Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I honestly think that over the last few years fans have gone from considering Kyoto an exciting new studio to a rock solid but ultimately somewhat staid studio.

For me it's that fans have gone to treating them like Studio Jesus that is completely infallible to treating them like any other studio and acknowledging where they actually fit in in the grand scheme of the anime industry and where there is room for improvement. Rather people have come to actually expect something out of them in return for their praise and attention, which seemed to flow unconditionally just a few years ago.

The continual stream of cute girls doing cute things shows may have had something to do with providing the shock that woke a fanbase up.

edit: Though I've just learned today that Nichijou is apparently now regarded as some hidden gem masterpiece by the people that actually stayed to watch it (mostly the Kyoani hardcores it would seem) and noticed that it's now kind of getting the same ridiculous over the top praise that Kyoani shows have historically gotten and that is still impossible for me to take seriously (I couldn't help but laugh at some reviews that I've seen in how over the top and strange the criteria for "perfection" are), only on a MUCH smaller scale and again only by the diehard fans. Apparently I missed something along the way and it got....I don't want to use the word popular cause that doesn't really describe it...so I'll settle with "internally hyped" (possibly the least surprising thing ever), but in any case the downward trend in Kyoani's popularity is still noticeable in spite of whatever went on with Nichijou and Kyoani hardcores during it's second half.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

edit: Though I've just learned today that Nichijou is apparently now regarded as some hidden gem masterpiece by the people that actually stayed to watch it (mostly the Kyoani hardcores it would seem) and noticed that it's now kind of getting the same ridiculous over the top praise that Kyoani shows have historically gotten and that is still impossible for me to take seriously (I couldn't help but laugh at some reviews that I've seen in how over the top and strange the criteria for "perfection" are), only on a MUCH smaller scale and again only by the diehard fans. Apparently I missed something along the way and it got....I don't want to use the word popular cause that doesn't really describe it...so I'll settle with "internally hyped" (possibly the least surprising thing ever), but in any case the downward trend in Kyoani's popularity is still noticeable in spite of whatever went on with Nichijou and Kyoani hardcores during it's second half.

Nichijou was good, but not perfect. There were too many episodes in the first half that left me without any sort of emotion whatsoever, simply because the jokes didn't connect or were too obscure. The show looks absolutely gorgeous and is wonderfully animated, but YMMV how entertaining it truly is.

I'll admit, I stuck with it just because it was a KyoAni show, but I also read parts of the manga that I loved and weren't animated yet at the time, so I knew it had to become better when they would get to it, and in that regard, the studio didn't disappoint me. But, I'm not going out of my way claiming it to be a masterpiece. For me, it falls somewhere between 'good' and 'very good' (7 or 8) and anything higher than that is merely the fans hyping the show up to something it's not.

And last I checked, sales for this show weren't doing so well, though that could change with the shift in timeslot (prime time vs late night) and the accompanied change of audience.

As for the studio itself, with all the success formulas it has had recently, they've set the bar really high in terms of expectations. Basically, if they're making something, it just has to be worth watching. And I think the studio is quite aware of that (which I think is why they made Nichijou look so damn good).

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

For me it's that fans have gone to treating them like Studio Jesus that is completely infallible to treating them like any other studio and acknowledging where they actually fit in in the grand scheme of the anime industry and where there is room for improvement. Rather people have come to actually expect something out of them in return for their praise and attention, which seemed to flow unconditionally just a few years ago.

The continual stream of cute girls doing cute things shows may have had something to do with providing the shock that woke a fanbase up.

edit: Though I've just learned today that Nichijou is apparently now regarded as some hidden gem masterpiece by the people that actually stayed to watch it (mostly the Kyoani hardcores it would seem) and noticed that it's now kind of getting the same ridiculous over the top praise that Kyoani shows have historically gotten and that is still impossible for me to take seriously (I couldn't help but laugh at some reviews that I've seen in how over the top and strange the criteria for "perfection" are), only on a MUCH smaller scale and again only by the diehard fans. Apparently I missed something along the way and it got....I don't want to use the word popular cause that doesn't really describe it...so I'll settle with "internally hyped" (possibly the least surprising thing ever), but in any case the downward trend in Kyoani's popularity is still noticeable in spite of whatever went on with Nichijou and Kyoani hardcores during it's second half.

