Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion (second reincarnation)

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I ran my character 'Tigerclaw' through that. Surprised I scored only 26 for him. Of course, I've been developing him for years.

[dkellis]

In my view, stuff like the Mary Sue Litmus Tests are only for fun, not actual guidelines (much less rules) for writing. Since they concentrate so much on superficialities, it's entirely possible for a character to score highly on the test, but remain interesting nevertheless. It's only when a character is nothing but superficialities that the test can be remotely useful.

Besides, tests tend to err on the side of conservatism. As mentioned, I'm apparently Uber-Sue, even though I'm obviously not a Real Life Sue. The questions are geared oddly, sometimes: yes, my character is Asian, but so's over sixty percent of the world population.

[Tempy]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

How about some words telling us who the hell those guys are? I see nothing in your description to distinguish them from being mary sues in a military setting, not that it really matters all that much; it's not like we judge characters by this thing.

Lt. Col. Richard Winters was a paratrooper in the United States Army. From D-Day to the end of the war, he lead the 101st Airborne 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Unit. However he began his leadership role in Easy Company. He is known to be a humble, quiet, thoughtful, and intelligent leader, loved by all his soldiers.

One of his operations in WWII involved him attacking an artillery battery with 13 paratroopers against an entire platoon of German infantry. He was highly successful, and the assault is still taught to this day as a textbook assault on a fixed position. During this assault, he also managed to procure vital German defense intelligence. During Operation Market Garden, Winters successfully lead 20 Easy company soldiers again 200 German soldiers.

The nonfiction book Band of Brothers and the HBO series of the same name help introduce the men of Easy Company and Dick Winters into public light.

Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock II was a USMC sniper, operating during the Vietnam War with extreme efficiency. His official record is 93 confirmed kills, but he has up to 400 probable kills. He is a legend among Marines, being one of the key figures in starting the USMC sniper program and even getting the M25 rifle named after him.

His greatest accomplishments are his own: shooting an enemy sniper through his scope, hitting him in the eye and killing him, and stalking an enemy general for four days and three nights in the bush, taking him down in one shot, then crawling away back to pick up. He also altered a .50 M2 heavy machine gun with a custom made scope, sniping targets up to 2500 yards away, firing single shots. There have been many nods to his accomplishments in movies and tv.

Both men were legendary soldiers in the United States military

[Sheba]

Actually these tests should just be taken as alarm bells, telling people to rework their characters a little bit. Imo, the greatest danger an aspiring writer will face is to shower himself in self-praise and overconfidence about how his own characters and ideas are unquestionnably awesome. Everyone is subject to critics, everyone. Your ideals of awesome and well-fleshed characters may be not the reader's ideal of awesome and well-fleshed characters. In my days of IAQing, I have seen way too much forum users litterally self-praising, pimping and powerwanking their own characters. And I have the feeling that some users here are treading the path.

However if your character has Mary Sue-like traits, maybe do the fucking effort to justify it.

Example:

1. Your character swing a big fucking sword and is a walking genocide. How and why?

a. As a highschooler or prince, he is so incredibly gifted, and has the bodybuild of Leonardo di Caprio in The Beach, winning tournaments at the age of 11.

Unacceptable and expect LOTS of eyerolls.

b. He grew up in a mercenary company that waged war for a living, was forced to adapt and survive in a near darwinian environment. Maybe when he was 14, he was called the Slaughterer of Hundred. By the time when his soul was sold to demons by his best friend who betrayed him for his ambition, he was a magnet for devils and demons. He gained his Big Fucking Sword when he was about to go on his journey to kill monsters and his former best friend. And knowing what kind of abomination he fight every days, it IS understandable.
(guess who it is)

More acceptable, through his backstory and context.


EDIT:

Sousuke Sagara's incredible military skills at age 17 may have qualify him as one BUT his past and context in his verse justify this, not to mention it left him as totally not adapted to western social life. Moreover, history has examples of young soldiers (especially in times when living until 30 is a miracle), and don't get me started on kid soldiers in africa or those in south-east asia in the 1970s (vietnam and cambodia). But none of them were formidable soldiers at less than 10.

