which was under heavy enemy fire.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm saying that luck is irrelevant in this particular case. The competence of the Black Knights is determined entirely by their actions; and the only factor that luck plays is in how easily this competence can be ascertained. For example, their defenses around the school were atrocious, and we may not have known about it if the Avalon didn't show up. However, even if it didn't show up, their defenses would still have been atrocious; we simply wouldn't be able to tell for sure.

And I'm saying it isn't. The Black Knights acted according to plan, executed given orders and everything went smoothly, that was untill Ougi got friggin shot. I dont think I have to illustrate what happened after that. Your reference to the atrocious defenses around the school serves as a poor example to justify your point. The collasped grounds surrounding the school served as a deterrence to ground troops and the fact that there were Burais stationed there proves that appropriate measures had been taken. As for the Avalon, I'm sure I don't have to explan again.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If you think that my points are so questionable then I'm sure you'll find it easy to demonstrate why.

I've been illustrating my points that challenge yours posts after posts, thereby demonstrating my opinion. Were you half-asleep while browsing throught the posts?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Chudley

All these are just assumptions on your part.

True, but they're also extremely reasonable ones.

Originally Posted by Chudley

For all we know, the Ganymede could have been on an elevated platform all the while. You're thinking too much about it, the Ganymede itself clearly posed no threat to the Black Knights and securing it was unnecessary.

Nonsense. Trying to equate "we haven't seen it kill anyone onscreen (yet)" isn't even close to "clearly posed no threat".If the Black Knights could have reported in, they would have. They're bad, but they're not that bad.

Originally Posted by Chudley

When you're in the middle of a war and both indispensable commanders are out of the picture, its nothing short of a disaster. With no one to lead them, that kind of response was hardly a surprise.

What you're saying is that there's only cause to panic when one is under attack? This is a friggin war man, people are fighting upfront and if both commanders are out of the picture, who's going to lead them? Troops lose morale when this happens, which was why Cornelia told Suzaku to keep mum about her injuries. Let me tell you what troops, regardless whether you deem them good or bad, usually do when their indispensable leaders are put out of commission. They f**king run for their lives

Nope. You've got a lot to learn about military history.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Hmm so you're saying that your suggestion would have benefited the Britannians better?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Chudley

I gave the reasons as to why a full security sweep was not viable and you apparently did not absorb it.

You gave reasons, but they didn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Do you understand that the collasping of the grounds itself is a security measure against Britannian attacks?

It was obviously insufficient, so my points stand.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Not only was she unarmed, she was under the watch of 2 armed soldiers. It doesnt matter where the location was, Viletta aint no Chuck Norris.

So what? She wouldn't have had to overpower her guards to disrupt their operations.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Are you feigning ignorance here ? Avalon is a bid bad float system ship that can hardly be missed if it was anywhere near the Tokyo settlement, especially since Zero has the Gawain and its aerial capabilities. Not to mention the Avalon would have been expected to defend the Britannian HQ, which was under heavy enemy fire.

My point is the fact that they didn't the Avalon to attack is absolutely no excuse for failing to protect their perimeter. In fact, it speaks more to their incompetence.

Originally Posted by Chudley

And I'm saying it isn't. The Black Knights acted according to plan, executed given orders and everything went smoothly, that was untill Ougi got friggin shot.

Actually they didn't do that properly either. Most of their mistakes were made before he got shot.

Originally Posted by Chudley

I've been illustrating my points that challenge yours posts after posts, thereby demonstrating my opinion. Were you half-asleep while browsing throught the posts?

Your arguments to date haven't been particularly good, and I may take your opinions more seriously if you start making better ones. By the way, do you really want me to start pointing out all of the fallacies you've been committing?

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Nonsense. Trying to equate "we haven't seen it kill anyone onscreen (yet)" isn't even close to "clearly posed no threat".If the Black Knights could have reported in, they would have. They're bad, but they're not that bad.

Right, and you assumed they got squished otherwise they should have reported in? Dude Ougi got shot, Zero left the battle and you're telling me they should be worrying about a Ganymede?

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Nope. You've got a lot to learn about military history.


Yes.

I read this statement off a forum the other day and thought that it really applied well here. "When you enter the world of anime, you need to suspend the disbelief. You can't really apply realism to things in anime.". Obviously, you're incorporating hell lot of realism here and you'd do better otherwise.

Regarding the strategy you suggested, have you rewatched ep 24? Cornelia's forces were surrounded up down left right hello? They were obviously in no position to send detachments anywhere -_-''

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You gave reasons, but they didn't make any sense.

I'd honestly appreciate it if you point out why instead of giving one-liners now and then.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It was obviously insufficient, so my points stand.

Due to Avalon's appearance? I rest my case here as well.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

So what? She wouldn't have had to overpower her guards to disrupt their operations.

You sure have one hell of an imagination, you reckon she'll pull a James Bond on us? She was most probably frisked, under the watch of 2 armed guards and her transition to Ougi's care went smoothly without disrupting any operations whatsoever. Once again you're thinking too much here.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

My point is the fact that they didn't the Avalon to attack is absolutely no excuse for failing to protect their perimeter. In fact, it speaks more to their incompetence.

