Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Fimbulvetr

So that girls grow up to be women is a belief rather than a fact? Am I missing something, or are you only baiting ..
But whatever. There was nothing ambiguous at all about what QB said, it was very clear: They will become witches.
He uses the word 'yagate': やがて (adv) before long; soon; at length
He doesn't speak of a possibility, he speaks of a fact, and even if it doesn't happen instantly, it will, eventually - as it says in the tl you posted.

An ego-maniacally villain who says "I will rule the world before long!" might also state it as a fact. He might even believe it as a fact.

Also, I did state earlier that this could be in reference to Walpurgis night. That magical girls will become witches at that time, or have a much greater chance to.

Edit: as it stands though, a magical girl has every chance of fighting and winning and having a life on the side for many years until their death (eventually they'll get old and slow enough that a witch will do them in). It's entirely possible. With the exception of the one that killed Mami (which was somehow different, but we're never told why), so far every witch and familiar has died rather easily.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Edit: as it stands though, a magical girl has every chance of fighting and winning and having a life on the side for many years until their death (eventually they'll get old and slow enough that a witch will do them in). It's entirely possible. With the exception of the one that killed Mami (which was somehow different, but we're never told why), so far every witch and familiar has died rather easily.

Yeah they never told us why that witch was apparently different from all the other ones. But I suppose it has to do with its separate forms? When Mami squeezed it, it came up with something coming out of the doll's mouth and surprised eaten Mami to death? Or maybe Homura was quoting that it was special compared to the other witches because it actually has quite a nasty surprise in store that she apparently knew since she already saw it in the future? Since magical girls usually see witches in one form, it would be quite a surprise to see another form of the witch.

[Solace]

Homura knew which witch was which. Mami's fighting style made her a poor match, especially if she guessed wrong. Remember that her "finishing move" can only fire once, it's not rapid fire. Assuming reload time, she couldn't keep up with how quickly the witch regenerated. I guess she could have used her unlimited gun thing, but that probably doesn't have the firepower to finish a witch off.

There's a lot of "woulda coulda shoulda" that we could speculate on but I think one of the key points of Mami's death was that even with advanced knowledge Homura couldn't prevent it. This ends up being reflected later on through other turning points in the story, like Sayaka becoming a Magical Girl.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Solace

There's a lot of "woulda coulda shoulda" that we could speculate on but I think one of the key points of Mami's death was that even with advanced knowledge Homura couldn't prevent it. This ends up being reflected later on through other turning points in the story, like Sayaka becoming a Magical Girl.

Mostly saying, if Homura succeeded in killing the witch without Mami dying, then Sayaka would not have possibly become a magical girl and still lived happily with her friend Madoka, and Madoka would not be pressured from Sayaka becoming a witch to make her own choice of becoming a magical girl that Kyubey wishfully wants to happen?

[Doddler]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

With the exception of the one that killed Mami (which was somehow different, but we're never told why), so far every witch and familiar has died rather easily.

It's possible that there is a difference between a witch that is created from a familiar and a witch that is created from a corrupt magical girl. The number of witches that exist seem to greatly outnumber the magical girls so I imagine the greater majority of witches come from familiars. Charlotte didn't seem that different aside from having multiple forms, but it could be that she was much stronger, and Homura is just kind of badass in her witch killing abilities.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Solace

Remember that her "finishing move" can only fire once, it's not rapid fire.

Not that I doubt you, but where was this said?

I've personally seen it as that she could fire all the normal shots she wants, some of which can be used to bind the target. Even if it regenerated, she could dodge and work on binding it again.

[Reckoner]

I think it is silly to boggle our minds too much with how fights play out in any sort of action series. Mami was surprised by the witch and got killed. It's that simple.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think it is silly to boggle our minds too much with how fights play out in any sort of action series. Mami was surprised by the witch and got killed. It's that simple.

This.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I doubt everyone could think clearly in a crisis.