EDIT 2:

Dean Winchester in Supernatural may also have been qualified as one. However, it is again justified by his upbringing, not to mention the fact that scripwriters has taken a near sadistic pleasure into breaking him, in lots of way.

[Kha]

No amount of justification seemed to have done any good for me. An orphan with long history of conflict, knowing nothing but war machines and combat, strumming his father's old guitar to while away time while flying from dimension to dimension in an overused fighter, socially inept and linguistically brutal, and yet is fated to be the bringer of a new dawn, 10 years after the incident that turned him into a lost boy in the first place. This on top of the many effects that make the one a Sue; I could even throw in a clone for the fun of it just to make the score worse. He fukking died and came back in the old script; a shoutout to Gundam more cost me twice, first in Sunrising, second in wanting to even shoutout which I'm surprised is a Sue trait.

It's thick and rich, and incorrigibly fun to create and field, but apparently it has all come at the cost of reputation.

I'm too guilty to work this further. In fact, the more I talk about him, the deeper this sin becomes.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kha

No amount of justification seemed to have done any good for me.

Make him less of a ubermensch and Don Juan then. Do not make the female cast cling onto him harem anime like. Justify one's crush by building it up brick by brick until the crowning moment of awesome (I could see Yuuno winning Nanoha's heart by helping her escape from invading army or swarm of bent-on-destruction drones while holding his ground against a full batallion with his barriers and binds, as one of the many ways to crown him).

And please stop flaunting the VN-like harem endings like you used to do.

[Kha]

The reason he was a Harem Hero was because the series lacked one in the first place. Like I said, incorrigibly fun, but ultimately sinful. As for building up brick by brick, I believe having completely different timelines to do that purpose. And Kha's story should've ended 4 years before StrikerS; StrikerS forced me to dig him up again.

Anyway Sophia's codex should help patch the hole left by der Kleriker. Just disappear mysteriously. That should be good. After all, till now we still have no idea where Malfurion is in WoW...

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kha

The reason he was a Harem Hero was because the series lacked one in the first place. Like I said, incorrigibly fun, but ultimately sinful. As for building up brick by brick, I believe having completely different timelines to do that purpose. And Kha's story should've ended 4 years before StrikerS; StrikerS forced me to dig him up again.

Anyway Sophia's codex should help patch the hole left by der Kleriker. Just disappear mysteriously. That should be good. After all, till now we still have no idea where Malfurion is in WoW...

Outside the harem element, you have shown to be less subject to author hubris than others.

One of your biggest problems is that you throw ideas, often sprung from the Cool Thing of the Month, here and there without doing much to make it work, that's what one of the things that people like tk reproached you. That's one of the reason people got lost, because they are not sure if this Kha is the definitive version or will he be modified again.

[dkellis]

Personally, my tests for seeing whether a character is a Sue is a lot simpler:

• Does the plot revolve entirely around the character, to the expense and detriment of every other character?
• If so, is the plot interesting?

The reason why Original Characters are stereotypically seen to be Sues by default is that people tend not to want to read about our creations, they want to read about the canon characters as they are (or as they can plausibly be extrapolated). Hijacking the whole "rubber sheet" theory of gravitation, the more the original character's plot mass, the more they distort the story around them. If the mass is enough to form a black hole (or close enough), that's a Sue.

And it doesn't matter if the character is interesting nonetheless. If a character's background allows him to be who he is, in a way that makes readers nod and say "that makes sense", then it's all fine. But if the background reads like a litany of angst and complaints, then readers are likely to be less forgiving.

