[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GoldenLand]

Yeah, it seems as if people are actually agreeing more than they disagree despite appearances.

Yasu's obviously an intelligent, creative person who isn't insane and has an understanding of what is and isn't a healthy coping mechanism, and an idea of the "real" nature of magic. She's someone who had the ability to do things such as call Battler and leave the island, but didn't. At the same time, "not insane" doesn't mean she's mentally healthy. Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo have let her down to an incredible degree, she's isolated and has nobody but Maria to rely on, knowing the true nature of her own coping mechanisms doesn't stop her from needing and using them, the structure of her coping mechanisms requires her to stay on the island unless she's willing to abandon them, and her issues with her upbringing/gender/family history/love life are tough ones. Nobody completely understands her and cares about her as herself (Maria is the closest but she really has her limits), and more than anything she wants somebody to do that.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I won't go into what Genji did because hiding the truth from her, letting her grow up with the idea she was a girl with something wrong which she desperately tried to fix as she longed to be normal when actually she was a boy with something missing, forcing her to live as a orphan (couldn't he have adopted her or paid someone to adopt her?), hiring her to work on Rokkenjima when she was so young and in such a harsh environment and using her for Kinzo's atonement when it was too late for her to build up a father/son/daughter relationship or even create a setting in which she would be accepted in the family where everyone saw her as merely a servant... well, that's pretty horrible.

Genji could have found a good, caring family for the injured baby Yasu, and made sure there was plenty of money available for them. At that time, even a well intentioned and otherwise caring family might have made the decision to keep her in the dark about her sex, which would have led to unpleasant surprises later, but at least the other problems (being a child servant, bullying from Natsuhi and the servants, isolation, lack of a true family and a true support network) could have been avoided. Even placing her with a proper family wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of letting Yasu spend some time with Kinzo in controlled circumstances or even have her become the family head. If he had to lie about her identity and introduce her to the Ushiromiyas, even a situation where he said "this is my/Kumawawa's/Nanjo's relative who is coming to stay on the island over the summer" would be preferable.

You're completely right, the people most at blame there are the adults. Yes, let's bring the baby Natsuhi tried to murder back to the island for Kinzo's benefit. So that no more murder or molestation attempts occur, let's make her work as a servant from a young age. Let's deal with her problems by indulging her coping mechanisms rather than actually helping her solve them. Let's feed her hints about the epitaph that was meant for her. Now, put on this wig and dress and come over here to forgive your dad for imprisoning and raping your mother! OK, now she's the family head, let's just obey her and indulge her like we indulged Kinzo, or be bribed with money by her.

I'm beginning to think that the reason Ryukishi didn't give those characters, Genji in particular, more depth is that justifying that stuff was too hard for apparently sane and competent adults.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Genji could have found a good, caring family for the injured baby Yasu, and made sure there was plenty of money available for them. At that time, even a well intentioned and otherwise caring family might have made the decision to keep her in the dark about her sex, which would have led to unpleasant surprises later, but at least the other problems (being a child servant, bullying from Natsuhi and the servants, isolation, lack of a true family and a true support network) could have been avoided. Even placing her with a proper family wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of letting Yasu spend some time with Kinzo in controlled circumstances or even have her become the family head. If he had to lie about her identity and introduce her to the Ushiromiyas, even a situation where he said "this is my/Kumawawa's/Nanjo's relative who is coming to stay on the island over the summer" would be preferable.

You're completely right, the people most at blame there are the adults. Yes, let's bring the baby Natsuhi tried to murder back to the island for Kinzo's benefit. So that no more murder or molestation attempts occur, let's make her work as a servant from a young age. Let's deal with her problems by indulging her coping mechanisms rather than actually helping her solve them. Let's feed her hints about the epitaph that was meant for her. Now, put on this wig and dress and come over here to forgive your dad for imprisoning and raping your mother! OK, now she's the family head, let's just obey her and indulge her like we indulged Kinzo, or be bribed with money by her.

I'm beginning to think that the reason Ryukishi didn't give those characters, Genji in particular, more depth is that justifying that stuff was too hard for apparently sane and competent adults.

Probably you're right. Not mentioning having Yasu work as a servant wouldn't have necessarily stopped Kinzo from abusing her. He had no problems in raping his own daughter. Wouldn't he find much more easy to rape an unrelated, shy and lonely servant with which he can close himself in his study, claiming hey she looks like Beatrice so she must be her new reincarnation?

