Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Bonzo]

To die was the best shortcut for Lelouch, continue to live with that remorse was the worstest punishment.
I continued to keep him alive for that motivation, to suffer in silence for eternity.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

To die was the best shortcut for Lelouch, continue to live with that remorse was the worstest punishment.
I continued to keep him alive for that motivation, to suffer in silence for eternity.

I still don't see why Lulu would have a problem being alive. He is the opposite of Suzaku, remember? For as long as he lives, Lulu would work to do what he needs to do. Zero Requiem just require the death of an Emperor, but not necessary that of Lulu Lamperouge. If he survives by accident, Lulu would live with it just fine. He is a practical kind of guy.

Living with one's past can be difficult. But Lulu is not the type to take the easy way out.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I still don't see why Lulu would have a problem being alive. He is the opposite of Suzaku, remember? For as long as he lives, Lulu would work to do what he needs to do. Zero Requiem just require the death of an Emperor, but not necessary that of Lulu Lamperouge. If he survives by accident, Lulu would live with it just fine. He is a practical kind of guy.

I think Lelouch would indeed have a break down at first. I can hear the hysterical laughter just thinking about it. xD
I mean... it would be so ironic, and living with his past for all eternity (if we take the immortality route) wouldn't exactly have been his ideal happy ending.
But I also think C.C. would have given him a quick slap on the head, and then he would have pulled himself together. They were accomplices, after all - they would have managed.

Living with one's past can be difficult. But Lulu is not the type to take the easy way out.

But isn't that exactly what he did?
Lelouch admitted himself that there might have been other ways, yet he chose Zero Requiem because of his pride and guilt... and because he's always had a flair for the dramatic. You can totally see that he and Clovis are related. xD

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But isn't that exactly what he did?
Lelouch admitted himself that there might have been other ways, yet he chose Zero Requiem because of his pride and guilt... and because he's always had a flair for the dramatic. You can totally see that he and Clovis are related. xD

Well, the thing with Zero Requiem is that Lulu always wants to be the one to make the sacrifices, both physically and morally, so that others won't have to. That was what Lulu was about in episode one, and that's what he end up in the very end.

Lulu never actually placed his own survival very highly. It never mattered to him whether he lived or died, what's important is that "things get done". In the case of Zero Requiem, his staged death was a minor side effect, rather than the intent goal. As such, should heaccidentally survive, Lulu would have no problem with it as long as the Zero Requiem worked as it should. The man's got his priority right.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well, the thing with Zero Requiem is that Lulu always wants to be the one to make the sacrifices, both physically and morally, so that others won't have to. That was what Lulu was about in episode one, and that's what he end up in the very end.

Lulu never actually placed his own survival very highly. It never mattered to him whether he lived or died, what's important is that "things get done". In the case of Zero Requiem, his staged death was a minor side effect, rather than the intent goal. As such, should heaccidentally survive, Lulu would have no problem with it as long as the Zero Requiem worked as it should. The man's got his priority right.

I agree with the general statement, but I don't think the Lelouch at the beginning of the anime was all that concerned about other people's sacrifices. He was bent on having his revenge and creating a gentle world for his sister, and the only ones he truly tried to protect were his loved ones.
Zero Requiem was for the sake of the world, yes, but Lelouch could have found another way. He just didn't want to, even though that meant making his best friend kill him and leaving a lot of people behind - especially Suzaku and C.C., because he had pushed everyone else away already; or at least, he thought he had.
Lelouch had to work around a lot of issues right from the very beginning, starting with his immense hatred for his father. After everything that had happened, it's not surprising that when he had the chance to end it all in a fitting manner that would accomplish his goal, he took it.
I agree that he wouldn't have just killed himself. But I also think Zero Requiem was his personal happy ending - not despite his own death, but because of it.

[Levy]

Nogi, you mean, the dear old "bitchslapped to sanity"? =P

yeah, Vallen, you do have your share of a point in saying that Lelouch is a pragmatical one, that's why I agree that he won't get bathshit crazy if he'd ever wake up alive. Still, he'd have had to live with his guilt and unable to tell the truth to his dearest one, so he'd have had his part of punishment also in that scenario.

Anyway, I was proud of him enough with Lelouch planning ZR, him dying for real or surviving it, it doesn't change anything, his starting intentions and the determination with wich he carried on with his plan is what showed me his change of heart, the maturity he finally achieved, and what made me think that the ending of Code was great.

Edit: yes, soulmate, that's why you are my soulmate... <3

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Levy

Nogi, you mean, the dear old "bitchslapped to sanity"? =P

Exactly! xD
Errr... well, not literally. But I think Lelouch would need someone to remind him that a plan gone awry, even in that particular case, doesn't mean the end of the world.
Not that he'd have cracked and become an immortal version of Mao, but we all know that he's quite good at moping if he wants to be. xD

yeah, Vallen, you do have your share of a point in saying that Lelouch is a pragmatical one, that's why I agree that he won't get bathshit crazy if he'd ever wake up alive. Still, he'd have had to live with his guilt and unable to tell the truth to his dearest one, so he'd have had his part of punishment also in that scenario.

