2009-06-30, 03:02 | Link #201 | |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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The thing with Endless Eight is that her consciousness lives through that in its entirety, since there's variation from iteration to iteration, that it is her job to observe. Kinda why I think it might be interesting if KyoAni ran this last upcoming Endless Eight from Yuki's point of view. Technically it would be "filler", but I don't think anyone would mind such a stunt. Except for the Yuki-hating unbelievers, but no one cares about them...
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2009-06-30, 07:32 | Link #202 | ||||
Uncountable rationality
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On the other hand, if we do assume that the syncronization occurs only within that 3 years, then Yuki's ability to predict the future would be evidence to the contrary. Quote:
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2009-06-30, 21:35 | Link #203 |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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Yuki's present when that happens. There's been enough foreshadowing of how he does it that we won't necessarily need his inner monologue at the time. That and the plot of next episode should be much more like the second E8 than the first E8 was. Almost identical, as a matter of fact, right up until a few minutes from the end, considering how close the second E8 was to the novel. They'll need something to differentiate this one from the previous versions of E8.
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2009-07-06, 10:03 | Link #204 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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From a thermodynamics point of view, each time reset would be require literally astronomically-high amounts of energy. When a cycle is reset, gas that has dispersed must be recollected into its original distribution. Photons that have escaped the stars must be restored to their original positions. Anything that has decayed (geological, biological, astrological, etc.) would need an outside source of energy to restore the original state of the universe (If the second law of thermodynamics is to be observed). I won't speculate on how exactly time travel works, but there is a HUGE difference in entropy from one state of the universe to the next. Where Haruhi pulls this energy from worries me a bit.
Does she use something akin to Maxwell's Demon to get the required energy? Or is this impossible as wikipedia says, due to "information entropy"? Any thoughts?
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2009-07-06, 10:12 | Link #205 |
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 36
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One thing we know is that the Data Entities confirms that she can produce anything out of nothing and is essentially a fountain of infinite data. She can produce infinite energy and mass, how she does that is our question here.
She could be a cosmic anomaly in human form, a topological defect somewhere in her mind, or be a being that's supposed to be in higher dimensions but somehow stays in the 3rd dimension. She could even be the physical manifestation of division by zero. We will never know what she really is, because even the Data Entities have no idea.
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2009-07-06, 10:28 | Link #206 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I don't know about "physical manifestation of dividing by zero" since I can't wrap my head around that. But from what I *do* know, here is what I think: Haruhi represents to the Integrated Sentient Data Entity evidence that there is a space "outside" the the universe it inhabits that contains energy that Haruhi is able to tap into. Her ability to "create things out of nothing" could be the ability to shunt energy and information from outside in. She's a conduit into an outside arena that the ISDE doesn't inhabit or control. If I were the ISDE, I'd definitely be interested in potentially securing for myself a position in this outside arena.
Also, it may be a cop-out , but Mr. Tanigawa could make the universe we live in right now to be the one the ISDE is trying to expand into. =P A conclusion to the Haruhi series similar to this is something that I could be satisfied with.
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2009-07-06, 10:41 | Link #209 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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If people stop buying Haruhi-related paraphernalia, then whatever developments that might occur in the plot surrounding the SOS団 would slow to a halt. Conversely, the more money and attention people in the "real world" around us dedicate to Haruhi and her brigade, the longer her world will exist for us. =P If people became so entranced by the antics of Haruhi that they forgot their roles in society, then yes, Haruhi would be accelerating the death and decay of our world. The decay rate would be measurable in terms of anime, manga, omake, and game sales.
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2009-07-06, 10:49 | Link #211 | ||
Absolute Haruhist!
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 36
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Unless spirits of the dead exist and are used as a source of power.
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2009-07-06, 11:10 | Link #212 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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But as for the amount of energy consumed by Haruhi's antics, I wonder if there is a way to quantify it? How much energy decay is directly caused by people reading the novels? How about for any given novel that is published? The amount of energy burned in response to a work of fiction would be proportional to the amount of available energy and the size/influence of the audience, right? We could at least make an order-of-magnitude guess like was done with the Drake Equation.
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2009-07-08, 13:02 | Link #213 |
Sasaki-ist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 37
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What you described (manually putting ever particle in the universe back the way it was) doesn't match the effects observed in Endless Eight. If Haruhi was putting every particle back the way it was then while it would seem like time was resetting to the characters, it wouldn't actually be doing so. This would allow time travelers from outside the time period of Endless Eight to interact with it simply by sending messages to any of the iterations they want, because all of them would be laid out to be seen.