Really, the way I see things, Genji put Yasu more at risk than anything else by having her come on Rokkenjima as a servant and letting her grow insecure and isolated s she is.

Had Kinzo tried to abuse of her, would she have managed to push him away? To ask for help? Honestly I don't think so.

[AuraTwilight]

To be fair, though, if there were any chance of Genji doing right by Yasu he probably wouldn't of let Beatrice-II be kept prisoner her whole life anyway, and Yasu wouldn't of been born.

Not that it excuses it, but he'd already had a whole person's lifetime to show the resolve to actually do the right thing and he didn't. Yasu didn't really have a chance.

[jjblue1]

Well, I think right in the beginning Genji's life was pretty difficult as he just escaped from his homeland thanks to Kinzo and I'm not even sure if he did so legally.
So maybe his position was uncertain in the beginning, when Beatrice 2 was young and probably he wanted to believe Kinzo cared for his daughter and was acting out of love to her (and probably Kinzo fed him excuses like 'my wife would be a jerk with her' 'people would point out she's an illegittimate and be rude' 'here she can have everything' 'trust me Genji, I know what I'm doing'...). Also Kinzo had the support of the American forces and we're told he basically could do whatever he wanted even when Japan itself wasn't agreeing to it...

So I'll accept he might have felt powerless to do something.

Later on, he might have esitated in doing something because he didn't think Kinzo would have the gut to abuse of his daughter. After all, it's such a horrible thing that everyone would say 'hey, that's not a funny joke, come on, you can't seriously think so' and deluded himself it wouldn't happen until... well, it happened.

(also it seems Japanese servants in the past had a pretty passive mind in regard to their masters so that they sort of found natural for the masters to rape them or other servants or abuse them in other ways. I'm not sure if this passive mind was due to the situation they were in, so that the police or everyone else wouldn't help them or whatever other reason but still... it's pretty scary... and after all we see how Natsuhi handles Yasu. She starts working when she's a minor and when angered Natsuhi orders her to clean everything without stopping to rest or eat. Not something we would expect a modent master to do to a servant)

But when he began hiding Yasu we realize he isn't as powerless anymore. Although he's still using illegal means he managed to bribe Nanjo into lying to declare the baby dead while at the same time taking care of him and switching his sex.
He managed to bribe the Fukuin director into taking the baby and basically keeping it hidden and tricking him... or better her into believing she was 3 years younger. Then he managed to hire said baby despite Natsuhi and Krauss being contrary.

Really, by the time he began protecting Yasu Genji had evidently enough power he could have asked Kumasawa to keep Yasu as if she was her grandaughter, pay her for the expenses and then ask her to carry Yasu to the island here and there with some excuses.
Yasu could have gone tot he same school as Jessica and could have lived a more or less normal life in a better environment while still meeting Kinzo regularly.

Honestly, Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa did very little to help Yasu for real. Personally I fear they were trying to manipulate her for their own reasons.



On a sidenote... guys who would you vote as the worse sibling among the 4? Not as the worse parent/businessman/human being, just as the worse sibling among the 4.

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

On a sidenote... guys who would you vote as the worse sibling among the 4? Not as the worse parent/businessman/human being, just as the worse sibling among the 4.

As children, probably Krauss.

As adults, definitely Eva.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, I think right in the beginning Genji's life was pretty difficult as he just escaped from his homeland thanks to Kinzo and I'm not even sure if he did so legally.

Very unlikely. When Taiwan was "returned" to the Republic of China after the downfall of the Japanese Empire, which had gained Taiwan in the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, there was a long period of strife. The new government tried it's best to change the structure of a nation that had no real identity and so starting with the 228 Incident and the following White Terror there was an era of immense violence, marked by a martial law that lasted from 1949 to 1987.

Genji (whatever his real name is) likely fled Taiwan during the harshest phase of the White Terror in the early 50s, when the just established martial government feverishly searched for Communist spies among the populace and many people were imprisoned, executed, or just vanished.

In a way Genji is like Yasu in some ways. He is actually a nobleman from a well off family in Taiwan who lost everything, including his stubborn family. Genji will likely not be his real name either, his actual identity lost to time.
Still he is so grateful to Kinzo for giving him this escape, to be at his best friends side at least, that he doesn't see this work as a chore but as a way to repay Kinzo's noble deed. Everything he does against Kinzo levels this out again and puts him against his favor.

