2011-10-03, 13:18 | Link #1282 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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- The government already know how to "control" Furukimono, but they have trouble controlling "special ones" such as Saya. From the government's perspective, a brainwashed superwarrior is desirable. That's the point of the experiment. - Fumito sees a history of Furukomono devouring humans unrestrained --> covenant --> government craving Furukimono power for their own ends. Thinks this won't work. - No good solution. Projecting hope on Saya, by subverting the experiment (as envisioned by the government) and showing her what humans are like: both from within and from without. - Fumito does want a Saya who can kill humans; as a sort of balancing factor between human hubris and furukimono voracity. I think Fumito might want a guardian of the covenant. An independent moral agency, opposing both sides. - He definitely expects to be killed by Saya ("not time for that yet"). I get strong vibes of a fanatic idealist from Fumito. He's not a sadist. His callousness is probably a function of holding overwhelming terror at bay. Apparantly, both Blood-C and Blood+ relate to Blood - The Last Vampire, but in different ways. Both shows have a common ancestor, but that's their only relation. (I haven't seen the original film.) |
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2011-10-03, 13:35 | Link #1284 | |
Senior Member
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What's the best way to refer to her, and to differentiate between her and the Saya of the first 11 episodes of Blood-C?
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2011-10-03, 18:21 | Link #1287 | |
Waiting for more taiyuki!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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I think that this Saya is different from all the Saya's.
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2011-10-04, 01:01 | Link #1290 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
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This Saya never said she wanted to eat humans either. But Saya in TLV also wanted to be able to kill humans. Fumito's the one who teased her with that "if you can kill humans someday, I will give you the version with human flesh". Not enough to conclude that she wants to eat humans - only enough to infer that she does want to be able to kill them when they piss her off for instance.
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2011-10-04, 07:57 | Link #1291 | ||
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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At any rate, she is clearly not Saya from Blood+. Quote:
It's common for people to desire what they can never have, and since he's aware Saya is unable to kill humans - he came she must be dying to do it. Another thing that leads me to believe Saya is different from what Fumito imagine is what the dog said at the end of the series. He claims he has granted Saya's wish to remain herself, if that's true then that means the current Saya is the same as the old Saya. She actually hasn't changed.
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2011-10-04, 09:39 | Link #1292 | |
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I see how you get here. You're looking at the Fumito's actions from ultimate purposes, in terms of how to resolve the conflicting relationship between humans and furukimonos, between the people who want to use furukimonos as weapons and furuimonos who want to eat humans. Fine. That works. One problem is that the covenant is not a fair deal or a suitable resolution from the human side, given that the deal enshrines a continued if lower consumption of people. As it stands, the covenant amounts to a protection racket, where you pay a little bit regularly, so that they don't take everything all at once. I don't see Saya buying into such a deal. A better goal is the one Saya Kisaragi articulates, which is to protect everyone, so that no one is eaten and no one is used as a weapon. I think that's what you're getting at anyway, when you think of Fumito envisaging Saya as a "guardian." You are thinking of Saya not as a mob enforcer, but as a policeman, who keeps the peace by preventing either side from predating on the other. So maybe that's Fumito's purpose. Saya might take this role, although at current moment she seems dedicated to the very particular and personal goal of revenging herself upon Fumito. What about Fumito? How far does he really fit your hypothesis? --He unleashes the killer bunny upon his crew of extras, allows his monster guards to machine-gun the extras, and otherwise takes a direct hand in the murder of hundreds of helpless people. The lovely scene where Fumito is fleeing the town in a jeep which is running its windshield wipers to keep off the human blood and a small boy bangs on the window pleading for help only to be ignored would seem expressly designed to put him well past the moral event horizon. But I get that all this can be contextualized as part of Fumito's master plan, to get Saya to hate him or whatever it is the next step in his plan requires. So, fine. --He is contemptuous of Saya's own concern for the town's populace: "Why make that face? / Humans don't matter to you. / You aren't like them..." He doesn't--apparently--seem to think of her as a moral agent, but contrarily as someone who should be indifferent to humanity. He suggests that she's returned to what she was before the brainwashing, and that seems to mean for him a predator. Now, this may all be acting again, but the way he apparently thinks about Saya now doesn't seem to fit your thesis. --He does his level best to kill Saya, especially when he unleashes Tadayoshi in his full vampire form to fight her. Recall that Tadayoshi had previously been able to capture Saya. So Fumito would have every reasonable expectation that Tadayoshi was going to kill Saya. He doesn't seem to have future plans for her. Perhaps this is