Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

And yeah, that always seems to be the case with her. Tragedy is her game. But if nothing else she's a firm-minded individual.

True. Shirley was meant to be a tragic character {like a lot charas in Geass, seems to be a fetish} from pretty much every aspect.
I never thought i could say this, but i think, these poems, pretty much gave the missing puzzles of every's girl relationship with Lelouch.

As Shirley says, in the poem there is that un-reachable gap between her and Lelouch. Slipping-glass, is pretty much the best way to describe it.
I believe, after the Mao-Shirley arc, Shirley+Lelouch as a romantic couple, became highly unlikely.
First, because Shirley was not a main chara and second, cause it seems that Lelouch, gave up on his "don't know" feelings about her, in the end of episode 14. {-- as he replied to C.C and Shirley} What mattered more, is that he lost a friend.
R2, just came to confirm that "reincarnation" theme that is revolving around them.

I like being honest and open-minded with ships, preference is irrelevant, i think in the end, Shirlulu was mostly {if not only} one-sided. And this is the feeling that you get from Shirley's poem as well. She will continue to love him un-conditionally, even if she knows that this gap, will never close.

Generally, i do not think that Shirley's poem was mostly about "regret", it was more of like, moment of clarity. In the end, she realized that Lelouch's Geass, when he "had" to use it on his loved people was a gentle one. That he wanted to protect them, and her as well.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

True. Shirley was meant to be a tragic character {like a lot charas in Geass, seems to be a fetish} from pretty much every aspect.
I never thought i could say this, but i think, these poems, pretty much gave the missing puzzles of every's girl relationship with Lelouch.

As Shirley says, in the poem there is that un-reachable gap between her and Lelouch. Slipping-glass, is pretty much the best way to describe it.
I believe, after the Mao-Shirley arc, Shirley+Lelouch as a romantic couple, became highly unlikely.
First, because Shirley was not a main chara and second, cause it seems that Lelouch, gave up on his "don't know" feelings about her, in the end of episode 14. {-- as he replied to C.C and Shirley} What mattered more, is that he lost a friend.
R2, just came to confirm that "reincarnation" theme that is revolving around them.

I like being honest and open-minded with ships, preference is irrelevant, i think in the end, Shirlulu was mostly {if not only} one-sided. And this is the feeling that you get from Shirley's poem as well. She will continue to love him un-conditionally, even if she knows that this gap, will never close.

Generally, i do not think that Shirley's poem was mostly about "regret", it was more of like, moment of clarity. In the end, she realized that Lelouch's Geass, when he "had" to use it on his loved people was a gentle one. That he wanted to protect them, and her as well.

I have to say that is an excellent analysis. As you said Shirlulu was mostly, if not entirely, one-sided on Shirley's part but I still try to remain optimistic about the ship. This "gap that could not be closed" certainly was present, but I like to believe that it was mostly circumstantial. Shirley loved Lelouch, but the romance could not progress on Lelouch's end due to the path he had taken.

This is also why I think they threw in the reincarnation element, showing that, while perhaps they could not be together in this life, maybe they can be together in some other life where circumstances allow. Until that day, Shirley will continue to love/pursue Lelouch. I think it's quite touching.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I said Lelouch smiled before Suzaku brought him to Charles.
Since his father was his nemesis, of course it was the "ultimate betrayal", but Lelouch killed Euphie, and he isn't that much of a hypocrite that he would consciously condemn Suzaku's actions in this case.

That said though, judging from Suzaku's inner monologue from Picture Drama 23.95, he seemed to have an idea that Lelouch's actions (barring Euphie, but Suzaku didn't know the circumstances there) at the time were a result of his tainted childhood, owing mainly to the Emperor. While Suzaku wasn't necessarily wrong to hold resentment against Lelouch, turning him over to the Emperor was very counter-productive.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I have to say that is an excellent analysis. As you said Shirlulu was mostly, if not entirely, one-sided on Shirley's part but I still try to remain optimistic about the ship. This "gap that could not be closed" certainly was present, but I like to believe that it was mostly circumstantial. Shirley loved Lelouch, but the romance could not progress on Lelouch's end due to the path he had taken.