I like it how he actually says in the EP8 manga that this On (a Japanese moral ethics concept -- simplified way too much you could say it demands for fvors to be always leveled out) he has towards the house of Ushiromiya can never be repaid in his lifetime. To which Kinzo just says that Genji should loosen up, which is kinda sad because they never seemed to have this conversation in real life.

Honestly, Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa did very little to help Yasu for real. Personally I fear they were trying to manipulate her for their own reasons.

That is the one way we can see it. I think in Kumasawa's case that could actually be true...though on the other hand you have motherly Virgilia who is always looking out for her. Genji I think you can make the easiest case that he was just torn...based on the bit we got.
Nanjo and Kumasawa got way too few character to make much of it.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

In a way Genji is like Yasu in some ways. He is actually a nobleman from a well off family in Taiwan who lost everything, including his stubborn family. Genji will likely not be his real name either, his actual identity lost to time.
Still he is so grateful to Kinzo for giving him this escape, to be at his best friends side at least, that he doesn't see this work as a chore but as a way to repay Kinzo's noble deed. Everything he does against Kinzo levels this out again and puts him against his favor.

Well, yes there's a parallelism but somehow I've a hard time thinking Yasus hould feel grateful to Kinzo the same way as Genji feels grateful to him.
Although in the Japanese culture it's put a big emphasis on how children should be grateful to their parents for giving birth to them somehow I think Kinzo's sin is so big he doesn't really deserve thankfulness. But maybe that's because I come from another culture.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I like it how he actually says in the EP8 manga that this On (a Japanese moral ethics concept -- simplified way too much you could say it demands for fvors to be always leveled out) he has towards the house of Ushiromiya can never be repaid in his lifetime. To which Kinzo just says that Genji should loosen up, which is kinda sad because they never seemed to have this conversation in real life.

Well, maybe they had a similar conversation but it never lead them anywhere as Genji never loosen up.

(Still I think BlackGenji is a theory who's even better than BlackBattler... but well, I guess that's just me... :P )

Originally Posted by haguruma

That is the one way we can see it. I think in Kumasawa's case that could actually be true...though on the other hand you have motherly Virgilia who is always looking out for her. Genji I think you can make the easiest case that he was just torn...based on the bit we got.
Nanjo and Kumasawa got way too few character to make much of it.

Well, the problem with Virgilia is she's mostly a fantasy based on Yasu's perception of Kumasawa. Yasu was happy when Kumasawa, instead than telling her she just dreamt Beatrice, encouraged her beliefs in magic. This didn't necessarily mean Kumasawa did the right thing for her, just that Yasu perceived it as such.
Kumasawa doesn't really seem to do much... or to do the right things... but she's doing something and this for Yasu must mean a lot.

Same for Genji whom Yasu considers as a father, even if in the end Genji took horrible choices for her and his loyalty went to Kinzo first.

That's real it would have been nice that the servants were developed more... but from what we can see Nanjo is prone at letting himself being bribed even into doing illegal things (hiding Beatrice, allowing Kinzo to rape his daughter and get away with it, hiding Yasu's survival, hiding Kinzo's death, taking part to Yasu's murder game...) so I really don't think greatly of him.

Kumasawa had some stuffs that weren't developed thought. I would be curious if she too, like Gohda, was supposed to be involved in a different plot and then the idea was dropped.

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

As children, probably Krauss.

As adults, definitely Eva.

Why, if I can ask?

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

On a sidenote... guys who would you vote as the worse sibling among the 4? Not as the worse parent/businessman/human being, just as the worse sibling among the 4.

Confined just to them as siblings? Pending further information, I'd say Eva, on account of it being very likely that she was the one who started shooting Natsuhi and Krauss at Rokkenjima. Although there's a chance Rudolf might turn out just as bad or worse.

Gun-toting aside, I'd say Krauss. He's the eldest, he's embezzled money, and he's known to have always been a bully towards his younger siblings in order to feel superior and compensate for his inadequacies, including him echoing the sexism Kinzo directed towards Eva. I'm sure I remember him going over his faults towards his siblings at some point in the VN or the manga, with some feelings of regret, and he was right. He could probably have made things very different for his siblings, had he been more supportive. In particular, Eva and Rosa could have been a lot less messed up. Rudolf is a bit more of a mystery.