Part of the challenge here is in trying to make the backgrounds of our OCs in summary sound interesting enough that it doesn't overwhelm everyone else. The history of Spider-man may have earned him his rightful legion of fans over the years, but trying to summarize everything to a new reader is likely to result in complete confusion, followed by complete disinterest.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by dkellis

Personally, my tests for seeing whether a character is a Sue is a lot simpler:

• Does the plot revolve entirely around the character, to the expense and detriment of every other character?
• If so, is the plot interesting?

The reason why Original Characters are stereotypically seen to be Sues by default is that people tend not to want to read about our creations, they want to read about the canon characters as they are (or as they can plausibly be extrapolated). Hijacking the whole "rubber sheet" theory of gravitation, the more the original character's plot mass, the more they distort the story around them. If the mass is enough to form a black hole (or close enough), that's a Sue.

And it doesn't matter if the character is interesting nonetheless. If a character's background allows him to be who he is, in a way that makes readers nod and say "that makes sense", then it's all fine. But if the background reads like a litany of angst and complaints, then readers are likely to be less forgiving.

Part of the challenge here is in trying to make the backgrounds of our OCs in summary sound interesting enough that it doesn't overwhelm everyone else. The history of Spider-man may have earned him his rightful legion of fans over the years, but trying to summarize everything to a new reader is likely to result in complete confusion, followed by complete disinterest.

This is where I agree on all points.

I'll just say that lots of most well-established characters in old and modern fictions has points that may have made them Sues. This is where "how to do it" come in play.

EDIT: So yeah, people can rant all the day along how their character is badass awesome, I'll answer them, "Just write first then we will talk" or in the case of a pen & paper RPG "Just roll and play first, then as a GM I'll see if you can do it".

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by ghazghkull

I think this might be quite the prudent litmus test for Mary-Sue tests :3

Linkage

Heh, to be honest, I despise those tests. Basically that test says "Any character that has acomplished anything even remotely of importance is a Mary Sue." The only way to pass that test is to make your character an unimportant character with no tallents or special things. Now where is the fun in that? In that case just name him 'generic NPC #1293' and be done with it. -_-

The questions re incomplete too, I can think of various Mary Sue related subjects that are not on the test, but are certainly the very things Mary Sues are made off.

I also ignore any question that compares me to the character, because quite frankly, whether a character is based on me has no relation whatsoever to how the character is read by other people. Seriously, even profesional writers base their characters and stories on the things and people they know or have experienced. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings based on his own experiences. Are we saying that the best selling book worldwide, second only to the bible (Jesus scored a whoopin 85 by the way) is a Sue filled book? in my opinion the best rules to hold whether a character is a Mary Sue or not is to simply compare them to the heroes and ask 'is my character superior to them in every way?' if yes, then you most likely need to rewrite a thing or two. Not just because your character has a few tallents of his own.

As the test itself says:

"Again, keep in mind that the test isn't always correct. Morpheus from the Sandman Comics scored nearly 70 points, and yet we don't believe he's a Mary-Sue. He's well developed, suffers the consequences of several major personality flaws, and has very few powers or talents besides those necessary to perform the duties of his station. Of course, research, an interesting story, and good writing always help too. "

So don't take that test seriously, its far too limited.

For the curious:

Keroko: 48, not surprising, angsty past, last surviving member of a calamity, reformed a criminal (Tesla), one of the Aces. Nope, no surprise there. Though I had to mark 'nursed back by a kind and loving person' because my mind fails to compute Shamal as anything else.

Tesla: 19, well if the quiz branched more on the intelectual part or the 'immortal, god fae etc.' part (there were no questions that related to the Wolkenritter, even though its easy to think of a few) I have little doubt she would have come out as a Sue. As it stand though, not having had a familly to lose seems to be an advantage she holds over Keroko.

Uomo: 15, again no real questions that branch into him. Had they branched into evil characters, his rating would have skyrocketed. Not having any parents to lose also helped (they really should add 'product of experiments' to that list)

Syn: 15, no surprise here either, except this time in a positive way. Syn is by far the most normal character I have written. No emo past, no complicated things about her body, and she hasn't risen to fame yet to bother with all the 'well known' things. I did skip the high-school part though.