I'd even say it would have been a lot "worse", because Zero Requiem, to me, wasn't a punishment at all. It was self-inflicted, and his death was almost happier than his life. Which is sad and not fair at all, but I don't think Lelouch really cared about that.
He could have learned to live happily or at least contendly, but only after a short stage of... depression? Lelouch can get very emotional - he just gets over it rather quickly in most cases.

Anyway, I was proud of him enough with Lelouch planning ZR, him dying for real or surviving it, it doesn't change anything, his starting intentions and the determination with wich he carried on with his plan is what showed me his change of heart, the maturity he finally achieved, and what made me think that the ending of Code was great.

Agreed. *-*

Edit: yes, soulmate, that's why you are my soulmate... <3

*glomps*

[Kid Ying]

I think Lelouch surviving would change the ZR, and for worse. I mean, he would be the biggest asshole in the series. The fact that he would imprisoning Suzaku in Zero's role for life(and believing he killed his best friend), when Lelouch was out there selling milk or stuff... It would be horrible for Lelouch as a character. At least Suzaku should know if Lelouch is alive or not.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

I think Lelouch surviving would change the ZR, and for worse. I mean, he would be the biggest asshole in the series. The fact that he would imprisoning Suzaku in Zero's role for life(and believing he killed his best friend), when Lelouch was out there selling milk or stuff... It would be horrible for Lelouch as a character. At least Suzaku should know if Lelouch is alive or not.

Well, it wouldn't be Lelouch's fault if he survived by accident, and since he's Lelouch, it would suit him just fine to let the ones he cares about live in peace, watching over them from the shadows and not wanting to disturb whatever happiness they have found.
I could see him making an exception for Suzaku, but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't. Suzaku has been through enough already, and learning that the best friend he killed - who also happens to be Euphie's murderer - is still alive might only make things harder for him.

[Levy]

But, you know, Kid Ying, what has been done cannot be undone, and if Lelouch didn't planned to survive ZR - and I can't see him planning it in any possible scenario, that's for sure - then he'd have made Suzaku Zero already in the moment he realized that things went not as he planned.
And Suzaku is not the kind of taking back his own word, although, I agree with you, if he was alive, at least Suzaku should know - Nunnaly and Karen, I don't know.

Crack-wise, I can see immortal!Lelouch chasing ZeroZaku here and there, plotting all the most crazy plans to not get discovered by anyone, in order to try to persuade him to give up on his self-immolation as the Hero of Justice, and Suzaku stubbornly refusing to listen to him... that would make a good third season. =P

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

The fact that he would imprisoning Suzaku in Zero's role for life...

That's not Lulu's problem. Suzaku agreed to do this job, even though he could have refused at any time. Suzaku was a partner in Zero Requiem, not a victim.

And Suzaku could STILL refuse this job if he wants to. He just have to fake Zero's death, or even train a replacement. Suzaku is a masochist anyway, so he is probably enjoying his new identity.

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, it wouldn't be Lelouch's fault if he survived by accident, and since he's Lelouch, it would suit him just fine to let the ones he cares about live in peace, watching over them from the shadows and not wanting to disturb whatever happiness they have found.
I could see him making an exception for Suzaku, but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't. Suzaku has been through enough already, and learning that the best friend he killed - who also happens to be Euphie's murderer - is still alive might only make things harder for him.

My post was about him surviving by doing a plan or something like that, if he survived by accident, no one can blame him after all. But i still think he should tell Suzaku about this, not only for Suzaku, but also for him, so Lelouch can know what's happening with Nunnally and the rest of the people.

For the cases of Nunnally and Kallen i don't think Lelouch should tell about him. Both of them are living a happy life, but would thrown all of it in the dump to stay by Lelouch's side.

[Bonzo]

Well, if you want to laugh, I made this "horror" after R2 ep.19 and I had hit enough the real ending:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...sta_ht/cg1.JPG
http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...sta_ht/cg2.JPG
http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...ht/cgeass3.JPG

Making a translated summary, britannia empire gone, there's a sort of new republic, japan free, Kallen survived to the war and live with her mother, ougi and villetta annunce their wedding and at last...Kallen had a baby, the father is dead, dead hated by all the world, but she know the truth, the world is saved thanks to him, and she will remember him like the kind man he was.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's not Lulu's problem. Suzaku agreed to do this job, even though he could have refused at any time. Suzaku was a partner in Zero Requiem, not a victim.

And Suzaku could STILL refuse this job if he wants to. He just have to fake Zero's death, or even train a replacement. Suzaku is a masochist anyway, so he is probably enjoying his new identity.