If they all could, I have plenty of complaints about Sayaka's swordsmanship vs Kyoko.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Not that I doubt you, but where was this said?

I've personally seen it as that she could fire all the normal shots she wants, some of which can be used to bind the target. Even if it regenerated, she could dodge and work on binding it again.

Miyamoto: I like it better when fight scenes are not only tough, but also have their own merits and demerits and depends on each individual's tactics. For example, Mami can bring out a giant gun, but it is single-loaded, that's why she lost to the witch…
NewType: If she's able to rapid-fire, then she might not lose.
Miyamoto: Yes. Magical girls are not strong. Homura is only strong because of her special ability, but she's weak as a magical girl.

From a Newtype interview. It's listed here.

Basically Mami was caught off guard because her single shot finishing move didn't work and she couldn't react fast enough to use it again or bring out her other weapons. The witch was too fast due to instantly regenerating. Homura could handle it because of her special ability (time stop/teleport) and her personal arsenal allowed her to attack and evade at the same time.

If you notice the other girls can't attack and move around/defend/attack like Homura can. This might suggest that Magical Girls are limited in their ability to quickly shift from offense to defense, experience and strength depending of course.

[NaweG]

Originally Posted by SeaDoor

After reading all of this and getting very lost, I guess it means that there won't be a beach episode, huh?

I don't know, I could see them doing a real cliff hanger, and then suddenly for no particular reason everyone's at the beach, and talking about how things went after the fact. In fact there was a 12 month series about a guy who didn't need a sword because he was a sword that did exactly that about a certain battle..

Back on topic, which I believe is supposed to be centered around the episode (having seen a spoilers and speculation thread around here, one wonders) - I think that we have seen plenty of proof that QB is "lawful", but I still hold out hope that he will prove not to be a black villain, but at most a gray one.

I mean shoot, in Revelations we have an Angel of the Lord reaping people left and right... and I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be the good guy.

What I think is really interesting, though, was Madoka's reaction to Homura stopping her from becoming an MG. She didn't yell about how that would doom Sayaka, or hurt Sayaka, or express concern about QB. It's almost like she had been in a trance, and destroying QB woke her so that she just picked up at the point she'd been at earlier as if none of that had happened.

If that's the case, then who put her in the trance?

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"This country is mostly made up of white people, right? Then it only makes sense to call those who eventually become leaders, 'Ayrans'."

That's not close to what Kyubei said and you know it. Why are you doing this?

Maybe not instant, but given how long Mami and Kyoko seemed to have been at it, we're talking waiting a loooooong time, and hoping they don't die in the meantime.

Children take 15 years from birth to maturity. Throughout that time, they require the care and support of their parents. All the while hoping they don't die from one cause or another. Compared to that, what's the big deal if it takes even a decade or two for a magical girl to turn into a witch?
What Kyubei is doing can be compared to fish and insects that have lots of offspring but only a few reach maturity.

You want a gap? As I just said, how does your soul keep your body alive currently? Magic?

Where is my soul or yours located in the first place? Where are Kyoko's and Sayaka's? Can your soul be moved away from your body? Can theirs? See the difference now?

Even disregarding that, consider what the show has shown us:
1. Every magical girl has a Soul Gem.
2. If the Soul Gem is seperated from the magical girl by more than 100m, the magical girl drops dead.

If you do not wish to dispute these two items, is the following chain of reasoning valid?
1. There is a connection between the Soul Gem and the magical girl.
2. This connection is not in the form of a physical link.
3. This connection must be some form of wireless transmission.
4. This connection cannot use conventional energy sources. Those cannot change form like the Soul Gem can, not to mention have limited lifespan.
5. The only non-conventional energy source in this show is magic.
6. Therefore the connection between the Soul Gem and the body is maintained by magic.

Am I doing alright so far? Then let's add another item that the show showed us:
Use of magic darkens the Soul Gem.