The people who treated them as "Studio Jesus" still do imho. A person that claims Munto is the best thing ever will still think of KyoAni as a god. Its the die hard cute girls doing cute things fans (which as of late become a large part of the KyoAni fanbase) that have disliked Nichijyou, those fans never thought of KyoAni as Studio Jesus (unless they have really short memory spans) as not all KyoAni works have been cute girls doing cute things.

On the topic of Nichijyou. I really like it. More than K-On. Maybe not as much as the Key/KyoAni works though. Nichijyou, despite its hype isn't really a cute girls doing cute things show as much as it is a comedy. This, imho, is why Nichijyou failed (for KyoAni standards of success). It was hyped as a cute girls doing cute things and failed to deliver (as well as other series) on that.

KyoAni hasn't really lowered their production standards and way of doing things for Nichjyou either. It has solid quality and beautiful animation like everything else from them. KyoAni is a failure of an original work studio and are faithful adapters, thus they can only be as good as their source work. KyoAni did their thing with Nichijyou and a lot of people didn't like it, not because of KyoAni messing up on their adaptation, but because Nichijyou is definitely not what KyoAni hyped it to be, and because Nichijyou isn't something they would like regardless of the studio. I don't see anyone that loved Nichijyou manga complaining about Nichijyou anime. Despite the "failure" in sales that FMP received, I don't think a notable amount of FMP fans complained about FMPTSR/FMPF.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

Nichijou was good, but not perfect. There were too many episodes in the first half that left me without any sort of emotion whatsoever, simply because the jokes didn't connect or were too obscure. The show looks absolutely gorgeous and is wonderfully animated, but YMMV how entertaining it truly is.

I'll admit, I stuck with it just because it was a KyoAni show, but I also read parts of the manga that I loved and weren't animated yet at the time, so I knew it had to become better when they would get to it, and in that regard, the studio didn't disappoint me. But, I'm not going out of my way claiming it to be a masterpiece. For me, it falls somewhere between 'good' and 'very good' (7 or 8) and anything higher than that is merely the fans hyping the show up to something it's not.

And last I checked, sales for this show weren't doing so well, though that could change with the shift in timeslot (prime time vs late night) and the accompanied change of audience.

As for the studio itself, with all the success formulas it has had recently, they've set the bar really high in terms of expectations. Basically, if they're making something, it just has to be worth watching. And I think the studio is quite aware of that (which I think is why they made Nichijou look so damn good).

The simple fact that you go into detail and the measured way in which you express your sentiments on the Nichijou matter make this a much more believable take on the show than most supposed reviews I've seen. Though I still have a hard time believing that there are terribly high expectations of Kyoani and if there are I can't ever remember them actually being enforced on a show that they did.

In any case I definitely don't subscribe to the whole "if they are making it it must be worth watching" creed (or as it used to be expressed quite bizarrely and IMO unrealistically, "Kyoani can turn anything into gold, even if it's a turd it'll be a solid gold turd") but I'm sure for the people that have loved all of their shows unconditionally that's still the case. As always I continue to call such a sentiment more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than a reality (Nichijou's low sales and arguable complete lack of impact throughout the last two seasons kind of support this) and often have to wonder who people that make such utterances are really trying to convince.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

For me it's that fans have gone to treating them like Studio Jesus that is completely infallible to treating them like any other studio and acknowledging where they actually fit in in the grand scheme of the anime industry and where there is room for improvement. Rather people have come to actually expect something out of them in return for their praise and attention, which seemed to flow unconditionally just a few years ago.