Haha, it is actually not unfair to word it like this. 8D

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Well, if you want to laugh, I made this "horror" after R2 ep.19 and I had hit enough the real ending:

http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...sta_ht/cg1.JPG
http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...sta_ht/cg2.JPG
http://sabrinaonline.altervista.org/...ht/cgeass3.JPG

Making a translated summary, britannia empire gone, there's a sort of new republic, japan free, Kallen survived to the war and live with her mother, ougi and villetta annunce their wedding and at last...Kallen had a baby, the father is dead, dead hated by all the world, but she know the truth, the world is saved thanks to him, and she will remember him like the kind man he was.

dude
not cool
at all

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Levy

Nogi, you mean, the dear old "bitchslapped to sanity"? =P

yeah, Vallen, you do have your share of a point in saying that Lelouch is a pragmatical one, that's why I agree that he won't get bathshit crazy if he'd ever wake up alive. Still, he'd have had to live with his guilt and unable to tell the truth to his dearest one, so he'd have had his part of punishment also in that scenario.

Anyway, I was proud of him enough with Lelouch planning ZR, him dying for real or surviving it, it doesn't change anything, his starting intentions and the determination with wich he carried on with his plan is what showed me his change of heart, the maturity he finally achieved, and what made me think that the ending of Code was great.

Edit: yes, soulmate, that's why you are my soulmate... <3

I just had to say, I'd agree that Lelouch was pragmatic up to the point of the Zero Requiem. To be pragmatic means that their actions are dictated by practicality, as in they choose the most practical course of action for everything. Lelouch does deviate from that when Nunally or something he cares about is in danger but up until ZR he does have a pragmatic view. However, ZR is anything but that; Lelouch instead took a more idealistic stance in the end. If anything Schneizel was the pragmatic one. Nuke the world into submission, break the world's will to fight and you have peace. Given the history of the world and mankind's tendencies to wage war Schneizel's view is not completely wrong.

What made the ending emotional was the fact that we know he died. We the viewers know the kind of person that Lelouch was, someone who perhaps did not deserve death as well as the people he leaves behind. Nunally realising Lelouch's plan and telling him that she did not need anything other then him to be happy, Suzaku being the one to drive the sword into him and the last exchange shared, Kallen looking towards his body affirming that he is Zero, and the flashback that ends with his childhood images of Nunally, Suzaku and himself as he breathed his last. It ruins the scene if he lived precisely because it would invalidate those images used in his death scene which made it great.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, it wouldn't be Lelouch's fault if he survived by accident, and since he's Lelouch, it would suit him just fine to let the ones he cares about live in peace, watching over them from the shadows and not wanting to disturb whatever happiness they have found.
I could see him making an exception for Suzaku, but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't. Suzaku has been through enough already, and learning that the best friend he killed - who also happens to be Euphie's murderer - is still alive might only make things harder for him.

He had already come to terms with that, and quite possibly learned the exact circumstances. Bottom line: Suzaku didn't want to kill Lelouch deep down inside.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by azul120

He had already come to terms with that, and quite possibly learned the exact circumstances. Bottom line: Suzaku didn't want to kill Lelouch deep down inside.

And yet he was the one that did that. Peculiar huh? 8D
//i get your point, but it was like a situation, that was, take a step front, drowning-poll, take a step back, cliff-fall-bai-bai. They could have just not moved though, but alas.

[demon_god04]

The whole idea of ZR was for Suzaku and Lelouch to punish themselves, and alsmot make the world a better place. But the main point was punishment. I have no illusions that Lelouch would not have been able to make the world a better place without dying but he just chose that route. Suzaku helped because he believed they both needed to be punished. They get to torture themselves and play martyr, Suzaku must have been in heaven. Point is though, Suzaku still believed that Lelouch deserved punishment for Euphie whether he believed Lelouch should die or not.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

He had already come to terms with that, and quite possibly learned the exact circumstances. Bottom line: Suzaku didn't want to kill Lelouch deep down inside.

Ah, but that doesn't mean that Suzaku wouldn't still have a little trouble letting Euphie's murderer run around. He relied on this fact when he participated in Zero Requiem - it was probably the one thing that made him able to go through with it; well, besides Lelouch's determination and personal feelings about the matter, that is.
Having Lelouch come back saying: "You know, that hurt a bit, but I'm kind of immortal now, so... how have you been?" would be something he'd have to come to terms with first. I'm aware theye didn't blame each other for anything anymore, but seeing how Suzaku is still very big on masochi-... errr... duty, he might need a bit time to adjust. And even then, it would all be a bit weird.
So I'm not sure if Lelouch would want to come crashing back into his life if he wasn't needed. That, and he tends to underestimate his own value to those close to him... even though I think it might be different with Suzaku, since they understood each other so well.