2010-03-16, 21:24 | Link #6621 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I can see her being the current Beatrice but not the one back then. Even Kumasawa would make more sense as old Beatrice. That is if you want to play with red text.
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2010-03-16, 21:26 | Link #6622 | |||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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So I repeat: your idea that Virgilia isn't a witch doesn't have any basis, you haven't provided any. The only think you "proved" is that it's "not impossible". Well that's not hard, my example of Genji being a transexual is also something "not impossible". But what I require is a reason. Quote:
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In the end there are no more reasons to doubt Virgilia/Kumasawa is a witch than there are about Maria, Ange, Beatrice and Eva to be witches. Quote:
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Second: Beatrice was defined as furniture, so why you don't suspect that Beatrice isn't a witch either? Quote:
P.S. Why are you fighting so hard to win such a lost cause that isn't really useful to explain anything about the game? I don't even think you actually believe it yourself. Why would Ryukishi confuses about the meaning of "witch" by making Beatrice say that Kumasawa is a witch while she's not? And if it is just for your sad past theory, you could say that maybe Kumasawa actually had a sad past, that would make a lot more sense.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-03-16 at 21:43. |
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2010-03-16, 21:31 | Link #6623 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I said that Shannon is the Beato we see in the EP 3 dream. She was living in the Kuwadorian for some time, but worked at the main mansion. Shipments don't need to be made to the Kuwadorian because Shannon doesn't live there secretly. Its possible that all the -on servants live in the Kuwadorian. |
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2010-03-16, 21:38 | Link #6624 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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I mean, do you honestly believe Shannon to be incapable of love without random acts of ritual? She isn't that messed up. If she is, you can basically dismiss far too much with "BECAUSE SHE'S CRAZY!" I just can't really accept that. I want to think she knows what she's doing, and the metaphor and ritual is designed to present her feelings to [Meta-]Battler, not reveal the depths to which she is completely twisted and nuts. |
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2010-03-16, 21:44 | Link #6625 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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@Chronotrig: One thing I don't get in your theory is that if ANGE is a witch because she believes in lies and has a tragic past why can she break Beatrice's rules about reviving Sakutarou? It seems that she somehow got past that didn't she?
There is a clearly a difference between a dark witch and the latter as is demonstrated in episodes 3 and 4. The dark witch lies and follows weird rules the white witch doesn't. In fact ANGE Beatrice ignores the rules to make people happy. Unless you think that is completely different magic? At one point Virgilia and Battler use something like that as an argument for why Beato isn't a real witch.
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2010-03-16, 21:46 | Link #6626 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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If we believe the anime, Sakutarou's "death" (his destruction by Rosa) may well have been a lie unto itself, "black magic" conjured up by Maria to justify feelings of hatred for her mother. ANGE's magic could just as easily have been truth: That he wasn't destroyed.
Someone ages back suggested Maria had just lost him on the boat and made up the story about Rosa destroying him. That might have actually been true. Depends how reliable a source you consider the show. |
2010-03-16, 21:48 | Link #6627 | |
Senior Member
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2010-03-16, 21:58 | Link #6628 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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but his theory is magic = lies so it can't at the same time be magic = exposing lies
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-03-16 at 22:08. |
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2010-03-16, 22:13 | Link #6629 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PA
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Meh honestly in regards to Rosa. I know in the end part of the happy end will be Maria gaining her mothers love... but honestly Rosa doesn't deserve a happy end as far as I'm concerned. She should either be killed or Maria should be put in a better home away from her evil, wiolent, un-loving bitch of a mother.
But then again I can't expect good things like that to happen I suppose. The happy end will be everyone getting what they want. Just like Higurashi. |
2010-03-16, 22:42 | Link #6631 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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There is no happy end in Umineko. Ryukishi said that he's going for a bitter sweet ending. And with all that's happened in the episodes after the ones you've read I don't see Umineko as "fighting fate can lead to the end where everybody is happy" like in Higurashi. The goal in Higurashi was for Rika who was wandering the different Kakera's to reach a happy end by fighting fate. In Higurashi people could remember the past scenarios so they had a way to do that. The goal in Umineko is to realize the truth. None of the characters on the game board remembers the past games. So there is now way they can break the loop. (and the games are most likely fictional narratives within the fiction anyway) knowing the truth in Umineko doesn't mean that by knowing it that you can stop the murders because Battler on the game board can't stop the murders he can only investigate them. The end will happen when the case is solved and the answer to how the Rokkenjima accident happened is revealed. That doesn't mean Battler is going to stop them from happening it's just that it will be revealed in 1998 how they happened. And Unless Battler = Amakusa there isn't going be a big brother returning to Ange
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2010-03-16, 22:46 | Link #6632 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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@Judoh:
Spoiler for size:
Also, there still is at least some chance for a happy ending. For example, if Umineko turns out to be based on the kakera system, it might be that this game is just searching for a certain kakera where no one dies. If Battler solves all the mysteries, he can perfectly describe what this sort of world might look like by stopping all the murders. Maybe then, they'll at least be able to "see" what the "happy end" world looks like. Who knows, maybe meta-Battler even gets to live in that one like a one-time Rika swap.
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2010-03-16, 22:51 | Link #6633 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: PA
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I guess I just figured that in these kinds of series it's all about reaching the best possible ending. Though if it's gonna be different from the "everything's resolved and happy" Higurashi ending then I guess I have something to look forward too. Besides which how do we know we won't get a Minagoroshi-Hen type arc where Battler figures it out and then uses the next arc to save everyone? |
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2010-03-16, 22:55 | Link #6634 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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If you see things that aren't there and believe they exist, you are crazy. If you have a strong imagination and occasionally lose yourself in that, you're immature or a dreamer. If you have a strong imagination and a grasp of metaphor, you have a literary imagination. I can just as easily support the lattermost of these with thematic elements from the released episodes as any other opinion. Not that I really like the "fiction theory."
So yeah, I'll call her crazy if she really believes that stuff exists. Even Maria and Ange are grounded in reality. They're just engaged in escapism. |
2010-03-16, 22:56 | Link #6635 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway I differ even with that interpretation. To me it is not necessary for a "witch" to be delusional, and I think Ange proved that. Oh wait... Battler proved that even more evidently Quote:
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Virgilia/Kumasawa being labeled as a witch is something you can find in the novel, not my speculation and the fact that no known sad past about her exist is also something you can check yourself in the novel. But about "sad past" being a requirement to be a witch, where is it hinted? Of course we know that many (not all) of those that are labeled as "witches" also have a sad past. But frankly I think this fact must be taken in context. In this story pretty much everyone has a sad background. For example Eva (1986) is no match for Rosa when it comes to "sad past". Kyrie's got a pretty nasty one as well. Even Gohda doesn't have a happy background. Since there is high concentration of sad stories in Umineko I don't find it strange that most witches have one. Plus correlation and causation are not the same thing. So even supposing that there is a correlation because sad people are more likely to seek magic to ease their pain, it doesn't mean that every witch is like that or that magic exists for that purpose alone.
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2010-03-16, 23:08 | Link #6636 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-03-16, 23:23 | Link #6638 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Heck there are hints in ep 6 that George remembers, but if he's a potential murderer that puts Battler in the opposite situation that Keiichi and Rika were in. And I don't expect Ryukishi to pull the same old thing he did in Higurashi where he has the little girl whose the reincarnation of a god get everybody to remember and save themselves. He's not doing Rokkenjima syndrome he's not doing that again either.
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