This is also why I think they threw in the reincarnation element, showing that, while perhaps they could not be together in this life, maybe they can be together in some other life where circumstances allow. Until that day, Shirley will continue to love/pursue Lelouch. I think it's quite touching.

It is a bit tricky. Circumstances that involved Shirley's father made Lelouch to get closer to her, then Viletta got involved for the Zero-exposing to happen and then we all know the story.
It is a chain of circumstances that only do harm to this couple.

I do agree about the reincarnation theme though, even Lelouch's cut line in S1-14, was about that. They could have been something more, just not in "that" world, that was defined by Lelouch's Zero persona.
That of course does not lessen some epic scenes between them, angsty+sweet as well. In R2-12 especially, it kinda showed a glimpse of that "what if" about Shirley and Lulu.

But oh well, tragic characters are tragic. Nothing you can do about it. :x

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

It is a bit tricky. Circumstances that involved Shirley's father made Lelouch to get closer to her, then Viletta got involved for the Zero-exposing to happen and then we all know the story.
It is a chain of circumstances that only do harm to this couple.

I do agree about the reincarnation theme though, even Lelouch's cut line in S1-14, was about that. They could have been something more, just not in "that" world, that was defined by Lelouch's Zero persona.
That of course does not lessen some epic scenes between them, angsty+sweet as well. In R2-12 especially, it kinda showed a glimpse of that "what if" about Shirley and Lulu.

Oh yeah, well they had to have some kind of epic scenes, otherwise there's no Shirlulu. And hey, if Kalulu fans are going to take the "gumline" as evidence, than I'm going to take the cut line from S1-14 as the strongest evidence that Lelouch could have returned her feelings and their could have been something. But again, circumstances.

But oh well, tragic characters are tragic. Nothing you can do about it. :x

True that. *nods* True that.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Oh yeah, well they had to have some kind of epic scenes, otherwise there's no Shirlulu. And hey, if Kalulu fans are going to take the "gumline" as evidence, than I'm going to take the cut line from S1-14 as the strongest evidence that Lelouch could have returned her feelings and their could have been something.

Was that line cut? What I know is it wasn't said, I do not think it was cut I think it was left like that on purpose. I could be wrong though.

I'm going to throw this opinion in there, but I think the poem while showing how much Shirley loved Lelouch, also shows that Lelouch and Shirley probably never had a future together, geass or not. Because, for all his life, he had intended to be Zero and to have his rebellion.

Oh well, Kallen and Shirley can fight over him in C.C.'s dreams and the World of C. I wonder who'll win, the tsundere or the high-school crush.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Was that line cut? What I know is it wasn't said, I do not think it was cut I think it was left like that on purpose. I could be wrong though.

I believe it was said by Shirley's seiyuu that that's how the line would have ended. I don't have the exact source so I can't refer to it, but that's what I've heard.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I believe it was said by Shirley's seiyuu that that's how the line would have ended. I don't have the exact source so I can't refer to it, but that's what I've heard.

To my knowledge it was just how she thought it ended, I don't remember the interview anymore. I do not think anything was actually cut. (Check edit and bite my head off. *prepares for the worst*)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Was that line cut? What I know is it wasn't said, I do not think it was cut I think it was left like that on purpose. I could be wrong though.

I'm going to throw this opinion in there, but I think the poem while showing how much Shirley loved Lelouch, also shows that Lelouch and Shirley probably never had a future together, geass or not. Because, for all his life, he had intended to be Zero and to have his rebellion.

Oh well, Kallen and Shirley can fight over him in C.C.'s dreams and the World of C. I wonder who'll win, the tsundere or the high-school crush.

Wouldn't Shirley be with Lelouch, or is C only for Geass holders?

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by azul120

Wouldn't Shirley be with Lelouch, or is C only for Geass holders?

No clue.

I was going on the NT story where Shirley, Kallen, and Lelouch are in school.