But, Eva and Rudolf were undoubtedly not angelic siblings either. Rosa...comes off by far the best among the siblings, since she had no opportunity to ever bully the elder ones and she was the most vulnerable of them.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

But maybe that's because I come from another culture.

Nah, I always find it difficult to apply such cultural holism to a group of people or individuals (even though I have been accused to do just that on occasions ).
We don't know what Ryukishi's immediate stance on this topic is, and considering that his positively painted characters often have a rather liberal view of family and identity, I think we shouldn't accuse him of expecting such behavior from Yasu or Genji.

I think at least the scenes in EP8 (especially the manga) are meant to show that Genji was never actually expected to adhere to all these crazy whims. His upbringing, his idea of family and his position just forced him to do so. He isn't referring to himself as furniture for nothing, his idea of himself is equally devaluing as Yasu's in a way.
Everything he did he did for Kinzo, in a very strange way he definitely loved him. Maybe not in the romantic sense (we leave that to the doujin) but at least as something like his oldest and closest friend without whom he might not even be alive today. In a way, when Kinzo died, he lost his raison d'etre and - as the endscroll of EP2 tells - longed for a peaceful sleep.

(Still I think BlackGenji is a theory who's even better than BlackBattler... but well, I guess that's just me... :P )

Definitely not, I wouldn't be surprised if Genji was a vital piece in the puzzle. I just don't see him as the acting criminal. If he really wanted, he could have had the gold and the power all along, he even could have just taken his peaceful sleep by just blowing the island up with nobody having a clue.

That's real it would have been nice that the servants were developed more... but from what we can see Nanjo is prone at letting himself being bribed even into doing illegal things (hiding Beatrice, allowing Kinzo to rape his daughter and get away with it, hiding Yasu's survival, hiding Kinzo's death, taking part to Yasu's murder game...) so I really don't think greatly of him.

Yeah, he is a pretty pitiful guy, but I think that was part of his characters. To have these people who still had relatives and show that even they didn't really care about what happened to them, showing that they might have not been the greatest people.
I kinda liked what Forgery of the Purple Logic did with Nanjo though, I could definitely see that happening

Kumasawa had some stuffs that weren't developed thought. I would be curious if she too, like Gohda, was supposed to be involved in a different plot and then the idea was dropped.

Well, in a way she must have been, since she only became Virgilia by extension of the change happening to EP3 and the transformation of Land into Banquet.
If there was plans for her to have a meta-representation she might have been entirely different, maybe she was supposed to be Gaap in the beginning...that would actually make a HELL lot of sense.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I kinda liked what Forgery of the Purple Logic did with Nanjo though, I could definitely see that happening

What did happen in Forgery of the Purple Logic? It looked as if it would be a fun manga when it came out, but since then there seems to have been a dearth of information.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Gun-toting aside, I'd say Krauss. He's the eldest, he's embezzled money, and he's known to have always been a bully towards his younger siblings in order to feel superior and compensate for his inadequacies, including him echoing the sexism Kinzo directed towards Eva. I'm sure I remember him going over his faults towards his siblings at some point in the VN or the manga, with some feelings of regret, and he was right. He could probably have made things very different for his siblings, had he been more supportive. In particular, Eva and Rosa could have been a lot less messed up. Rudolf is a bit more of a mystery.

Hmmm... really? I was actually thinking Krauss is the best one (or, to be perfectly accurate, the les-of-an-ass) out of the siblings.

Granted, he made everybody's childhood not very fun, but at least he is the only one who seems to regret it in the end, plus he cares a lot about his family. Regardless of his relationship with Jessica being completely invisible throughout the series (they barely exchange any words at all in 8 huge EPs) the scene where he proposes a divorce with Natsuhi to take the fall all on his own (which is his responsibility) does redeem him a little bit. Yes, he did put the house on mortgage, but we can give him the fact that he is incompetent, he at least didn't screw his family up on purpose.

On the other hand, Rudolf! Just... Rudolf. He separated the mother from her child, and what is more, he forced it onto another woman just so he could get to sleep with both of them. I mean... yes. Putting everything else he did aside (like cheating on Asumu her whole life for example), that alone is enough to give him first place.