The continual stream of cute girls doing cute things shows may have had something to do with providing the shock that woke a fanbase up.

If by "woke up" you mean "changed opinion on cute girl shows", I don't think it happened. The excitement surrounding Idolmaster reminds me an awful lot of the excitement that surrounded Lucky Star and K-On! - only driven by the franchise name rather than KyoAni's name. And certainly there seems to be a lot more excitement around the K-On! movie than Nichijou. Both KyoAni titles, but one comes from a big name franchise and the other doesn't. So I'm not really seeing a change in the types of shows these people like, just a change in how interest they are in non-established KyoAni properties.

(I'm aware that the Idolmaster games are popular enough to qualify as "hax" from a marketting standpoint, but I'd say the same about KyoAni's brand after Air and Haruhi. More plebian shows about cute girls were never going to reach the sort of sales numbers KyoAni's stuff did.)

Edit:

(or as it used to be expressed quite bizarrely and IMO unrealistically, "Kyoani can turn anything into gold, even if it's a turd it'll be a solid gold turd").

Personally speaking, I thought that anything Kyoto produced would always be worth watching up until 2009. Then came the one-two punch of Munto TV and Endless Eight.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

If by "woke up" you mean "changed opinion on cute girl shows", I don't think it happened. The excitement surrounding Idolmaster reminds me an awful lot of the excitement that surrounded Lucky Star and K-On! - only driven by the franchise name rather than KyoAni's name. And certainly there seems to be a lot more excitement around the K-On! movie than Nichijou. Both KyoAni titles, but one comes from a big name franchise and the other doesn't. So I'm not really seeing a change in the types of shows these people like, just a change in how interest they are in non-established KyoAni properties.

(I'm aware that the Idolmaster games are popular enough to qualify as "hax" from a marketting standpoint, but I'd say the same about KyoAni's brand after Air and Haruhi. More plebian shows about cute girls were never going to reach the sort of sales numbers KyoAni's stuff did.)

Yeah Idolmaster along with Tales of, SRW and the SD Gundam G Generation franchise have basically made Namco Bandai a force to be reckoned with in the 3rd party Japanese gaming scene perhaps second only to the likes of Capcom, Konami and Square Enix. Though they still have barely made a dent outside that market unlike Capcom, Konami and Square. It's funny cause Idolmaster in it's first iteration was actually more of an idol management simulation than it is now, but with the second entry it seems like they've realized where the appeal of the franchise is (not the gameplay) and have turned it into more of a cute girls dancing simulator. I'd argue it jump started a trend that has led to a decline in Japanese gaming/innovation therein (along with the recent overwhelming popularity of Visual Novels) that people like former Capcom director Keiji Inafune have talked abou at length. I could make a similar argument for Kyoani and the anime scene, but it'd be about a year too late for it to be of any relevance anymore.

Anyway Namco Bandai was also the publisher of the majority of Kyoani shows that had been turned into a video games before Kadokawa Shoten started developing and publishing them themselves, which seems like a great idea for having quality games doesn't it? In any case I'd say that Namco Bandai are among the most horizontally/vertically integrated company in Japan right now, but that's a topic for another thread.

By the way, I think the current state of otaku entertainment in Japan can be traced back more to the emerging popularity of Light Novels and Visual Novels than perhaps any single other factor in the past decade. Nothing has had a greater impact, not any studio, not any director, not any writer or visionary than that singular factor. As much as I still really don't care about the scene very much at all, it's hard to argue against the fact that Light Novels and Visual Novels are basically the shit there right now. The be all end all for many an otaku, where everything stems from. Still I hope other folks realize that there was a time that LN's/VN's weren't the driving force behind the Japanese entertainment sub-cultures at large. It's kind of sad that I feel like I'm dating myself by saying this.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Though I still have a hard time believing that there are terribly high expectations of Kyoani and if there are I can't ever remember them actually being enforced on a show that they did.