How many float system ships are there in existence in CG? I believe Avalon is the only one and the fact that it belongs to the special dispatch team, which in turn falls under the wings of Schneizel, led Zero to discount the possibility of a float system ship appearing in the frontlines. Besides, I'd really like to hear what you would have done if you were Zero and knew about Avalon's imminent appearance at school.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Actually they didn't do that properly either. Most of their mistakes were made before he got shot.

The situation started spiralling out of control after Ougi got shot. I believe you're talking about "mistakes" like how the soldiers shouldn't have brought Viletta to Ougi etc. If these qualify as mistakes to you, I've got nothing to say here.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Your arguments to date haven't been particularly good, and I may take your opinions more seriously if you start making better ones. By the way, do you really want me to start pointing out all of the fallacies you've been committing?

That's exactly how I feel on this end. Except I've been pointing out your misconceptions and mistakes while you (apparently) haven't? Shouldn't you have addressed the fallacies I was committing then, instead of doing so after we're so far into this discussion? Well no one's stopping you, so good luck browsing through dozens of posts while digging them out

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Chudley

Right, and you assumed they got squished otherwise they should have reported in? Dude Ougi got shot, Zero left the battle and you're telling me they should be worrying about a Ganymede?

Yes, soldiers, even paramilitary ones are supposed to report what they find. Said finding's importance in the greater scheme of things is irrelevant to this task. You've offered no alternate explanation why the Ganymede wasn't worth reporting.

Originally Posted by Chudley

I read this statement off a forum the other day and thought that it really applied well here. "When you enter the world of anime, you need to suspend the disbelief. You can't really apply realism to things in anime.". Obviously, you're incorporating hell lot of realism here and you'd do better otherwise.

Unsupported claim. Why can't we apply common sense and real-world parallel to anime? That's almost an appeal to stupidity. That you resort to "But it's not realistic!" arguments when you've got nothing better to go on?

And by going on about stuff like "that kind of response was hardly a surprise" and "Let me tell you what troops, regardless whether you deem them good or bad, usually do", aren't you trying to use "realism" to justify your arguments? Isn't this hypocrisy?

Originally Posted by Chudley

Regarding the strategy you suggested, have you rewatched ep 24? Cornelia's forces were surrounded up down left right hello? They were obviously in no position to send detachments anywhere -_-''

I know. That's why I never said that she was a great strategist.

Originally Posted by Chudley

I'd honestly appreciate it if you point out why instead of giving one-liners now and then.

Sure, although it looks awfully pointless:

"I stated that the OoBK did secure their immdediate surroundings, referring to the area where their operations will be based, not places like the school basement or sewage system."
-Stating something is very different from showing that it is so. In what way did the Black Knights perform more than a cursory job of it? You've also done nothing to justify why this was a good idea which is why I never bothered to address it. Heck, you've never even explained how the Black Knights are short on manpower. Was there a line to that effect in the show?

"Do not forget that the Black Knights at school have to run the operations and keep an eye on the students as well."
-Non sequitur. Securing the grounds was the priority. Everything else is sort of pointless if you fail at such a basic task. Besides, as I've pointed out many times, it's not as if they even got these other "operations" right.

"Hence conducting a full security sweep here, including the basement and sewage system, is nothing short of a luxury."
-Unsupported claim. There's no need to address it.

"On the contrary, Nina was hiding in the school basement, hence why no one found her."
-Unsupported claim. Show where anyone was even looking in the first place. Didn't you claim earlier that the Black Knights had other things to do instead?

Originally Posted by Chudley

You had the misconception that the Avalon was part of the military, which was proven wrong given it wasn't even in Tokyo in the first place. As stated, the Avalon was not given any orders to launch and the only reason it went to the school was due to Llyod's personal agenda. Black Knights got lucky? In fact it was the exact opposite.

Prove it. Show how the Avalon is a civilian unit, and how this is somehow relevant to the discussion.
Context, context, context. Please pay attention to the context of my posts: the Black Knights were lucky in that somebody worse wasn't sent against them, or that Lloyd hadn't been given orders to level the place.

By the way I never claimed that Lloyd was ordered to the school, so why are you bringing up this strawman (again and again and again).

Originally Posted by Chudley

In this case, a prisoner is an affirmed enemy who has been captured.

Your dictionary is broken; get a different one.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Furthurmore, the soldiers would have frisk her for any weapons/communication devices and confirmed that she posed no threat before bringing her to Ougi.

So what? Did you forget why it's important to force a prisoner to change their clothing and to confiscate all their belongings?

Originally Posted by Chudley

What unnecessary risk are you talking about here?

I notice that you didn't manage to explain what the point of a headquarters is. This fact should point to why having any outsiders within during operations is automatically a threat.