Again, I ignored any question comparing me to my characters.

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Exactly!
Though a strip poker crack is... Hard. See with yakyuken crack I can use dice to determine who wins (Assigning 2 numbers to each symbol per character and rolling dice to see who wins and stuff)

But how can I find a way to do that with poker...?

Dice, just grab a d4, assign one to each number, and roll away.

Dice fix everything. :3

Originally Posted by Comartemis

On a completely unrelated topic, has anyone tried to do a Neo-Mid system?

Neo-Belka takes the groundings of AB and applies Mid techniques to them; an idea I had for Alex (since Cinque went and hijacked the Steel Mage concept) was to reverse the process, and make a Mid system with Belkan concepts applied to it.

Since Alex has grown up in the Saint Church, he idolizes the Church Knights and decides to make up his own style while still playing to his strengths (energy manipulation instead of pseudomatter manipulation). The result is a Mid-type user who specializes in melee and short-range combat using lots of energy blades and an array of other spells like binding spells that can be used like whips, energy daggers and blades used as projectiles, etc. Anyone have any similar systems I could use for additional ideas and inspiration?

Not as far as I know, mostly because Neo Belkan is Mid's take on a virtually extinct system. Mid is nowhere near extinct, thus there has been no reason to develop a Neo Mid system.

If anything, Fate is probably the closest we have so far in a Neo Mid user. Though I myself atribute that more to Mid's versatality. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Kha

I guess it was how Kha was made. Back in AlternateS, he was designed as the 4th Ace, and so had traits, skills and powers modelled after the others, but geared towards what they lacked (tank, less DPS, healing, buffing-- Hence the Paladin choice). And after learning a few lessons in OC, and adapting for Keroko, Kha became even more entrenched.

It was a really scary adventure, because for the first time, a Ces'rauva was not only a primary character, he was directly affected by major events in the timeline, and rose as a powerful figure in an organization. When all along, Ces'rauva just nudged things along on the side, while the story focused wholly on the main character from the series.

I meant that you picked Fate to like. Fate is the number 1 favourite character in Nanoha. Aaron and I went for the slighlty less liked characters.

Originally Posted by TheShinySword

(Just kidding Ghaz we pay attention to you not that often but we definitely do)

Btw I'm leaving you guys all with this

Spoiler for RebelS profile: Falling Soul:

Device Data… Loaded.

Falling Soul the Obnoxious Glaive
Master: Vivio H. Takamachi
AI: Male
Paint Color: Dark Orange
Civilian Form: Small orange cube that fits onto a bracelet on Vivio’s arm
Quote: “[As long as you’re an idiot Vi, I’ll be here to save you]”

Falling Soul was created by Shario Finieno and was the prototype for a line of highly advanced AI systems, a fact that he is very very proud of (and reminds Vivio of constantly). He was created in the year MC 83 and given to his current owner Vivio H. Takamachi as a 13th birthday present. He did not go through basic training with Vivio, as that happened the year before his creation, he’s always eager to point out it would have been much more enjoyable with him around.

Personality: He tries his best to keep Vivio down to Earth, he’s well aware of the raw talent his master has but also knows that all the talent in the world won’t help her if she doesn’t keep focused. Most people or devices would decide the best plan of action would be to encourage her and gently nudge her in the right direction. Yeah too bad Falling Soul isn’t like that. Falling Soul decided to take the direct approach and just be as snarky as possible and remind Vivio that she’s still a kid and he’s smarter. It doesn’t help that Shari spoils him whenever she’s working on his repairs. The only person he seems to respect is Syn and only because she knows exactly what to do to rile him up.

He’s also very prideful, as a device with an advanced AI he sometimes believes that makes him better then older models (who he calls old timers) occasionally one of these models will tell him off and he’ll become a quiet moody device. If anyone insults him he’ll get haughty and defensive or just order Vivio to blow them up.