As for the World of C, well frankly, its going to be a lot of people with Lelouch if its anyone but I'd imagine its anyone and everyone. Rolo, Euphemia, Shirley, Mama, Papa, Kallen's bro, and so on. When Kallen eventually joins them there'll be even more. Could lead to some hilarity... or something?

Kallen to Shirley: "Alright, you've had him for 70 years. He's mine now."

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

To my knowledge it was just how she thought it ended, I don't remember the interview anymore. I do not think anything was actually cut. (Check edit and bite my head off. *prepares for the worst*)

Uh, it just seems like it's the blind leading the blind here. Look, all I know is that's what I've heard. If someone wants to come in here with the official source and clarify it, fine by me. Either way Shirlulu is still going to be my OTP.

EDIT: Ha ha, I didn't even see your full post before you edited it FF. Well, as you said Lelouch and Shirley's relationship was most likely doomed due to his becoming Zero. Again, circumstances that prevented it.

And your World of C idea is quite amusing. That'll be the sequel to Code Geass.

"After all the angst and drama that was Code Geass, Sunrise brings you the hilarious sequel: Lelouch and Co.'s Adventures in the World of C. See Kallen and Shirley fight over who will get Lelouch. See Suzaku and Euphemia cope with the fact they have no physical body and how it impacts their relationship. See Rolo and Nunnally's intense sibling rivalry. It's all good clean fun in Lelouch in Co.'s Adventures in the World of C. Coming in 2010."

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Oh yeah, well they had to have some kind of epic scenes, otherwise there's no Shirlulu. And hey, if Kalulu fans are going to take the "gumline" as evidence, than I'm going to take the cut line from S1-14 as the strongest evidence that Lelouch could have returned her feelings and their could have been something. But again, circumstances.


True that. *nods* True that.

Haha, i do not think Kalulu fans need "gumline" as evidence any more. They have the most controversial poem, because let us admit, all of the other poems do not include Lelouch's feelings, while with Kallen's, you can point out and say that "this is not her own thought here, even if it seems that this is the case." {not to mention, character song and newtype booklet, i am stating these as well, cause a certain someone might want to repeat them. |D}

It is just that Kalulu developed in a more "natural" and smooth way than Shirlulu. {should i say something about CCxLulu here as well? I could use her poem as basis but let's leave it for now}
If Lelouch was to let someone in, in a romantic way, then that would only be one of those people that are close to him, both in real life and in combat field. Circumstances or not, Kallen was the only one "qualifying" for that.
Add to all the things, her devotion, loyalty, admiration yadda yadda towards him and keep in mind the sexual attraction as well, it is not that difficult to start developing feelings for someone like this.
Granted, Kallen developed scary-love feelings about him, but Lelouch at some point, returned those feelings. That point, being the infamous-kiss scene.
The catch here is, that Kallen is not the main female character. Her development in R2, could have "stamped" her in some way like the main female {screw the jail episodes as well} but, still, a lot of people considered C.C as the main female character, and frankly, that is her supposed role but let's not go into the shaft-mode she was forced to get into.
Ranks like these, main, secondary chara etc tend to confuse.

Anyway, out of the point, i think some of my buddies in LJ, had done a post about the Shirley-cut-line, let me search on the archive a bit and i will update if i find it.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Haha, i do not think Kalulu fans need "gumline" as evidence any more. They have the most controversial poem, because let us admit, all of the other poems do not include Lelouch's feelings, while with Kallen's, you can point out and say that "this is not her own thought here, even if it seems that this is the case." {not to mention, character song and newtype booklet, i am stating these as well, cause a certain someone might want to repeat them. |D}

Well, they certainly did talk about the gumline enough for the time being. Seriously, every other post it was gumline, gumline, gumline, gumline. And I'm perfectly aware of all the other evidence and what it insinuates and I'm not going to deny it's existence *grumble grumble*

