[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Valentine]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Regarding Genji and Ronove, there must be some more serious reason why their surname (or given name?) is the same, but I don't really tend to believe they are the same person.

There's a bit on the witches and furniture side in the tips from episode 2 for Genji that says Kinzo had the help of an advanced-level demon when making Genji as furniture. If that was Ronove, it's possible he took the name from there.

[Northernme]

Sure, that's the reason in the meta-world, or the witch's side of the argument or something, but what I think is that all the meta-world characters actually represent someone or something on the game board. I'm tempted to think Kumasawa is Virgilia, Genji Ronove and so forth, although I doubt it's really quite so easy.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by tcaz2

I don't see why Natsuhi's headaches HAVE to mean something more than they're just headaches. I mean, Jessica has asthma, after all.

It could just be her family on her mothers side has a history of medical problems or something.

I mean, it very well COULD mean something, but I don't see why it 'has to'.

Agreed. It's like the debate that Maria is mentally challenged - just because she believes in a friendly witch, especially with her kind of life, does not make her mentally challenged. It also says in the TIPs that Natsuhi has to take care of everything in the house and probably just gets stressed out easily. Not to mention she has Eva breathing down her throat just because Krauss and her (Eva) don't have a good relationship.

I mean if you think Natsuhi is paranoid or depressed because of headaches, you might as well say Krauss is a bad brother because he's defending himself against his greedy siblings or Jessica has lung cancer because of her asthma.

If Ryukushi made every little detail into a huge thing in this game then EVERYONE might as well be impersonating Beatrice in some way.

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for various characters:

It makes me wonder if Ryukishi will create as many fantasy characters as the real characters with clear connection.

It's been noted already that there is a clear correspondece between the brothers+spouses and the seven sins. It's no coincidence they are seven, and they also clearly show particular distinctive sign of their main sin.
Rudolf=Lust=Asmodeus
Natsuhi=Pride=Lucifer
Eva=Greed=Mammon
Rosa=Wrath=Satan
Kyrie=Envy=Leviathan
Krauss=Sloth=Belphegor
Hideyoshi=Gluttony=Beelzebub

Then we have Ronove and Ronoue.
Virgilia and Kumasawa

I wonder if we can create a connection with the siestas too.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for various characters:

It makes me wonder if Ryukishi will create as many fantasy characters as the real characters with clear connection.

It's been noted already that there is a clear correspondece between the brothers+spouses and the seven sins. It's no coincidence they are seven, and they also clearly show particular distinctive sign of their main sin.
Rudolf=Lust=Asmodeus
Natsuhi=Pride=Lucifer
Eva=Greed=Mammon
Rosa=Wrath=Satan
Kyrie=Envy=Leviathan
Krauss=Sloth=Belphegor
Hideyoshi=Gluttony=Beelzebub

Then we have Ronove and Ronoue.
Virgilia and Kumasawa

I wonder if we can create a connection with the siestas too.

Spoiler for Reply:

Well the Siestas do get a connection but it's in Episode 4, so no talking about it here.

As far as your parent/sin list goes, I'm pretty sure Krauss and Natsuhi are the other way around - Natsuhi being Belphegor and Krauss being Lucifer. But otherwise it is pretty noteworthy. I wonder if there can be any comparison as far as virtues go: Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness and Humility. The virtues are suppose to be the thing that can match the vices in power and strength morally.

[izmosmolnar]

Spoiler for seven sins comparison:

Yeah counting Shannon and Kanon there are 7 kids in the story too. I wonder if we could combine them with the Seven virtues too, if the case with the parents aren't a coincidence. It's definitely an interesting comparison though.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Reply:

Well the Siestas do get a connection but it's in Episode 4, so no talking about it here.

As far as your parent/sin list goes, I'm pretty sure Krauss and Natsuhi are the other way around - Natsuhi being Belphegor and Krauss being Lucifer. But otherwise it is pretty noteworthy. I wonder if there can be any comparison as far as virtues go: Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness and Humility. The virtues are suppose to be the thing that can match the vices in power and strength morally.

Spoiler for sins:

I wouldn't say so. Why Natsuhi a sloth? She's the total opposite. of the seven Natsuhi is the one that shows more pride about being a Ushiromiya. Incidentally she's one of the lowest in rank and that kinda reflects Lucifer being the weaker of the seven stakes while being the most boastful. Anyway noone is as fixated as Natsuhi about the family name. And when the brothers accuse Krauss of being an embezzler it's Natsuhi that thinks those are unacceptable remarks. She's the one that always talk about what's being worth of the ushiromiya's name and what's not. Yes she's pretty much pathetic considering she isn't even allowed to wear the family crest.

Krauss is not certain, but he certainly has lost a lot of money making investment that ended up failing. And it's all because he doesn't have the guts to trust his own abilities (this is something that Krauss himself said). In other words Krauss has talents but he doesn't believe in himself and therefore he ends up failing and losing money.

I wonder about the "kids", i dunno if we can put them together in the same group. For once George is an adult, and Kanon and Shannon are two servants. In other words i can't find a "lowest common multiple" to include everyone.
Cousins = 5
Underaged Characters = 6

[Kitsu]

Rudolf=Lust=Asmodeus
also Jessica=Lust=Asmodeus

Did you read about her in the Tips? She wants to fall in love...

Jessica: "I also want to fall in love"

*coughcough* xDD That just stood out a little so..yeah...Also Jessica was killed by Lust her "own sin" in the end..just something that came to my mind.