Appearance:

Glaive form: His normal form. The pole is about as long Vivio’s body and orange. The crescent blade on the top is about as long as Vivio’s forearm and is a lovely shade of black. His cartage loader is on the pole but due to advances in technology it’s not nearly as hulking as the ones on older devices. In this form Vivio is much more focused on mid-ranged magic. While the crescent shape blade makes stabbing impossible it provides an area for Vivio to contain and charge her magic.

Sword and Shield form: The blade of glaive form turns into a black buckler shield (the small round ones) while the pole turns into an orange arming sword (about 3 feet long). This form allows Vivio to show off the melee skills she’s acquired (as well as some of the sword lessons she’s had). Vivio’s prone to throwing the shield part when she gets annoyed. Sometimes though it seems like she’s bringing a knife to a gunfight.


Special Features:

He’s more customized for Vivio then she knows. He’s also able to act as a limiter for her, after all a child shouldn’t be running around with the Saint Kaiser’s power buzzing about them (She had a series of other limiters placed on her before). As a result when she uses Falling Soul her magic comes out orange instead of glowy rainbow. Vivio herself isn’t aware of this feature.

Short profile but he's a device so how long can I make it
Those who hang out in the FFT will recognize him :3. Falling Soul is Vivio's (RebelS version) device. RebelS is the OC fic I have stirring in the FFT (I might start duel posting it over here but the idea still scares me )

Oh I do Like Falling Soul. He and Syn make such a nice combo when they agree on a point.

Originally Posted by Kha

No amount of justification seemed to have done any good for me. An orphan with long history of conflict, knowing nothing but war machines and combat, strumming his father's old guitar to while away time while flying from dimension to dimension in an overused fighter, socially inept and linguistically brutal, and yet is fated to be the bringer of a new dawn, 10 years after the incident that turned him into a lost boy in the first place. This on top of the many effects that make the one a Sue; I could even throw in a clone for the fun of it just to make the score worse. He fukking died and came back in the old script; a shoutout to Gundam more cost me twice, first in Sunrising, second in wanting to even shoutout which I'm surprised is a Sue trait.

It's thick and rich, and incorrigibly fun to create and field, but apparently it has all come at the cost of reputation.

I'm too guilty to work this further. In fact, the more I talk about him, the deeper this sin becomes.

I can see you're unhappy with your character, so I won't try to sweet talk you out of whatever you've planned. I've been unhappy with my characters myself before too, sometimes they got scrapped (Mandy for example, she was just simply too much of a rip/paste).

Other times I like the base of the characters, but not what I build around them. Uomo and Syn come to mind, Uomo had a good base, a trap Sentoukijin specialized into espionage, but the details around him were just too crackish to work (admitidly his initial profile was created more for fun then anything else) I rebuilt him by scrapping virtually everything, even his appearance, and building him back up from the base. I used the thread's theories that Jail must have had more sponsors then just the TSAB and incorporated NOD into his profile as an underground organisation that moves against the TSAB. He is not alike his first version at all, but not unlike him either, and I'm more happy with this build.

If you want to scrap Kha completely, that choice is yours to make. However, Kha has the potential to work, like Sheba said, you just have to get rid of the unnecisary aditions to his profile that makes him too much a central pillar to the Nanohaverse. An OC should not surpass a CC in importance to the story.

[Kha]

Thinking back, it was a toss up between Fate and Hayate. I guess it was good thing I picked Fate ultimately; or I'd have given Hayate up to Aaron.

[Keroko]

So what's the plan now Kha? Are you going to abandon Kha completely or rebuilt him? If you choose to rebuilt him, I'll be more then happy to help.

[Kha]

There's nothing to change. It's either I continue or stop.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kha

There's nothing to change. It's either I continue or stop.

What's bad if you change?

[dkellis]

So I tried running Ivey through the Mary Sue test.

She scored 80. And she's not even the main character of the story.

Spoiler for The long and involved breakdown:

Is the character's name an unusual spelling of a more common word or name?
"Ivey de Lorien" should speak for itself.