Eva and Rosa are also screwed up in thousands of different ways, sure, but well, Rosa negletcs her daughter and Eva is just being a bitch to everyone. Both of them are not such bad people deep, deep, deep inside, and anyway, they both are portrayed as much more scarred by their crappy childhood than Rudolf is. None of their wrongdoings are a match for what Rudolf did to Kyrie and Battler.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

Hmmm... really? I was actually thinking Krauss is the best one (or, to be perfectly accurate, the les-of-an-ass) out of the siblings.

No, Krauss is by no means the worst person out of the siblings. I'm reading JJ's question as being not about the siblings in their role as parents or as people in general, but solely confined to their role as siblings. That is, to their effects upon each other.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

What did happen in Forgery of the Purple Logic? It looked as if it would be a fun manga when it came out, but since then there seems to have been a dearth of information.

It's a fun concept that mainly let's Erika shine a little bit more.
There's the usual chain of murders, only that Shannon is on "vacation" and Kanon is dead on the first twilight, so everything is a little off. The combination of death's resembles EP3 a little bit, though Jessica and Natsuhi's death together was kinda surprising.

In the end it comes down to Eva, Battler, Erika and Nanjo and Battler seems to suspect Erika to be the culprit. Then he is murdered and Erika says she now has clarity who the culprit is.
For spoilers of the solution read on:

Spoiler for solution:

She reveals the culprit to be Dr. Nanjo (who was the accomplice) this time who managed to find the gold but knew that he would never be accepted by neither the family nor the legal representatives of the house, so in his desperation of technically being the next family head but having nothing but a useless win in an unprovable game to show for it he killed everybody, including the actual main-culprit.
He then kills Eva and threatens to shoot Erika too, but she points out that he forgot about the time. He says she wouldn't kill herself just to stop him, but she answers that it's alright as long as she got to solve the case, because the detective's role ends here. Then the bomb goes off and they are both killed.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

No, Krauss is by no means the worst person out of the siblings. I'm reading JJ's question as being not about the siblings in their role as parents or as people in general, but solely confined to their role as siblings. That is, to their effects upon each other.

Oh, yeah, you're right. My bad.

Well then, as siblings I guess Krauss is pretty much the worst. Ironically, Rudolf seems to be the best sibling after Rosa, because well, except for occassionally bullying Rosa, he doesn't seem to bother with the others that much.

[jjblue1]

About the siblings, as far as my observations go we have:

Krauss: Physically abusive who takes advantage of his own position and is dishonest. He's less capable than Eva but belittles her for being a woman. Even as a adult, for his own gain Krauss will hide Kinzo's death to take advantage of it while knowing this might cause to ruin his siblings who're also having troubles, doing absolutely nothing to help them or to cooperate with them, being sarcastic in face of their correct suspicions, pressuring and tring to manipulate Rosa, the weakest among his siblings, and, in Ep 7, being possibly the most greedy of all them as he first tried to get the Lion's share even though he was the less deserving, both for his lack of contribute (Rosa and Eva offered suggestions to solve the epitaph along with Kyrie, Rudolf climbed on the stairs to 'kill the sacrifices' but what did Natsuhi and Krauss do?) and for his previous dishonest acts. Sure, he acknowledges he's responsible for his bad relation with his siblings but surely he does nothing to fix it although he has occasional moments in which he acts like a brother.

Eva: Verbally abusive she's always out to prove Krauss is inferior to her and take his place. She's very prone to insult Rosa's intelligence and I bet Rudolf got his share of yelling when he was younger, though probably not as much as Rosa as he was smarter. Still, it looks like Eva wouldn't hesitate to reproach him regardless of being her place to do it or not. Rudolf and Eva's relation however seems to have improved to a level of verbally teasing each other. With Rosa though, Eva deems her more submissive than Rudolf and therefore less dangerous and more easy to use but doesn't really respect her much as she continues to reproach her and use her as she please.

Rudolf: Rudolf, according to Rosa, is the smart one who, despite his siblings being bullies, managed to find ways to more or less escape their bullism by being friendly with them... and when he wouldn't, he would vent it all on Rosa twice as bad. It's hard to judge how he is as a brother because he can play friendly very easily so you don't know if he has gotten over the older siblings bullying and honestly cares for Rosa or he's just pretending.