Add that to the chain of reasoning:
7. Maintaining the connection between Soul Gem and the body darkens the Soul Gem.
8. As a result, simply living and not using magic otherwise still darkens the Soul Gem.

So, what's your problem with this chain of reasoning?

As a practical and pragmatic person, yes.
Even if we kill Kyube, so that we can feel all good about ourselves that we've vanquished a great evil...

We still have witches out there creating witches.

Then please continue defending him, because he needs a good lawyer now more than ever with the damming evidence piling up against him. And it's not only for his sake, it's for the good of everyone!

I don't know about you, but I have plenty of distractions in my life, and still manage time to think about things. I'd say you are fairly similar.

Are you sure you've properly categorized what are "things" and what are "distractions"? "Family" and "work" are both "important things" I'm sure you agree there, right? But plenty of people have used one as a distraction from dealing with the other, leading to its loss.
Like how a company's CEO concentrates on a complicated merger deal instead of really tackling his company's financial situation.
Or how a general is fiddling with the placement of an artillery regiment as if he was a Colniel when war bursts on his front.
Or how a girl is asked to wish for an impossible desire for herself and no one, including herself, is asking her to use it to save the world instead.
So, distractions can be more varied and distracting than you think.

Or as I said above, mistaken and/or stated as a belief; that's what he hopes or feels the way it should go.

Let's break down and analyse the consequences of what you're trying to say:
Kyubei says magical girls become witches. Hence the name.
The possible scenarios:
He knows what he's talking about: Then this is inevitable, any magical girl who avoids death will end up as a witch. This makes him evil. We can argue about it being a "necessary evil" elsewhere.
He doesn't know what he's talking about: Then he doesn't know how the system works. He's ignorant. Therefore we can't take his word on anything he said about magical girls and witches. As a result, we can no longer consider him a trustworthy source that doesn't lie.
At this point, I would say your opinion that we don't know enough to judge Kyubei as evil has reached the point where the alternative to him being evil is him being untrustworthy, ignorant and unreliable. Are you sure this is the appropriate position to place him in?

And one thing I hope you can clear up, what are you really arguing about? That Kyubei doesn't know magical girls can become witches? That he's wrong about it being a certainty?

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

tbh, i pretty much have found it rather obvious that mami was too shocked to make a move since ep. 3. it's like seeing a ghost face-to-face. and because you're too scared,you suddenly lost the ability to scream and just continue to stand there,peeing at your pants. XDDD

@NaweG i think QB put her in a trance. no proof yet though.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

That's not close to what Kyubei said and you know it. Why are you doing this?

Why are you so hostile? Seriously, what has so gotten under your skin that you're viewing everything I say, my own opinion, as a huge threat? Hostility gets us nowhere. Under normal circumstances, I might enjoy responding in kind, but the mods have told me not to respond to such blatant baiting.

So if you insist on responding this way, in order not to antagonize the mods, I will be unable to respond further.

Children take 15 years from birth to maturity. Throughout that time, they require the care and support of their parents. All the while hoping they don't die from one cause or another. Compared to that, what's the big deal if it takes even a decade or two for a magical girl to turn into a witch?
What Kyubei is doing can be compared to fish and insects that have lots of offspring but only a few reach maturity.

Well, I guess in Kyube's world, most "girls" die before reaching womanhood, then. Or at least, have a much greater risk of death, then growing up. Not unlike very poor 3rd world countries.

Where is my soul or yours located in the first place? Where are Kyoko's and Sayaka's? Can your soul be moved away from your body? Can theirs? See the difference now?

So, what's your problem with this chain of reasoning?

Oh, not much, other than the fact that it is an assumption. If it makes you feel better, the chain of reasoning is sound. It's just that it would technically be an opinion. I've done the same thing with various other points.

Then please continue defending him, because he needs a good lawyer now more than ever with the damming evidence piling up against him. And it's not only for his sake, it's for the good of everyone!