Underaged Characters = 6
But in the end George is just a kid. He isn't allowed to the parents discussion and such. That's why children: 7 !
I once that that "seven" appears quite often.
For example there seven servants we know of.
Genji, Gohda, Kanon, Shannon, Kumawasa, two servants which name I always forget and never appeared because they had their free day.

[izmosmolnar]

Ok than let me rephrase it .
The "next generation" or "younger generation" (and that includes George too) inside the boardgame (and that excludes the loliwitches) consists 7 people curiously enough. Even though two of them aren't family, they do have romantic relations with one familymember and they can be considered potential spouse/fiance candidate.

If the parralellism between the seven sins and the parents are intentional, then the same number 7 among the "next generation" might mean more than just a coincidence, and it might be feasible to assume, that the seven virtues could have a "representatives" among the younger lads/lasses too.

[Jan-Poo]

You know originally the virtues were four. They added three much later for some sort of reason. So rather than 7 and 7 i tend to think it's 7 and 4. 7 parents 4 sons, 7 stakes 4 siestas.

I'm not convinced by the new generation thing, it's forced, you can see seven everywhere if you look that far. Hell you even count servants that were merely named once to go up to seven! Even though we know there are more than just those seven.

[Kitsu]

But with the sins and the children...There's still a problem...Ange and Maria...maybe Maria does have a sin, but Ange. Ange is a six year old. She is a really young child and children are a symbol of purity.

But well...I just pointed it out. I don't think the number of servants is important or so, I just think it's a pretty funny coincidence

[Jan-Poo]

that's why i think they symbolize the four virtues and not the seven sins.

Wisdom
Courage
Moderation
Justice

I can see Maria as wisdom, she knows a lot of stuff
George as moderation, no need to explain
Jessica as justice, she always wants to make the killer pay
and Battler as courage

[Kitsu]

That would be really appropriate but I'm not sure about Jessica and Battler. I think you could actually switch them and they would still fit. Since Battler who always battle Beatrice also seeks for justice and Jessica always wants to face the killer face on. I think both ways are alright.
And also it would make sense, since the children always "draw a line" between themselves and the adults. They say they never want to become like them and stuff.

[izmosmolnar]

Well, you are right.
We could try to categorize the 4 children into the 4 cardinal virtues too, but I still regard the scenario with the 7 virtue more likelier. (Hell! The other 3 virtues, the Theological virtues even appears in the Bible. They theorize that all 7 might have appeared at the very same time, first by greek philosophers around 400-500 BC.)

Or maybe, if we ask Walter Sparrow (played by Jim Carrey) he can show us how this whole family is related to the number 23

edit:

Originally Posted by Kitsu

But with the sins and the children...There's still a problem...Ange and Maria...maybe Maria does have a sin, but Ange. Ange is a six year old. She is a really young child and children are a symbol of purity.

But well...I just pointed it out. I don't think the number of servants is important or so, I just think it's a pretty funny coincidence

Exactly, and because she is a "symbol of purity" it would be easy to "categorize" her as one of the 7 VIRTUE-s (not sins). Of course she is no sinner at 6 yet (well tbh I was pretty gluttonous when I was 6, but that's a different story ), and that's why she could easily pass for more than one of the 7 virtues.

[Jan-Poo]

Well it all depends on the number of the siestas at the end of the story, i'd say that if they don't grow more than 4 then the four virtue theory is valid, if they become 7 then it's the seven virtue theory. and if they grow even more then they are both false °°;

That would be really appropriate but I'm not sure about Jessica and Battler. I think you could actually switch them and they would still fit. Since Battler who always battle Beatrice also seeks for justice and Jessica always wants to face the killer face on. I think both ways are alright.
And also it would make sense, since the children always "draw a line" between themselves and the adults. They say they never want to become like them and stuff.

Oh... i was expecting someone to point out how Battler isn't always that brave "I'M GONNA FALL! I'M GONNA FALL!" ahem...

[Marion]

Overall these are my opinions as far as virtues:

Shannon: Diligence (She is very diligent in her work and always tries her best)
Battler: Chastity (Courage and Wisdom are tokens of chastity - and the opposite of chastity is lust, which we can say embodies his father Rudolph)
Jessica: Kindness (She's kind to basically everyone - she even says that she gives presents to all the servants on their birthdays and even makes good friends with Shannon and Kanon)
Kanon: Temperance (He tends to control his emotions most times, until he snaps that is)
Maria: Patience (She tends to be the martyr overall, with how she always forgives her mother)
George: Humility (He always puts others above himself)
Ange: Charity

Spoiler for EP 3 Hidden Tea Party:

She's willing to help her brother so much she jumps off a skyscrapper XD

[rogerpepitone]

Have you forgotten Battler's attempts to grope female characters?

[Kitsu]

I don't really think that's lust.
He's "joking" he just wanted to be hit by Shannon for example. It's fun

[Marion]

Yeah, Battler's a bastard hero. He's not really lustful, he just makes really creepy jokes that would normally scare off any woman. Like father like son maybe :P?

[Jan-Poo]

Yet i don't think he's anywhere close to the personification of chastity. You should not forget that according to christianity you can sin with actions, thoughts and omissions. Thoughts and actions are often considered the same thing, therefore Battler he's not that pure.

Anyway where did you get those virtues from? I guess there are several different version of what the 7 virtues should be. The one i know are:

Fortitude/Courage
Justice
Prudence
Temperance

Faith
Love
Hope