In any case I definitely don't subscribe to the whole "if they are making it it must be worth watching" creed (or as it used to be expressed quite bizarrely and IMO unrealistically, "Kyoani can turn anything into gold, even if it's a turd it'll be a solid gold turd") but I'm sure for the people that have loved all of their shows unconditionally that's still the case. As always I continue to call such a sentiment more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than a reality (Nichijou's low sales and arguable complete lack of impact throughout the last two seasons kind of support this) and often have to wonder who people that make such utterances are really trying to convince.

It would help if you explained what criteria you judged them by other than the hype people and fans drum up. For instance, many shows (for manga, especially) are very binary translations of a source material to animation. The work of the animation studio is to coordinate the scene, add sound, add music, set a visual tone, and, in some cases, establish a narrative. I like to see what a studio adds to (or as is more often the case, takes away) from an adaptation, and honestly I think this studio does a much more solid job of making things more memorable through added sentimental character interactions (though this can become ponderous in places).

edit: Though I've just learned today that Nichijou is apparently now regarded as some hidden gem masterpiece by the people that actually stayed to watch it (mostly the Kyoani hardcores it would seem) and noticed that it's now kind of getting the same ridiculous over the top praise that Kyoani shows have historically gotten and that is still impossible for me to take seriously (I couldn't help but laugh at some reviews that I've seen in how over the top and strange the criteria for "perfection" are), only on a MUCH smaller scale and again only by the diehard fans. Apparently I missed something along the way and it got....I don't want to use the word popular cause that doesn't really describe it...so I'll settle with "internally hyped" (possibly the least surprising thing ever), but in any case the downward trend in Kyoani's popularity is still noticeable in spite of whatever went on with Nichijou and Kyoani hardcores during it's second half.

Here I would say that you are wrongly attributing the praise for the content of the original material to the animation studio, and further attributing that to the studio's 'hardcores'. If you pointed out some specific posts that would be nice.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

By the way, I think the current state of otaku entertainment in Japan can be traced back more to the emerging popularity of Light Novels and Visual Novels than perhaps any single other factor in the past decade. Nothing has had a greater impact, not any studio, not any director, not any writer or visionary than that singular factor. As much as I still really don't care about the scene very much at all, it's hard to argue against the fact that Light Novels and Visual Novels are basically the shit there right now.

Maybe in that many of the big shows in the past couple years are original written by VN trained authors (Angel Beats, Madoka) or showing signs of influence from them (AnoHana). But I get the feeling that both LN and VN adaptations peaked a few years back, just not as much as other genres due to some economic factors (ie. not relying on declining prime time broadcast revenues, which is what I'd cite as the biggest change and industry challenge in recent years). We may get a bit of a reversal in VN adaptations if Steins;Gate convinces owners of other highly regarded but unadapted VN IPs (of which there are several) to give anime a shot, but that's about it. And in KyoAni's case, I definitely think that the company's output would have been different over the past few years if they had choosen to stick with LNs/VNs rather than go the 4Koma route.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

The simple fact that you go into detail and the measured way in which you express your sentiments on the Nichijou matter make this a much more believable take on the show than most supposed reviews I've seen. Though I still have a hard time believing that there are terribly high expectations of Kyoani and if there are I can't ever remember them actually being enforced on a show that they did.

I have high expectations of animation quality, faithfulness to source, effectiveness of translating the source into the animated medium. I think that KyoAni has been excellent in this matter and there is little evidence against the fact that they do a great job at what they are supposed to do. I don't think a KyoAni adaptation exist that doesn't effectively translate the source into an animated medium with high quality.

Though, I think people had too false expectations for KyoAni shows to be automatically masterpieces in their opinion. KyoAni makes faithful, quality adaptations, thus if you don't like the source, its highly doubtful you will like their adaptation of it.