Rosa: Rosa didn't start as a bad sibling as she looked up at her siblings, obeyed to them and wanted to be like them... but they kept bullying her, being violent with her, pushing her in troubles, looking down at her, using her and making her feel inferior... so she has lot of hanger trapped inside and really wants to get even with them. However she can't manage to get violent with them (as she didn't try to shoot Eva in Ep 7 tea party) or really abusive in language (although she can be sarcastic) but this can be merely because she's not used at having the upper hand.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Confined just to them as siblings? Pending further information, I'd say Eva, on account of it being very likely that she was the one who started shooting Natsuhi and Krauss at Rokkenjima. Although there's a chance Rudolf might turn out just as bad or worse.

Well, but it seems that Eva shoot Natsuhi by mistake, as she jumped on her, while Krauss was shoot by Hideyoshi either in self defence or by mistake.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Definitely not, I wouldn't be surprised if Genji was a vital piece in the puzzle. I just don't see him as the acting criminal. If he really wanted, he could have had the gold and the power all along, he even could have just taken his peaceful sleep by just blowing the island up with nobody having a clue.

Well, no I don't think he would kill people but he might have planned to make Yasu the next head and control her and therefore becoming the mastermind of the Ushiromiya in the shadows.
After all he doesn't seem to really care about the siblings and if his only attachment was for Kinzo what stops him from taking from the siblings all Kinzo left behind since they don't deserve it?
Sure, probably Genji isn't this sort of person but considering what he did with Yasu prior to telling her the truth and afterward... well, I'm not pleased with his actions to say the least.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yeah, he is a pretty pitiful guy, but I think that was part of his characters. To have these people who still had relatives and show that even they didn't really care about what happened to them, showing that they might have not been the greatest people.
I kinda liked what Forgery of the Purple Logic did with Nanjo though, I could definitely see that happening

I would like to see a translation of Purple Logic as it seemed interesting...

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, in a way she must have been, since she only became Virgilia by extension of the change happening to EP3 and the transformation of Land into Banquet.
If there was plans for her to have a meta-representation she might have been entirely different, maybe she was supposed to be Gaap in the beginning...that would actually make a HELL lot of sense.

LOL It could be. Well, she surely was left undeveloped. It would be nice if Ryukishi were to reveal more about her.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

No, Krauss is by no means the worst person out of the siblings. I'm reading JJ's question as being not about the siblings in their role as parents or as people in general, but solely confined to their role as siblings. That is, to their effects upon each other.

Exactly.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, but it seems that Eva shoot Natsuhi by mistake, as she jumped on her, while Krauss was shoot by Hideyoshi either in self defence or by mistake.

Ah yeah, that's right about Krauss and Hideyoshi. Eva may have shot by accident, but I'd rate "accidentally shot a sibling's spouse" as pretty bad in the sibling stakes anyway. (But Rudolf may turn out to have shot someone deliberately...)

[Renall]

The biggest problem I have with the presentation of Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo is that their actions are heavily suggestive of being just downright awful people, but so little is actually revealed about them that they're given little opportunity to basically attempt to acquit themselves. It all has to be kind of assumed, and quite frankly it would be extremely difficult to imagine how anything they appear to have done could be justified.

Genji comes out of it the worst because we actually know what he knew. As a result, his actions are extremely irresponsible and it's difficult to think how he could've believed any of what he did was a good or even acceptable idea. He was absolutely complicit in what happened to Beatrice-2 and it certainly seems like he valued Kinzo's potential redemption over Yasu's safe and happy upbringing. Was this all solely because he didn't think it his place to speak up? Was it, as has been suggested, a sort of twisted love for Kinzo that kept him from stopping him for his own good? What the hell could possibly make you think that Yasu should be anywhere near that goddamn island after that entire sequence of events? He at least strongly appears to value Kinzo's happiness over anybody else's, to an almost sickening extent. But was that really so? He doesn't get much of a chance to try to explain himself, unfortunately.

Kumasawa is a lot trickier. It seems fairly clear that she served as some kind of teacher, governess, or other authority figure for Beatrice, but we don't exactly know how involved she was because that plot thread is rarely touched on. While the girl was confined in a sense, her presence could've been seen somewhat innocently as Kinzo just keeping his family close, and since Kumasawa was presumably educating her she might not have thought there was anything going on other than Kinzo wanting to hide the child of his mistress (while also spoiling her; as a mother herself she might've thought that was sweet). A bit shady, but not quite as morally reprehensible. The question becomes whether she knew what Kinzo had done to Beatrice. Kumasawa wasn't there when Rosa met Beatrice, so we can't know if she'd been told to stop visiting or what. Regarding Yasu, she clearly eventually found out even if she didn't know from the start, but how much responsibility did she have for all of that before she did so? It's not clear at all how much Kinzo confided in her, whereas we know he did so with Genji and Nanjo more often. It's possible her actions were equally as nasty as Genji's, but it's also possible she knew very little... or it could be anywhere in between. I'd really like to know more about her.