It is just that Kalulu developed in a more "natural" and smooth way than Shirlulu. {should i say something about CCxLulu here as well? I could use her poem as basis but let's leave it for now}
If Lelouch was to let someone in, in a romantic way, then that would only be one of those people that are close to him, both in real life and in combat field. Circumstances or not, Kallen was the only one "qualifying" for that.
Add to all the things, her devotion, loyalty, admiration yadda yadda towards him and keep in mind the sexual attraction as well, it is not that difficult to start developing feelings for someone like this.
Granted, Kallen developed scary-love feelings about him, but Lelouch at some point, returned those feelings. That point, being the infamous-kiss scene.
The catch here is, that Kallen is not the main female character. Her development in R2, could have "stamped" her in some way like the main female {screw the jail episodes as well} but, still, a lot of people considered C.C as the main female character, and frankly, that is her supposed role but let's not go into the shaft-mode she was forced to get into.
Ranks like these, main, secondary chara etc tend to confuse.

Well naturally. Kallen certainly played a bigger part in Lelouch's life than Shirley and thus it would be easier to form a relationship/attraction to her. Whereas Shirley was just a part of his Ashford life, Kallen was practically his right hand man, er, woman and got to play a big part in a lot of his critical choices and poignant moments. Yes, it's true that C.C. probably was, in the end, closer to Lelouch and knew more about him, but their relationship just didn't go in that direction, whereas with Kallen it did.

Anyway, out of the point, i think some of my buddies in LJ, had done a post about the Shirley-cut-line, let me search on the archive a bit and i will update if i find it.

Would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Lolipopo]

Somehow, it's like trying to climb glass. Until the end, you only ended up slipping through my hands.

This is the feeling I always got with Shirley and Lulu.
And to see her express that in her poem...it's really sad.

I second Sky there, tragic character are tragic.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

That said though, judging from Suzaku's inner monologue from Picture Drama 23.95, he seemed to have an idea that Lelouch's actions (barring Euphie, but Suzaku didn't know the circumstances there) at the time were a result of his tainted childhood, owing mainly to the Emperor. While Suzaku wasn't necessarily wrong to hold resentment against Lelouch, turning him over to the Emperor was very counter-productive.

I agree with that, but Suzaku is not the most sane character around, either, so it was to be expected.
I doubt Lelouch blamed him for what he did - not on a rational level. Still, Euphie's death and Suzaku's betrayal of Lelouch to the Emperor, of all people, probably hurt their bond more than anything else.




Anyway, I really like Shirley's poem.
Thanks for sharing. *nods her head*

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Shirley's poem is up and fully translated. Since it mainly has to do with romance I...well no, I give the credit to sky...thought it would make sense to post it in the romance thread. Also the credit for first posting it and providing the translated poem goes to blotty. Thanks blotty!

Spoiler for Shirley's Poem:

O2 - Shirley

Morning and night, I have always thought of you.
It's mysterious.
Even though that memory should have been taken by you.
There was a stirring in my chest that keeps reverberating.
Without knowing, I would come back to the same place.

When my memories returned, I was dreadfully frightened.

You making lies all the time, I have thought that I detested it.
But, I realized. You were protecting me.

A gentle lie.
A gentle geass.

I know. You have stripped yourself of kindness.
Given it to others.
And then, you continued to fight on your own.
That's why, I alone thought of wanting to protect you, Lulu.

Somehow, it's like trying to climb glass. Until the end, you only ended up slipping through my hands. (1)

No matter how many times I am reborn, I will definitely fall in love with you, Lulu. (2)
Even if the world may rot away, that much will not change.

(1) The exact words used are 'surechigau' - something like, so 'near yet so far'; missing each other on the way; one turns left, the other turns right
(2) suki ni naru

Somehow, it's like trying to climb glass. Until the end, you only ended up slipping through my hands.
This line took me a while to figure out. See if I'm right in this line of thinking: Glass=slippery. Shirley is trying to catch up to Lelouch but she keeps slipping down that slope. And when she does catch up, he's already gone.

There's also another version of that line I considered, which is more close to the original Japanese text:
Somehow, it's like trying to climb glass. Until the end, we only passed by each other.

Just wanted to point out that the beginning of Shirley's poem starts with 'asa mo yoru mo...' just like the song, O2.