In any case I definitely don't subscribe to the whole "if they are making it it must be worth watching" creed

I don't really subscribe to that either. I don't think that should be the case with any studio, unless your main enjoyment is fluid animation quality or other things that are traits exclusively of the animation studio and not the source.

(or as it used to be expressed quite bizarrely and IMO unrealistically, "Kyoani can turn anything into gold, even if it's a turd it'll be a solid gold turd")

This isn't expressing quite the same thing I think. And I do agree with at least my interpretation of the statement.

It'll be a golden turd, but a turd nevertheless. If you hate cute girls doing cute things, you will hate K-On, but K-On is still a series that delivers on an effective adaptation with high quality that many expect out of KyoAni.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

The continual stream of cute girls doing cute things shows may have had something to do with providing the shock that woke a fanbase up.

edit: Though I've just learned today that Nichijou is apparently now regarded as some hidden gem masterpiece by the people that actually stayed to watch it (mostly the Kyoani hardcores it would seem) and noticed that it's now kind of getting the same ridiculous over the top praise that Kyoani shows have historically gotten and that is still impossible for me to take seriously (I couldn't help but laugh at some reviews that I've seen in how over the top and strange the criteria for "perfection" are), only on a MUCH smaller scale and again only by the diehard fans. Apparently I missed something along the way and it got....I don't want to use the word popular cause that doesn't really describe it...so I'll settle with "internally hyped" (possibly the least surprising thing ever), but in any case the downward trend in Kyoani's popularity is still noticeable in spite of whatever went on with Nichijou and Kyoani hardcores during it's second half.

Nah, Nichijou mostly alienated the "cute girls doing cute things" part of the fanbase. The source material is a bit too high brow to be otaku friendly. The show scored with fans of other surreal comedies, even those who are not fans of anime in particular. If you enjoy stuff like Monthy Python, Coen brothers movies etc. there is a good chance you will like Nichijou. In terms of adaption, Nichijou is at least as good as Usagi Drop.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

More plebian shows about cute girls were never going to reach the sort of sales numbers KyoAni's stuff did.

I don't know, Angel Beats and Infinite Stratos sold at Kyoani numbers. You can argue that quality art and character designs with some popular Seiyuu is enough to please significant numbers of moe otaku (from a sales pov).

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

By the way, I think the current state of otaku entertainment in Japan can be traced back more to the emerging popularity of Light Novels and Visual Novels than perhaps any single other factor in the past decade. Nothing has had a greater impact, not any studio, not any director, not any writer or visionary than that singular factor. As much as I still really don't care about the scene very much at all, it's hard to argue against the fact that Light Novels and Visual Novels are basically the shit there right now. The be all end all for many an otaku, where everything stems from. Still I hope other folks realize that there was a time that LN's/VN's weren't the driving force behind the Japanese entertainment sub-cultures at large. It's kind of sad that I feel like I'm dating myself by saying this.

The magic word is Eroge, check out it's history if you want to know why anime has become the way it is today.

Shortage of creative talent/ideas and heavy competition in the anime industry in the early 2000s lead them to court cash strapped software houses that had useful IP. It's a bit like Hollywood and the comic industry.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Bri

I don't know, Angel Beats and Infinite Stratos sold at Kyoani numbers. You can argue that quality art and character designs with some popular Seiyuu is enough to please significant numbers of moe otaku (from a sales pov).

I wouldn't describe Angel Beats' heritage as plebian. Key is royalty among moe fans.

Infinite Stratos - okay, that's a case of a franchise with little heritage hitting it big - but such occurences seem rare to me.

(I also have to admit that I tend to think of Infinite Stratos as a harem show first and a moe show second, which is the opposite of what I think when I look at the Key-KyoAni collaborations, Haruhi, Angel Beats, and a few others, hence its not something that tends to come to mind for me in moe show discussions despite Charlotte being among my favourite characters, well, ever.)

[Sheba]

I dunno, even as a Monty Python fan, I have found Nichijou to be extraordinarily dull.