Is the character highly attractive only through her/his concerted effort?
Ivey's generically cute, in the way that every anime female character is able to suddenly turn drop-dead gorgeous if they put in effort.

Are one or more other characters attracted to her/him?
Rancer (her former boyfriend) and Luna (who is, indeed, a Token Bi).

Does the character have an unusual eye color, or otherwise exceptional eyes? And will they have something to do with the plot?
Grey eyes, and a spoilery yes. (It's already listed in her submitted profile, under heavy spoiler protection.

Does the character have unusual or exceptional hair, or does her/his hair get a disproportionate amount of description compared to that of the other characters?
Silvery-grey hair (since just saying "grey hair" has a different connotation), again (slightly) plot-important. A side effect of the plot, rather than central to it.

Does the character dress in a manner you find particularly attractive, sexy, or cool?
Her barrier jacket? Hell yeah it's cool. I was under the impression that it's kind of the point of all barrier jackets.

Is the character of above average intelligence? Is she/he a genius?
Already mentioned in the profile, and approved. Personally I was surprised that it didn't get a single raised eyebrow.

Is the character heir to a large fortune?
Again, in the profile.

Does the character feel guilty about something terrible that happened in the past? Even despite overwhelming evidence that it wasn't her/his fault?
In the spoilered section of the profile. It's very definitely not Ivey's fault, and Rancer is being a [censored], but the guilt complex is one of the important themes of the story.

Is the character unusually accomplished for her/his age/species/etc.?
Like every significant Nanoha-verse character.

Is the character fluent in more than two languages?
Midchildan, Earth English, Earth Japanese, and Belkan. Admittedly, this is assuming that all these languages are different, which has no evidence in the series.

Has the character traveled extensively?
To everywhere the TSAB sends her, yes.

Is the character consistently irreverent or radical, without repercussions?
I'm interpreting this as "without serious repercussions". Ivey is consistently irreverent; she's just careful not to do it in the presence of someone who can make her life difficult.

Does the character ever easily learn a difficult skill (e.g. learn to play guitar in a matter of weeks)?
In profile.

Has the character ever fairly lost in any kind of duel, fight, or competition against someone of equal or lesser ability, where the winner was not the character's rival?
A few times. The only reason it's not more is because I suck at visualizing fight scenes.

Does the character have a physical handicap that does not hinder her/him significantly?
In profile, spoilered.

Does the character remain in a committed relationship for the full duration of your story?
I'm assuming that her absolute devotion to Rancer, despite them not actually being a couple, counts. She's completely committed to him, at least for most of the story.

Is the character astonishingly good at something that is not her/his profession?
Ivey can drink anyone under the table. Since she's not a professional beer-drinker, this counts.

Does the character have any particular skill at which she/he the best or among the best?
Fighting with a spiked chain.

Does the character hold your dream job?
So does every other Enforcer in the TSAB.

Is the character, or was she/he ever... A cop? A hero?
See also: TSAB Enforcer.

Does the character possesses the following skills, with or without the aid of charms, spells, etc.)
Telepathy, telekinesis (to guide her projectiles), invulnerability (shields), flight, general magic, transdimensional travel and communication, the ability to shrug off minor wounds (like every other Nanoha-verse character, and possibly in action anime), super strength/speed (like every other Nanoha-verse character), skill in martial arts/hand-to-hand combat (melee fighter), sharp-shooting (for a given definition of "sharp-shooting"; she's accurate, but not superhumanly so), sleight of hand (which is not difficult to do). All considered "normal" for the Nanoha-verse.

Does the character have the same religious or spiritual beliefs as you?
By default, yes.

Do the character's problems continue after the end of your story without hope of respite (i.e. she/he neither dies nor gets a happy ending)?
Some of her problems (including a very major one) continue, since, well, she's not the main character.

Is the character someone you would like to fall in love with or have sex with?
I admit that I think Ivey is awesome.