This might help in visualizing it: Time in Haruhi has been explained as being somewhat analogous to a film, with each moment being an individual slide. In your example, there would be 500-some years worth of film of those two weeks playing over and over again. What I think Haruhi did was cut those two weeks out of the film and tape the ends of it together in such a way that the projector would just keep playing them over and over. Thus, no matter how many iterations there were, once reattached to the rest of the film there would only be those two weeks of film. The differences in the iterations may come from the IDTE which, being outside of time, was unaffected and its knowledge could have influenced each of the loops (through Nagato's behavior, perhaps). |
2009-07-08, 14:42 | Link #216 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Haruhi's loop may reset perfectly each time, but after the reset probability sets in again, changing the outcome in minor (or major) ways each time...until it loops again.
Bit errors each time, but they don't seem to mount up since she's using the original as her copy source rather than copy of a copy of a copy. And while the Time Travellers can't penetrate the loop (perhaps they could, but Mikuru's problem is that she's attempting to get contact from relative time ahead of her rather than actual time ahead of her, the she's connecting with loop 12,000 from loop 373 rather than 2009 to whatever year she is from. Thus her temporal coordinates are off enough that she doesn't make contact...her device is off tune, rather the future not existing), the aliens (or at least Yuki) are still fully intact each loop. The aliens exist outside of Haruhi's space-time loop, thus at least Yuki's memories do not reset. One assumes she could be in contact with the outside world still, or she's managed to sync up with a future version that is far enough ahead to be outside the loop, thus she might know exactly when the loop with end...though that doesn't mean she won't be bored while still in the loop. On the other hand, maybe the "future" does not exist anymore. There are in a sealed loop of time-space, never ending, always repeating. Mikuru's people are gone since there will never be a September, much less a future. Yuki's people are also gone, but her own mind exists outside of time, therefore there is a dimention that Haruhi's loop does not effect. However she might not be able to sync with a future self because there still is no future to sync with. Thus she does not know how to escape, nor when the looping will end, only what has happened inside the loop since it began. The probability is about the only thing keeping Yuki even the slightest bit sane. Minor things excite her now. A new bug she catches, a new star to look at. A different mask to buy. A different set of clothes to see. (I'm suprised Yuki hasn't started wearing different clothes other than her school uniform over all these loops, just to keep from being bored.) Shifts in the weather, slight variations in activities. All things that keep Yuki from loosing herself. It isn't much as you can see the looping is getting to her by loop 15,498. The techincal question is...what happens when they do escape the loop? What is time-space like when it finally becomes September 1st for Haruhi? Is everything in its correct place in the 4 dimentions she is known to be effecting with her loop? Will it be as if no loops happened (aside from Yuki's knowledge and the rest of the group's knowledge that they were looping)? Or will the universe outside be several hundred years older than it should be on Earth?
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2009-07-08, 15:10 | Link #217 | |
Sasaki-ist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 37
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Let's see what happens when we drop the film analogy and think about what we know of time travel in Haruhi and what it requires. Time travelers are from the future; this requires that the future exists in some manner that can be reached without fully experiencing the intervening time. Time travelers have traveled to the past; this requires that the past exists in some form that can be reached even after we are finished experiencing it. Thus the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously and it is our perception of events that moves. How it moves, I do not know, but that isn't important right now. To imagine the form a universe in which this is true would take, visualize an object, any object will do. Visualize the object in empty space and designate left and right as "past" and "future." Now imagine a chain of that object extending to the left leading to that object's creation and one to the right extending to its destruction. Congratulations, you have just imagined the 4D shape of an object. Extend this to the whole universe. So in Endless Eight Haruhi has cut out a two-week segment of the universe and attached its ends together. There is no moving everything back because she has altered the 4D shapes of everything in the universe. The characters don't perceive this because they aren't capable of seeing 4D shapes without moving through time. Ugh, I'm not sure if I was able to explain that adequately. Language sure is an inconvenient way of transmitting information. Anyone got a better explanation? |
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2009-07-08, 15:20 | Link #218 |
The Hawk
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin, Fatherland
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This is actually stated in the show. There is no future beyond the loop end, which is the reason why Mikuru cannot return to her future or contact it. And that's why Yuki wouldn't be able to synchronize with her future.
Quite the disaster, if you think about it. Yuki would however, be able to access her memories after a loop. I imagine it like that. End of the holidays, time loops. First thing that happens is that Yuki get's the information of what happend, since the Entity isn't affected by the time loop. Not only would she think "I see, we've been repeating the holidays over and over again", she'd also have all the memories and experiences back, which leads to the boredom. |
2009-07-08, 20:50 | Link #219 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Land Down Under
Age: 32
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2009-07-09, 01:57 | Link #220 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Haruhi want Mikuru there, so Mikuru is there. There is nothing to resolve; Haruhi is LAW. As such all temporal theories kneel before her. All you need to know is this; there are rules concerning Time and Space in Haruhi's universe, and everyone follow it, even Yuki's people. But Haruhi does not. For Haruhi, there IS no rule. She decides how the universe works.
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