[Pocari_Sweat]

I question the notion of Nichijou being a masterpiece. Watched 7 episodes of the thing and couldn't stand it. Too "Japanese" for my liking.

If anything, Usagi Drop seems to be the "masterpiece" slice of life anime of the year so far. You don't have to appreciate Japanese humour to like it. Heck, you could be a non-anime viewer and at the very least tolerate it.

I doubt that KyoAni will make something so down to earth though.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I question the notion of Nichijou being a masterpiece. Watched 7 episodes of the thing and couldn't stand it. Too "Japanese" for my liking.

If anything, Usagi Drop seems to be the "masterpiece" slice of life anime of the year so far. You don't have to appreciate Japanese humour to like it. Heck, you could be a non-anime viewer and at the very least tolerate it.

I doubt that KyoAni will make something so down to earth though.

Well opinions do differ, but in my opinion Nichijou is hell close on being a masterpiece. Its unique take on comedy and how it almost never fails to make me smile, + adding the incredible visual, for me its a comedy at its finest.

And it shouldn't even be compared to Usagi Drop since Nichijou only pretended to be slice-of-life.

Also, I think CLANNAD comes the closest in terms of being down to earth.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Random32

The people who treated them as "Studio Jesus" still do imho. A person that claims Munto is the best thing ever will still think of KyoAni as a god.

I honestly haven't seen a single person call Munto the best thing ever...

I don't think a notable amount of FMP fans complained about FMPTSR/FMPF.

Well when the original author is behind the Series Composition (and fixing continuity errors from Gonzo's fuckups) it's kinda hard not to be happy. I really think he's a good writer, his work on Druaga was pretty funny and his Lucky Star episodes were imo the best of that lot. If KyoAni ever seriously want to do an original production they should look @ getting Shoji Gatoh to write it.

[Decagon]

What particularly stood out for me with Nichijou was the occasional action bit mickey moused to orchestral scores. Made me nostalgic enough to break out my Tom & Jerry discs.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by ahelo

And it shouldn't even be compared to Usagi Drop since Nichijou only pretended to be slice-of-life.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

If anything, Usagi Drop seems to be the "masterpiece" slice of life anime of the year so far. You don't have to appreciate Japanese humour to like it. Heck, you could be a non-anime viewer and at the very least tolerate it.

Both anime are manga adaptions (adaption being the key word here) so it allows us to compare what either studio did with the source material in a technical sense. It's not a value judgement of the content.

Originally Posted by Westlo

I honestly haven't seen a single person call Munto the best thing ever...

It depends. On the whole Munto just isn't a good show. However, animators love it, and it consistently ranks high in Sakuga lists (f.e. see http://www18.atwiki.jp/sakuga/pages/100.html. I suspect it got them quite a bit of industry cred.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Bri

Both anime are manga adaptions (adaption being the key word here) so it allows us to compare what either studio did with the source material in a technical sense. It's not a value judgement of the content.

I was sorta referring to comparing Nichijou to a slice of life, down to earth show which in technicality it isn't so in that sense I think Usagi Drop and Nichijou are two things that are way to far off to be compared with.

[Ithekro]

The original Munto (from 2002 or so) got KyoAni high marks for their animation and such. I basically got them involved with FMP: Fumoffu and AIR.

Munto TV (2009)...most people didn't even watch (I certainly didn't). Most were still on about Clannad: After Story, Haruhi-chan, and getting ready for K-On and Haruhi (2009).

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I question the notion of Nichijou being a masterpiece. Watched 7 episodes of the thing and couldn't stand it. Too "Japanese" for my liking.

Oh man. That little bit of Nichijou I watched makes me think it barely qualifies as anime, much less a masterpiece.

Then again comparing stuff to Usagi Drop is never fair, I guess.

I doubt that KyoAni will make something so down to earth though.

Prob not, but Akabesoft2 (G senjou and Sharin) gogo! Amirite?