Originally Posted by Chudley

Hmm Ougi got shot, incompetence on whose part? He certainly did not expect Viletta to regain her memories at such an untimely period. V.V. appears out of thin air and abducts Nunally, again who was being incompetent here? I doubt anyone could have stopped Nunally's abduction, given that V.V. has supernatural powers.

Pay attention, it's that context thing again. The incompetence is what separates being able to recover from a bad situation and exascerbating it.
The guards who vacated the room would be incompetent in the case of Nunally and her friends. It's the part about letting them get away that's worse than Nunally vanishing.

Originally Posted by Chudley

The situation started spiralling out of control after Ougi got shot. I believe you're talking about "mistakes" like how the soldiers shouldn't have brought Viletta to Ougi etc. If these qualify as mistakes to you, I've got nothing to say here.

Except for:
1. Not doing a proper security sweep.
2. Not securing their perimeter.
3. Not setting up early warning systems.
4. Not treating prisoners properly.

Originally Posted by Chudley

That's exactly how I feel on this end. Except I've been pointing out your misconceptions and mistakes while you (apparently) haven't? Shouldn't you have addressed the fallacies I was committing then, instead of doing so after we're so far into this discussion? Well no one's stopping you, so good luck browsing through dozens of posts while digging them out

I didn't really feel like listing them all then. Besides, it's not particularly nice, so I (sometimes) like to get permission before I start. I'll do so starting with your latest post.

And seriously, you don't seem to know very much about the things that you're trying to argue about. BSing about is fine if your opponent is equally ignorant, but those arguments looks awfully weak when this isn't the case.

[Terra]

Part of the problem I'm having with your answers 4Tran is that you're treating the Black Knights as a fully trained military unit. They aren't. And that's pretty clear a lot of the time, so expecting military responses from them is a bit much. I'd expect it from the members who were Japanese military before Britannia took control, but they're all stuck on the front lines. The rest are in way over what they're used to and so won't react as well to the situation. The fact they got where they got to is from Zero. They don't have the brains or experience to be able to have pulled this off.

Besides, to make proper sense of things you need to apply CG world realism, not ours since they do differ.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Terra

Part of the problem I'm having with your answers 4Tran is that you're treating the Black Knights as a fully trained military unit. They aren't. And that's pretty clear a lot of the time, so expecting military responses from them is a bit much. I'd expect it from the members who were Japanese military before Britannia took control, but they're all stuck on the front lines. The rest are in way over what they're used to and so won't react as well to the situation. The fact they got where they got to is from Zero. They don't have the brains or experience to be able to have pulled this off.

That is and isn't entirely true. While paramilitary personnel should be judged with a little leeway, their relative level of competence is determined impartially. When we say that the Iraqi Army performed extremely poorly; at that point, we're not really looking for reasons why that is so. Likewise, with the Black Knights, their performance at the school was terrible. If you're looking for a reason, then it can be boiled down to a lack of training, cohesion, discipline, morale, or whatever. However, I'm not particularly interested in that part at this point.

Originally Posted by Terra

Besides, to make proper sense of things you need to apply CG world realism, not ours since they do differ.

The Code Geass world and the real world work much the same way. While there are differences in technology and history and the like, the characters themselves and their organizations can still be related to in familiar terms. It's only at the points where the two differ do we have to take such differences into account.

[Deathwing]

... so any info on the 2nd season yet?

[Destinyblade]

Originally Posted by Deathwing

... so any info on the 2nd season yet?

Unfortunately, no; I think it's pretty much certain that Geass will not be airing this upcoming Fall season. With the new Gundam series premiering this October, Sunrise probably didn't want the two shows to go against each other.

Since Gundam 00 is going to be split up into two seasons, I'd say that Geass S2 is likely to air in Spring '08.

[Chudley]

Hey sorry for the late reply was on vacation. Hmm 4Tran I cbf responding to any more of your uber long posts, doesn't look like its gonna end anytime soon so I'd give it a rest. As mentioned before you're entitled to your opinions and so am I.

Originally Posted by Deathwing

... so any info on the 2nd season yet?

Yea I reckon CG S2's gonna air in 2008, like what Destinyblade said. With an upcoming Gundam series this October and Shakugan no Shana 2 replacing Darker than Black's timeslot (which was CG's prev timeslot), I'd say best bet is '08

[Jeffry2009]

I'm back! I told you they won't be airing this fall. I was Right!(as i mentioned earlier, despite the whole controversy is going on between gundam 00 and code geass,winner - gundam 00 will be aired this fall.)

2008 there will be long wait for us.

Code Geass will continue

2008

[Jeffry2009]

Originally Posted by Destinyblade

Unfortunately, no; I think it's pretty much certain that Geass will not be airing this upcoming Fall season. With the new Gundam series premiering this October, Sunrise probably didn't want the two shows to go against each other.

Since Gundam 00 is going to be split up into two seasons, I'd say that Geass S2 is likely to air in Spring '08.

Phew! Talked about rivalries and controversies as i post it & mentioned it last time. (Hint: Did guys see my tag that i posted early august after 24 & 25 ends?)