So, what would you do? Would you seek his demise? What would you do to handle the witches? Although I suppose you won't answer these questions, like you won't answer any others I've posed, so perhaps they are more rhetorical.

The net result would be dooming humanity to slow death by witch suicide. Unless one has a better idea, which so far, no one does. We could get a girl, or a chain of girls, to make wishes to fix the system. But that would be making them sacrifices, which generally runs contrary to the idealistic viewpoint espoused.

Let's break down and analyse the consequences of what you're trying to say:
Kyubei says magical girls become witches. Hence the name.
The possible scenarios:
He knows what he's talking about: Then this is inevitable, any magical girl who avoids death will end up as a witch. This makes him evil. We can argue about it being a "necessary evil" elsewhere.
He doesn't know what he's talking about: Then he doesn't know how the system works. He's ignorant. Therefore we can't take his word on anything he said about magical girls and witches. As a result, we can no longer consider him a trustworthy source that doesn't lie.

I'd think you'd know better than to commit a false dichotomy, especially when I already pointed out there are more than 2 alternatives. As long as you try to confine the conversation to just the binary choices you prefer, I'm afraid this conversation will go nowhere.

But for giggles, I'll put in another 3rd choice: He knows quite a bit about the system... but not everything. As was pointed out, he doesn't have a clue about where Madoka's power comes from. If he knew where girls' magic came from, he should have an idea of at least.

And one thing I hope you can clear up, what are you really arguing about? That Kyubei doesn't know magical girls can become witches? That he's wrong about it being a certainty?

That he has the mistaken belief that it is a certainty. Consider that a wish can supposedly turn Sayaka back to normal. As a result, Sayaka would grow up normal, and never become a witch, despite being a magical girl (albeit she's turning into one now). Still, the reasoning holds for any other magical girl, then. They can be made normal.

This would mean a magical girl would NOT grow up to become a witch.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That he has the mistaken belief that it is a certainty.

But he can't believe in such thing. Not when he know that Mami is dead. Or do you think QB know that she will be reborn?

In fact at first you argued that if QB's work is to create witches, than the show doing a poor job showing that. Unfortunately discussion somehow ended as pointless argument.

One possible explanation is that while his work as incubator can indeed be "to create witches from MG", we know nothing about his personal agenda. He easily can be unwilling to carry out his work, or even can be willing to sabotage it.

And we still have no proof that his work is "to create witches from MG".

[panzerfan]

Kitamura Eri, voice actress of Sayaka, posted thus on Twitter:

はぁ…久しぶりに涙が出る程悔しい気分になった。そんな時は部屋の床を一生懸命コロコロするんだ！そしてイ ラストのペン入れしないと〆切がヤバイ！！
この感情はもったいないから次の芝居に残そう、抑えろ自分！あ！少女漫画読もう( *｀ω´)

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Not sure what you're saying here. If we presume that he can't generate a new body unless the old one is killed, then a sufficient method for stopping him is locking him up. Of if we presume that his new body comes from whatever other world he comes from, then stopping him is a matter of blocking travel from that world.

The thing is, Homura was an unknown assailant to him. He had no way of knowing that he was 100% safe, especially since a magical girl was attacking him; one that he had no recollection of making. It must have been a truly "WTF!?" moment for him. Until an unknown assailant's abilities are fully known, one can't assume they are 100% safe. Kyube would have only known later.

Unkillable, is not the same as unstoppable. And for all we know, Kyube is killable, say if he has a limited number of bodies.

Hell, physics would tell us he does. If he's made from materials, then those materials can be exhausted. Hence, his eating of the old body sends those materials back; in essence, recycling. What if you keep killing him and prevent him from getting to his corpses?

A valid point. However, this does not explain why he called upon two at that stage normal girls for help. It is that point that makes the entire issue deceit. This was not even an issue of needing magical girls to fight witches, this was an internal struggle that required no intervention of the two, and indeed their actions proved to be most futile.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Most knowledgeable != all knowledgeable. He doesn't know where Madoka's power comes from, after all. So it's been established that there are things he doesn't know.

