Learning Japanese

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

One thing I've been wondering about lately is the development of the negative conditional (i.e. mizenkei + na) in Osaka-ben. The affirmative conditional is pretty straightforward: it's just "-tara" (also seen in Standard Japanese; mizenkei of past ending "-ta") with the "-ra" mora clipped off, but I can't figure out where the negative version comes from and haven't found a dictionary that'll tell me. Is it the mizenkei of the medieval negative ending "-nu"? Something else entirely?

Almost right. The "na" stemmed historically from "-ne" (-nu in Kateikei / conditional conjugation) in medieval Japanese.

noma - ne - ba => noma - na

Spoiler for Detailed Story:

Mizenkei originally means something not-yet-done (imperfect condition), and Kateikei, which is called Izenkei in an academic situation, does something already-done (perfect condition). Therefore, the following two had distinct meanings in Old/Medieval Japanese.

のまば noma - ba (if you will drink it)
のめば nome - ba (if you have drunk it)

のまなば noma - na - ba (if you won't drink it)
のまねば noma - ne - ba (if you haven't drunk it)

But as time passed, the difference disappeared, and the latter Izenkei survived as the sole conditional form. Western Japanese people have kept the ancient scent of ne-ba alive. By contrast, Tokyo dialect replaced the negative adverb "zu / nu" with "nai", which obtained i-adjective-like conjugations. Therefore, the same sentence can be expressed as のまなければ "noma - nakere - ba" in standard Japanese.

Generally speaking, dialects (Osaka, Kyoto, etc.) are considered to be more conservative and to preserve ancient characteristics better respectively than Tokyo dialect.

Originally Posted by Butternuts

btw does anyone know what youngsters these days use as slang...I don't have many young japanese friends, and school doesn't really teach "shortcuts".

俗語辞典 (zokugo jiten / slang dictionary) can help you. But I wish, though it might be selfish, learners learn graceful Japanese...

[Mystique]

Agreed, learning slang and the break-up of another language in a basic learning thread, kinda tosses things on its head.
My japanese friend, gave me an update on slang over there earlier this week.

"zenzen heiki yo" = i'm totally cool/fine.

The fact that "zenzen" which is usually associated with 'nai' is now being used 180 to mean 'very' is screwing with my mind so bad, i refuse to acknolowedge, it, lol.

It's amusing to be aware of, but no real need to use as is the case of most languages that aren't your native tongue that you wanna learn seriously.
There is an japanese otaku thread somewhere in this website tho, there's some more local stuff in there if you're interested butternuts, but let's try to keep this for general basic and textbook/classroom pointers, since not all of us are fortunate nor will really have a chance to learn/use Japanese slang anyways.
But then there's always our personal profile walls if anyone has more specific question or wants to branch into it even further.

(PS: It's all about the east coast, baby)

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Mystique

Agreed, learning slang and the break-up of another language in a basic learning thread, kinda tosses things on its head.
My japanese friend, gave me an update on slang over there earlier this week.

"zenzen heiki yo" = i'm totally cool/fine.

The fact that "zenzen" which is usually associated with 'nai' is now being used 180 to mean 'very' is screwing with my mind so bad, i refuse to acknolowedge, it, lol.

Heh. I use both "zenzen" and "zettai" in the positive sense all the time.

On the other hand, I correct people who use "sugoi" as an adverb, instead of "sugoku".

[RandomGuy]

Aaaaand not to double-post, but I'm kind of on the market for a new kanji dictionary for use as a desk reference. My old one is English-centric and basically Joyo-only, so that doesn't help me all that much anymore. And as much as I'd like to get all 15 volumes (or thereabouts) of the Morohashi Kanwa Jiten, I have neither the budget nor the shelf space for it.

The main two dictionaries I'm looking at are the Kanjigen and the Shin-Kangorin; both are fairly comparable, with the Kanjigen edging out Kangorin in terms of number of characters (17,000 vs. 14,000) and compounds (80,000 vs. 50,000), but with the Kangorin touting various supplemental features of use to Japanese high school students. Both supposedly conform to the most up-to-date JIS standards in terms of character forms and encoding.

If the native speakers on this thread (or anyone who happens to have experience with Kanji->Japanese dictionaries) could provide some advice, I'd be much appreciative.

[Dream]

i was wondering, if you were to write something like, eye
and want to say Eyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~

how would you write that with 目?
would it be repeat?