Fumito's desperate gamble that Saya will rise to the occasion, but that is very dicey, don't you think? Hmm.... After all this, we have come back to your original point about characterization against plot. I can now appreciate on a deeper level your preference for the former. In a story defined by narrative, in the sense of a predetermined conclusion, Fumito can be anyone and do anything, and yet still be working toward that ending. Character is just a mask, or one mask after another. But if character is just a game, that starts to be deeply unsatisfying. This dissatisfaction extends to the narrative as well. Can we honestly speak of narrative structure if anything--including the gruesome deaths of hundreds of ordinary people--can be relativized by a happy ending? Finally one wants something real, and character is it. So. You were right in the first place. But I think I was right too. If your thesis is correct, then from the point of view of either narrative or character, Blood-C is merely a very brilliant but finally unsatisfying teleological game. For the reasons you've pointed out earlier, the show doesn't really work in literary terms. The anime only becomes interesting if we consider the game as a reflection on us or on anime or whatever, that is, as a exercise in philosophy. If I was going to pursue that line of thought, I would probably want to talk about the show's distinctive violence, and the responses to it among the posters here. But I think by this point I've exhausted everyone's patience. Perhaps we can save that discussion for when the movie comes out. |
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2011-10-04, 13:22 | Link #1293 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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The higher-ups want Furukimono as weapons. Someone has to work with them. Either you're a sociopath from the get-go, or that sort of job comes a distinct job. You see on a regular basis what they can do, and it's bothersome. But, you know, your superiors aren't really going to let you out of that job, are they? If you don't control them you succumb to them. But you're the guy working in a lab, and you're aware that accidents will happen. And what then? You'll have to build up a front of casual calm in the face of (a) sheer terror, and (b) constantly violated compassion. And what does the show tell you about putting on an act and getting used to it? Next on line is that you have to integrate your behaviour with your morals. If you've been a basically decent guy, so far, what are you going to do? Sacking people is necessary. Number one rationalisation. But necessary for what? What if the experiments spin out of control, and the Furukimono decide to rescind on their deal? Or what about a Furukimono arms race? So you decide to stop the project, and you find Saya. You go on with a plan. Maybe it's not even to stop the project, though. Maybe Saya's just the wild card? All the people in the project? "Necessary" sacrifices, but not because of Saya, where "necessary" is a rationalisation for having sacced too many already and for going on doing that. Maybe he's also a bit drunk on power? So a decided, "no" to the "good guy". He's a fanatic, and probably too far gone for atonement. Quote:
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And what does that mean to Saya? A loss? An embarrassment? Quote:
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2011-10-05, 00:34 | Link #1294 | |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Here's a shocker that seriously makes me question the sanity of the Japanese government.
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2011-10-05, 00:57 | Link #1296 | |
Hiding Under Your Bed
Join Date: May 2008
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Obviously, the Japanese government thinks something filled with gore like Blood C will go over well with international audiences. I'm not sure they're wrong. It certainly fits the stereotype of western audiences. I mean, I thought it was stupid, and bad, and yet I had a huge grin on my face watching this thing. I imagine the movie will be full of hacking and slashing. I'm sure it has potential to be a modest success internationally. I'll be watching it, for sure, if only to see if they can top the bunny-blender scene. The series is already a strong shoe-in for that disc you plop in your player when your buddies come over and you pull out some beers and laugh your ass off at how stupid it is.
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2011-10-05, 03:57 | Link #1298 | |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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So perhaps the way Saya acts is now changed, but she didn't change "fundamentally" as Fumito was hoping to.
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2011-10-05, 04:44 | Link #1299 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: United States of America
Age: 32
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You talk as though TLV wasn't highly pandered by mainstream western critics. Also, the movie's not out yet, so don't be pretentious enough to assume it'd be horrible please. There are already enough people that disagree with you on that this show itself was bad so you are certainly going overboard when you rate stuff that's nowhere near even done yet.
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2011-10-05, 08:13 | Link #1300 | |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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The fact is "gore and schoolgirls" ARE the main negative stereotypes of anime. That's not a matter of opinion, and the entire Blood series plays into those stereotypes. Actually more likely a good argument could be made that TLV (and Ninja Scroll) was one of the primary reasons those stereotypes were created in the first place.
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action, blood, clamp, miko, production i.g. |
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