And until you can prove that his claim is false, this argument holds no water. Kyuubei has said magical girls turn into witches. Logic dictates that until contrary evidence surfaces, this is to be taken as fact.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Possibly, but I added another interpretation to Kyube's words above, in a post edit. You might have missed it, so I'll repost here:

This is what Kyube says: "This country calls growing women 'girls' right? Then it only makes sense to call those who will eventually become witches 'magical girls.'"

Let me say it another way: "This country is mostly made up of white people, right? Then it only makes sense to call those who eventually become leaders, 'Ayrans'."

That is nowhere close to what Kyuubei said. You are twisting his words to suit your needs (badly, I might add) in order to represent a point more in your favor. You cannot simply change evidence when it doesn't suit your needs, not without conclusive proof that your vastly different interpretation holds water, which in this case it most certainly doesn't. There is no evidence whatsoever that this was merely a belief, and Sayaka's turning only serves to support Kyuubei's words.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Kitamura Eri, voice actress of Sayaka, posted thus on Twitter:

So, what is she saying?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

A valid point. However, this does not explain why he called upon two at that stage normal girls for help. It is that point that makes the entire issue deceit. This was not even an issue of needing magical girls to fight witches, this was an internal struggle that required no intervention of the two, and indeed their actions proved to be most futile.

He wants Madoka, remember? He had to have scouted her before. I believe the argument was made before that Homura attacked Kyube when she saw that he planned to go after Madoka. So, in Kyube's mind, it's possible that he was simply calling people he would have contacted anyway.

With an unknown assailant (that can riddle your body with bullets before you know what happened), Mami very well might not have been enough. But maybe Mami could have held off the assailant long enough for Kyube to create two more MGs.

Yes, just speculation, but that's all it needs to be.

And until you can prove that his claim is false, this argument holds no water. Kyuubei has said magical girls turn into witches. Logic dictates that until contrary evidence surfaces, this is to be taken as fact.

Not quite. I just need to introduce a plausible alternative to show that there isn't just one explanation. I've done that. It's no different than assuming Kyube is a hellspawn of Satan.

That is nowhere close to what Kyuubei said. You are twisting his words to suit your needs (badly, I might add) in order to represent a point more in your favor. You cannot simply change evidence when it doesn't suit your needs, not without conclusive proof that your vastly different interpretation holds water, which in this case it most certainly doesn't. There is no evidence whatsoever that this was merely a belief, and Sayaka's turning only serves to support Kyuubei's words.

Any assumption of twisting is being pedantic. I only wanted to show that a statement could be construed as a belief, instead of a fact, just to show that there is more than one way of looking at it. You are welcome to view it however you wish; I just add more options to the table so everyone else can decide which they want to go with. Or perhaps not make any choice at all.

[Seihai]

Allow me to reply to the following.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Why are you so hostile?

I'd call it stubbornness in each of your cases. Either way not good for the mods though, agreed.

So, what would you do? Would you seek his demise? What would you do to handle the witches? Although I suppose you won't answer these questions, like you won't answer any others I've posed, so perhaps they are more rhetorical.

You must have lost count in how many times you have asked that question now. Have you actually ever gotten a plausible answer yet? Suffice to say, most (including myself and yourself) wouldn't know an alternative. Maybe there is no alternative. But then you could say that the system still isn't fine as it is, and it should be fixed. We shouldn't skip this question but we do exactly because we don't know and because it's more convenient for next-level discussion. For example: what are Kyubei's ulterior motives and what would happen if he reached his goals? Why discuss general things when we can discuss things we have (more or less) info about? Not saying the former isn't important.

But for giggles, I'll put in another 3rd choice: He knows quite a bit about the system... but not everything. As was pointed out, he doesn't have a clue about where Madoka's power comes from. If he knew where girls' magic came from, he should have an idea of at least.