[richvh]

Originally Posted by Dream

i was wondering, if you were to write something like, eye
and want to say Eyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~

how would you write that with 目?
would it be repeat?

目ぇぇぇぇ or 目～～～～ or 目ーーーー are possibilities.

[kmns]

I came here by the key word of "macron", but after registration I was lost and could not find the thread. This may be not the proper thread, But please let me post my first message here. I think I had discussed the matter rather completely in the comments to the blog
http://shisaku.blogspot.com/2008/08/...n-decency.html
where the original essay contained the personal name with a macron-capped "o". I do not say I have a solution you can adopt right away. Rather you would be surprised to find the matter so complicated. I am not used writing in English. Please permit me for my impertinent expression if any.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by kmns

I came here by the key word of "macron", but after registration I was lost and could not find the thread. This may be not the proper thread, But please let me post my first message here. I think I had discussed the matter rather completely in the comments to the blog
http://shisaku.blogspot.com/2008/08/...n-decency.html
where the original essay contained the personal name with a macron-capped "o". I do not say I have a solution you can adopt right away. Rather you would be surprised to find the matter so complicated. I am not used writing in English. Please permit me for my impertinent expression if any.

I apologize for not reading the full length of your discourse with MTC, but it seems to me, from my point of view as a English/Chinese speaking Japanese learner, that this really is a problem of accuracy vs. utility.

While extended consonant sounds like そう are more accurately transcribed as "sou", English speakers (for which romanji was expressly designed to help) may not be able to approximate the pronunciation of the Japanese word in question. In order for English speakers to better pronounce the words, sometimes unusual romanizations are used such as "soh" or macrons are used.

The point is, while "Motowo" would be technically accurate, it is not as effective in fulfilling the role that romanji is supposed to serve, which is to help foreigners pronounce Japanese.

[Yaoi_Daisuki]

oh mine katakana is a real horror to me. i actually started learning those basic kanjis, i find them easier. (okay i cheated, i know chinese) i cant seems to knock katakana in my mind zz

[Animedevil]

Wohoo! I got on the course (which still appears to have some free spots heh... so guess I was nervous for nothing)
Been studying a bit on my own and atm I pretty much know Hiragana, soon to look up more on katakana...
So on to the question, should i practice writing the characters with a pen (I use a site with a .gif showing the stroke order etc. for every kana) as shown there or does hand-writing vary alot from say textbook font..? Cause some of those characters could be quite hard to write fast enough and still make them look alike.. thx for any help! : )

[Doughnuts]

You should follow the animated .gifs you're using, primarily for the stroke count. It'll give you a good idea on the direction an size of each stroke too, but you don't need to follow them exactly. I would probably look through different typefaces and see which most suits your handwriting, and base it on that. Just practice writing them out until you acheive a decent speed and the character looks alike.
Check http://www.wazu.jp/gallery/Fonts_Japanese.html for a bunch of different typefaces. I primarily use the EPSON 正楷書体Ｍ typeface as the basis for my handwriting when learning new kanji, but obviously not as neat. I've been writing English all my life and I can't even do that properly.
Japanese handwriting is rarely as tidy as you see in a typeface anyway. Sometimes you might even struggle to recognise kana, and bad written kanji can be painful. It's probably equally important to familiarise yourself with reading different typefaces, and if possible read some actual handwriting too, so when you do come accross it, it looks familiar (because it probably won't resemble a gothic font.)

Originally Posted by kmns

I came here by the key word of "macron", but after registration I was lost and could not find the thread. This may be not the proper thread, But please let me post my first message here. I think I had discussed the matter rather completely in the comments to the blog
http://shisaku.blogspot.com/2008/08/...n-decency.html
where the original essay contained the personal name with a macron-capped "o". I do not say I have a solution you can adopt right away. Rather you would be surprised to find the matter so complicated. I am not used writing in English. Please permit me for my impertinent expression if any.

I think the macron/apostrophe is necessary if the writer insists on using 'o' rather than 'wo'. For one, it helps in the pronunciation for anyone who is unfamiliar with Japanese phonetics. Nobody would normally guess from Motoo how it is actually spoken. Second, it helps with the pronunciation for people who ARE familiar with Japanese phonetics. If I saw motoo written, I'd assume もとお, because I'm unfamiliar with the name. The macron kinda reserves the original spelling in that, I now know how to write it back in kana even though it's an unfamiliar name. Your comparison to 大黒 is different, because the romanisation of Ooguro can easily be written back in kana.
I still think leaving the name as 'Motowo' would be preferred, but if it's going to be written like in the article, may aswell use the same macron that is in use for ん’ rather than introducing a new one.