Nanjo is clearly a shady guy willing to put up with a lot for money. He seems likely to be more or less the only physician that Beatrice/Yasu ever saw, and he definitely concealed things from Yasu (or just conveniently chose to never mention them). What did he know about the Beatrice thing, though? If she was pregnant someone must've attended to her, and who else would it have been? He has to have known that there was only one real possibility as to where that baby had come from, so even if he'd been kept in the dark about Kinzo's intentions for his daughter they must've become clear at some point. And then he basically just shuts up about it forever, never saying a word. It's really hard to imagine how that would make him anything but a very unethical person, and the reaction of his son in ep4 perhaps suggests that even his own family knew or suspected that he was such.

We know none of them told any authorities, and they seem to have been immensely reluctant to tell Yasu until basically confronted directly about it. I don't know how you even attempt to defend that on any level. What I'm mostly curious about is the why; why did they think any of this was a good idea? I can understand why they might be reluctant to tell, and Kinzo is certainly a powerful man and dangerous to have as an enemy, but they didn't just know, they essentially helped make it all happen. From what little we know about them they seem vaguely sorry about what they did but severely lacking in actual justification for why they went ahead and did it at the time. It's nice to be sorry for screwing up Yasu's life but why the hell did you let it get this far?

Let's not forget they let Natsuhi, a person legitimately sorry for what she did, believe she murdered an infant for the rest of her life. I mean the servant would still be an issue either way, but I'm not going to bag on Natsuhi for that because it clearly haunted her forever. Unlike Nanjo, apparently, after knowingly delivering an incest and rape child and then later performing impromptu pediatric surgery on it that would completely change its life and being cool with never mentioning this. He seemed to have no trouble sleeping with the knowledge he did all that, which is just messed up.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

It all has to be kind of assumed, and quite frankly it would be extremely difficult to imagine how anything they appear to have done could be justified.

I think one of the points that can be made is, that their actions can't be justified but somehow explained, similar to the behavior of the adults regarding their children and subjecting them to the same problems they lived under. George wasn't allowed to live his life as he wanted because of expectations, Jessica was pushed into being as womanly as possible, Battler was denied a proper family because of his father, and Maria was tortured with abuse. Their parents should have known better but just chose to repeat history.

Kumasawa is a lot trickier. It seems fairly clear that she served as some kind of teacher, governess, or other authority figure for Beatrice, but we don't exactly know how involved she was because that plot thread is rarely touched on.

Well, the plot heavily hints that she at least didn't know about the location of the gold and was searching for it herself. She even put pictures of hints up in her house and her son seemed to have noticed that this was keeping his mother busy.
This is what makes Kumasawa a lot shadier to me than Genji, because he was at least doing it for somebody else (however misguided) while Kumasawa was at least disinterested in the possible unhappiness the Beatrice's might have suffered. She definitely knew too much and was way to involved in building much of the myth to actually be innocent.

Nanjo is clearly a shady guy willing to put up with a lot for money.

It's really hard to imagine how that would make him anything but a very unethical person, and the reaction of his son in ep4 perhaps suggests that even his own family knew or suspected that he was such.

I'd say he wasn't ethical enough to care more about other's than his own family. He said he did it for his sick grandchild in EP3, but that clearly doesn't excuse his actions. He might have had good intentions, but he readily threw ethics out of the window for an easy way to make money.

Like me and you already said, even his family seemed to distance themselves from him. His son refused to take any money, not out of the simple superstition that Kumasawa Sabakichi held onto but because he was sure that it was dirty money.

From what little we know about them they seem vaguely sorry about what they did but severely lacking in actual justification for why they went ahead and did it at the time. It's nice to be sorry for screwing up Yasu's life but why the hell did you let it get this far?