Beautiful, no?

I need a hanky now..... Beautiful indeed. Dear Shirley.....Faithful to the end no matter what.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

I have to say that is an excellent analysis. As you said Shirlulu was mostly, if not entirely, one-sided on Shirley's part but I still try to remain optimistic about the ship. This "gap that could not be closed" certainly was present, but I like to believe that it was mostly circumstantial. Shirley loved Lelouch, but the romance could not progress on Lelouch's end due to the path he had taken.

This is also why I think they threw in the reincarnation element, showing that, while perhaps they could not be together in this life, maybe they can be together in some other life where circumstances allow. Until that day, Shirley will continue to love/pursue Lelouch. I think it's quite touching.

Which gives me great comfort that at least they're together now since an afterlife apparently does exist in CG.

No clue.

I was going on the NT story where Shirley, Kallen, and Lelouch are in school.

As for the World of C, well frankly, its going to be a lot of people with Lelouch if its anyone but I'd imagine its anyone and everyone. Rolo, Euphemia, Shirley, Mama, Papa, Kallen's bro, and so on. When Kallen eventually joins them there'll be even more. Could lead to some hilarity... or something?

Kallen to Shirley: "Alright, you've had him for 70 years. He's mine now."

Sunrise should make this the sequel if they're planning any. Would fit CLAMP's productions too.

[yvj]

That Shirley poem is sad as heck.

Takes me back to her death which was one of the highlights of the show (artistically). Great scene tugged at the heartstrings.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

As Shirley says, in the poem there is that un-reachable gap between her and Lelouch. Slipping-glass, is pretty much the best way to describe it.
I believe, after the Mao-Shirley arc, Shirley+Lelouch as a romantic couple, became highly unlikely.
First, because Shirley was not a main chara and second, cause it seems that Lelouch, gave up on his "don't know" feelings about her, in the end of episode 14. {-- as he replied to C.C and Shirley} What mattered more, is that he lost a friend.
R2, just came to confirm that "reincarnation" theme that is revolving around them.

I quoted just this part of your post but it was overall a very nice analisys, I agree.

Lelouch had used with Shirley the same 'manipulative tenderness' he had used with his sister several times, but in the moment she realized that, she did not felt manipulated but protected, and tried her best to be the one able to protect him.. dear generous Shirley....;_;
thanks for sharing guys ^ ^

[sparkle_14310]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Haha, i do not think Kalulu fans need "gumline" as evidence any more. They have the most controversial poem, because let us admit, all of the other poems do not include Lelouch's feelings, while with Kallen's, you can point out and say that "this is not her own thought here, even if it seems that this is the case." {not to mention, character song and newtype booklet, i am stating these as well, cause a certain someone might want to repeat them. |D}

It is just that Kalulu developed in a more "natural" and smooth way than Shirlulu. {should i say something about CCxLulu here as well? I could use her poem as basis but let's leave it for now}
If Lelouch was to let someone in, in a romantic way, then that would only be one of those people that are close to him, both in real life and in combat field. Circumstances or not, Kallen was the only one "qualifying" for that.
Add to all the things, her devotion, loyalty, admiration yadda yadda towards him and keep in mind the sexual attraction as well, it is not that difficult to start developing feelings for someone like this.
Granted, Kallen developed scary-love feelings about him, but Lelouch at some point, returned those feelings. That point, being the infamous-kiss scene.
The catch here is, that Kallen is not the main female character. Her development in R2, could have "stamped" her in some way like the main female {screw the jail episodes as well} but, still, a lot of people considered C.C as the main female character, and frankly, that is her supposed role but let's not go into the shaft-mode she was forced to get into.
Ranks like these, main, secondary chara etc tend to confuse.

Anyway, out of the point, i think some of my buddies in LJ, had done a post about the Shirley-cut-line, let me search on the archive a bit and i will update if i find it.

I agree people say Kalulu is just based on a gumline but it wasn't they ahve more development than Shirlulu not that I have anything against Shirlulu personally.

Oh and can someone please re-post Kallen's Poem. Please.