Well, Madoka isn't exactly part of the system (yet). As her current status, she's just a normal girl.

Consider that a wish can supposedly turn Sayaka back to normal. As a result, Sayaka would grow up normal, and never become a witch, despite being a magical girl (albeit she's turning into one now). Still, the reasoning holds for any other magical girl, then. They can be made normal.

This would mean a magical girl would NOT grow up to become a witch.

While the wish is more or less part of the system, it's still too convenient of an argument I think. With a wish, nothing is certain anymore. I evaluate that MGs normally "die" by the hands of a witch, or by turning into one themselves. You can say that MGs don't become witches if a wish can reverse it. But then you can also say that: people don't die if you wish someone to be immortal. Or that boys don't become men if you wish a boy to turn into a girl. Or that pigs can fly if you wish a pig to have usable wings. Etc. etc... just because you could change something with a wish doesn't mean it also changes normality of a natural fact. And according to Kyubei, it is not unusual that MGs turn into witches like growing girls would turn into women. Or?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Vanish

You must have lost count in how many times you have asked that question now. Have you actually ever gotten a plausible answer yet?
Suffice to say, most (including myself and yourself) wouldn't know an alternative. Maybe there is no alternative. But then you could say that the system still isn't fine as it is, and it should be fixed.

Never gotten an answer, heh. The funny things, I have put forth answers: Use the wish system to fix it. It might still damn some girls, but there's considerably less loss of life in the long run. The other option we learned in this episode: Have Madoka fix it.

But I will agree the system isn't perfect, and could definitely use fixing. Unfortunately, as the saying goes, "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might wish to have." Reality doesn't always allow perfect choices.

We shouldn't skip this question but we do exactly because we don't know and because it's more convenient for next-level discussion. For example: what are Kyubei's ulterior motives and what would happen if he reached his goals? Why discuss general things when we can discuss things we have (more or less) info about? Not saying the former isn't important.

I wouldn't say skipping it, but I'm not preventing people from discussing other aspects, either. They are just as much up for discussion, for those inclined.

As for Kyube's goals, it's really hard to say, because in the strictest sense of the terms, his words can be seen from different angles, and he seems to lack human values and emotions, so it can't be for the lulz, nor possibly for the good of humanity. I'm hard-pressed to even imagine him having a selfish reason. He looks to me more and more as just a part of the system himself, created to fulfill a specific goal. So the real questions to me are: Who started the system, and what were their intentions behind all this?

That person would be the ultimate good or evil.

Well, Madoka isn't exactly part of the system (yet). As her current status, she's just a normal girl.

True, but I feel it is splitting hairs. Kyube knows in advance an individual girl's ability for magical power is, so they don't have to be part of the system yet for him to get some read on them.

While the wish is more or less part of the system, it's still too convenient of an argument I think. With a wish, nothing is certain anymore.

Ironically, this has been my argument since I started here; with the wish system as is, anything can be changed at almost any time. And not through any real effort of the characters themselves; just someone deciding to make a wish. The only thing stopping this, is that the series is focusing on so few characters, and apparently only some girl's have the potential to be MG's.

I evaluate that MGs normally "die" by the hands of a witch, or by turning into one themselves. You can say that MGs don't become witches if a wish can reverse it. But then you can also say that: people don't die if you wish someone to be immortal. Or that boys don't become men if you wish a boy to turn into a girl. Or that pigs can fly if you wish a pig to have usable wings. Etc. etc... just because you could change something with a wish doesn't mean it also changes normality of a natural fact. And according to Kyubei, it is not unusual that MGs turn into witches like growing girls would turn into women. Or?

I see your point, but we don't have wishes in this world. So just the fact that the wish system exists and there are no limits technically stated, means that any "fact" is in flux, by that virtue alone. Hell, Madoka can supposedly rewrite the laws of nature; she could probably prevent magical girls from "growing up" into witches all be herself. Or choose to rewrite it so they grow up into magical women. Or good witches.