I think another problem was that they were in it together. Their death in EP1 is kinda telling in what Battler concludes first, that they shot each other in the face. That's in a way the position they were always in, telling on another would immediately send themselves to hell as well.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think one of the points that can be made is, that their actions can't be justified but somehow explained, similar to the behavior of the adults regarding their children and subjecting them to the same problems they lived under. George wasn't allowed to live his life as he wanted because of expectations, Jessica was pushed into being as womanly as possible, Battler was denied a proper family because of his father, and Maria was tortured with abuse. Their parents should have known better but just chose to repeat history.

At least with respect to George, Jessica, and Battler (there's no excuse for Maria), I'd say being a lousy or pushy parent is a little different from being complicit in the things those three got themselves into. Natsuhi and Eva argued repeatedly that what they were doing was important, and while it might've been a bit pushy it was pushy in a way that mothers who want their kids to succeed tend to do. As sins of the parents go, it's one of the least bad things they did.

And Rudolf arguably was doing the right thing by Kyrie and Ange, although Battler ended up suffering for it because of Rudolf's inability to tell the truth. Even if he skirted the issue, saying "I want to marry Kyrie because I'm taking responsibility for our child and I don't want to punish Ange for something that's my fault" would've summed up his motivation to the extent that Battler might've forgiven him for it. You can see where he was at least trying to do what was best for his family, he just couldn't toughen up enough to confront Kyrie and Battler with a necessary truth about their relationship that would've made sense of his actions overall. So what he did appeared to be callous and cruel to his son, but it's nothing at all like Rosa's more deliberate physical and emotional cruelty.

Save what happened to Maria, almost none of that is comparable to the degree to which Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo appear to have enabled Kinzo's outright criminal behavior. And when they had an opportunity to save someone from suffering from Kinzo's sins and eccentricities, they failed to do so and in one instance appear to have put the person back into the situation. Voluntarily. That goes from "a bad idea" to just downright morally reprehensible. Hell, the story even goes so far as to suggest Rosa might've been able to correct her behavior if she had the opportunity. What could those three have done? They already pretty much screwed everything up.

[Dormin]

There has been a lot of talk about Yasu and morality of her "actions".

I somewhat agree with Renall, somewhat disagree.

I agree that her actions were poorly explained, but actually think that has always been a part of the charm. In regards to umineko ep 8 manga and the additional info we were provided, I don't think any of that was actually necessary. Is it actually poor writing to leave things unexplained, as that was at least to some extent decision made by Ryu? We wouldn't have this discussion, or any discussion about umineko to be exact, if there wouldn't be things to talk about. Therefore I feel even bit hurt that things (for example Yasu, prime, etc...) were stated more clearly.

Now, you can say what you want about the structure of the story, and discuss whether it is better to leave things as implications or not, but at least it is a structure that forces people to think and form theories themselves. Stating things clearly is a big loss, and somehow feels like part of the story is ruined for me. I wonder if I am the only one who sees things from this perspective.

Personally I have always liked the way Yasu is described: she is a shady boy/girl, and even her involvement in prime is somewhat unclear. This naturally leads to everyone having different opinion about his personality and motivating factors. Even if one of the main lessons in the story is learning to forgive, where it is even implied that Yasu and her actions were "justified" or considered "okay"? Characters inside the narrative generally forgive her, but I don't think that anyone seems okay with plans of mass murder, even if he ever harbored those feelings in the first place. I believe the point was just to understand him. There always exists a certain tension between the characters, even between Battler and Beatrice, after Beatrice "switches sides".

About Kumasawa & co, I personally find Virgilia and her existence very interesting.

I mean, it is clear, that she was somewhat a mentor to Yasu, therefore Virgilia acts as a mentor to Beatrice, right? But even the fact that Virgilia assists beatrice in meta could be taken as implication about Kumasawa in the real world, metaphorically stating her involvement in the "crime". But Kumasawa ends up killed most of the time, and in our confessions is brutally backstabbed, even if Virgilia should be an loyal ally of Beatrice.

And second interesting notion is the title of the golden witch.

I don't know if someone has brought up this theory, but the title of the golden witch clearly belongs to the person that possesses the gold. When eva finds the gold, she becomes "the golden witch". When Ange receives the inheritance, she becomes "the golden witch". Now Virgilia is the former "golden witch". Wouldn't this imply that Kumasawa was the one that had access to the gold before Yasu?

And jeez, I can't even decide what to think about genji. He is described, at least in most of the interpretations and theories as emotionless robot, but then again, he clearly is against incest and is shown to question the decisions of kinzo.