[bungmonkey]

Can somebody explain the difference in usage of yameru, tomeru, and tomaru?

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by bungmonkey

Can somebody explain the difference in usage of yameru, tomeru, and tomaru?

Yameru（辞める・止める） Quit, cease
Tomeru(止める・留める・泊める）　Make it stop, button down/get noticed, have another person stay over (Influnce to another)
Tomaru(止まる・留まる・泊まる） Something stopped, Gotten noticed, stay over (Subject's action or behavior)

[Doughnuts]

Not sure the last post explained it very well.
Think of yameru as "to put an end to something", rather than to stop. "I tried to stop smoking", or "I can't stop watching anime" etc.
tomeru on the other hand, it to stop or "to halt" physical movement. "The car stopped at the lights", or "He stopped running" etc.
tomaru is the intransitive version of tomeru. I'm sure you know what intransitive means, if not you should really look into it. Also check 'yamu', which would be the same for yameru

There's no written difference between tomeru and yameru, which is where I think the confusion may come from. The only way to know how to pronounce it in that case is based on the context of the sentence.

[Mueti]

Originally Posted by Yaoi_Daisuki

oh mine katakana is a real horror to me. i actually started learning those basic kanjis, i find them easier. (okay i cheated, i know chinese) i cant seems to knock katakana in my mind zz

Yeah, I find Katakana to be the most irritating of the scriptures as well. Once I know a kanji it doesn't really pose much of a problem anymore, at least not after I encounter it in text a few times. But even after reading and writing every one of those damn angular Katakana-thingies many thousand times they still take longer to decipher than some Kanji I only ever saw, like, twice.

[bungmonkey]

Yeah I knew about tomaru and it's intransitiveness. I just decided to stick it in for good measure. thanks!

[Vexx]

I must admit.... I learn and forget my katakana every few months... it just refuses to latch into my neural clusters. I know my hiragana and a couple of hundred kanji... but those damned katakana laugh and run away every chance they get.

[KoiNoDensetsu]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I must admit.... I learn and forget my katakana every few months... it just refuses to latch into my neural clusters. I know my hiragana and a couple of hundred kanji... but those damned katakana laugh and run away every chance they get.

I don't know katakana yet (I've been studying my Japanese slowly; I don't have enough time), but it sounds like your going too fast. Try to only focus on a couple characters at a time. If you try studying too many at once, you'll eventually forget them.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by KoiNoDensetsu

I don't know katakana yet (I've been studying my Japanese slowly; I don't have enough time), but it sounds like your going too fast. Try to only focus on a couple characters at a time. If you try studying too many at once, you'll eventually forget them.

Not sure how that logic works, as if you learn a lot and keep on using/practicing them to keep them fresh in your brain, even from absolute beginners level, it'll stick. One of the best examples, is to get foreign menus in Japan that are full of katakana, and read off that.
Best bit is trying to figure out what english word it's supposed to be. :\

That or make like me and have weekly tests that count towards your final grade at uni
(nothing like a bit of pressure to make you remember)

Katakana is just obscure, even I have issues with it a times and a A4 sheet of katakana only words is enough to cause a meltdown in my brain. x.x

fun ones include, ソ　ノ　ン　ヌ　ム　マ
and so on.

Doesn't help that each character isn't so distinct as hiragana is, I kinda feel the shape of each sound has its own character with that alphabet.
Always made me wonder, if the Japanese ages agp deliberately decided
"hey foriegn words? Foriegn sounds? Apply this alphabet to everything gaijin?
Then let's make it as ugly and random as possible compated to our beautiful, flowing, gracefull hiragana.
(but then again, that just may be being a little bitter, although i thought this during my first year of studying it)

[rio]

Originally Posted by Mystique

Agreed, learning slang and the break-up of another language in a basic learning thread, kinda tosses things on its head.
My japanese friend, gave me an update on slang over there earlier this week.

"zenzen heiki yo" = i'm totally cool/fine.

The fact that "zenzen" which is usually associated with 'nai' is now being used 180 to mean 'very' is screwing with my mind so bad, i refuse to acknolowedge, it, lol.

When i heard the slang for the first time about 10 years ago,ALL they said 'zen zen OK'.

i was like

and remember my friend's teacher was angry about it