Does the character effect a major change in her/his love interest to make said love interest a more appropriate partner?
In the backstory, under spoiler tags.

Has the character ever been nursed back to health from serious injuries by a warm, kind, and loving person? Was this person the character's love interest?
Spoilered backstory.

Does the character sacrifice her/himself for love, or so that two other characters can be together?
Despite being committed to Rancer, she's willing to let Reiz and Laura be the ones fighting for him. I suspect I'm thinking of the wrong use of "sacrifice".

Have you ever written a fight scene in which you described with needless extravagence everything your character did? Was this scene inspired by a movie, show, or game?
By necessity, despite not wanting to at all.

Did you base the character on your favorite previously existing character or person?
Based on Konata Izumi from Lucky Star. She's not a direct copy, and my favourite L*S character is Miyuki, and my favourite character period is Tomoyo from CCS, but otherwise it counts.

Is the character someone you would want to be friends with, assuming she/he would be receptive to friendship with you?
As mentioned before, I wouldn't mind if Ivey were my girlfriend.

Do you ever wish you could be like the character?
Without the injuries, perhaps.

I just find this amusing because I've submitted Ivey twice for approval, and both times received "well-balanced character" in response.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kha

There's nothing to change. It's either I continue or stop.

Bullshit, there are a million of ways to change Kha and make him an acceptable character. I believe that I can quite confidently say that I have experience in rewriting characters, and to say there is 'nothing to change' is the biggest nonsense I have seen in a while.

Honestly Kha, pull yourself together. Yes, the current Kha is a Mary Sue by a rather large standart, but so what? You were already planning to rebuilt him anyway, might as well change course and make him a character that can shine. Start by peeling apart everything you know about him, and look at it. What would fit? What wouldn't? Leave the things that fit, and discard those that don't. Rebuilt Kha's history from that point.

I can still see Kha, not a being destined to be the bringer of a new dawn, but as a Knight of the Saint Church, a man who met the Aces of the bureau and fell in love with a certain blone haired Enforcer, a hero of his own right who stood by her through her greatest trials.

I aknowledge that the Cleric Knight has problems, but what you're doing right now is running away. Goose and Kagerou didn't give up when we started hammering Erusia, ATC didn't give up when we were complaining about his characters and their ideas, I didn't give up when my characters weren't what I wanted them to be. You know what we did? We didn't run away, we looked at the concepts, we changed them, we altered them, we rebuilt them, often scrapping major ellements, and what came out where characters and scenarios that everyone was satisfed with and enjoyed.

Don't run away Kha. I know you can do better then that.

[kazenoyuuchi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

See? See? I'm not the only one who easilly connects the Saint Church to 40k Mwahahaha!

40K? Never heard of it.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Anyway, a bit of a bland profile for now, but how old is Vivio when he kidnaps her?

For now, I am thinking that the kidnapping happens when Vivio is 10, though nothing is really confirmed yet...

Originally Posted by Kha

Nice work here! And let me express sheer amazement at how you hit the definition of daemons almost directly on the head!

Daemons... Why do I get the feeling it has something to do with 40k...

Originally Posted by Kha

Don't worry, updates can come later. Though if you don't mind, I'd like to call his magic Chaos Midchilda, since Chaos magic is daemonic magic in my terms.

Feel free to call it whatever you wish

Originally Posted by Kha

@Keroko: This Daemon is one nice guy, perfect for Nanohaverse, but very off for 40K. Not that its anything bad! I've always wanted a befriendable daemon!

Remember, the Nanoha equivalent of befriending is a Starlight Breaker

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

The prospect is quite interesting. Though I am most curious at to what Johan would do once he gets his hands on Vivio... Not to mention the reaction of her family...

You had to remind me of the family... Now I've got a mental image of a sort of pathetic looking Johan running from a barrage of pink beams...

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

...

*still hasn't played any Touhou*

My friend, you are not alone in that aspect.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Hence why I am asking for age. Keroko aside, Syn is not going to be happy. <_<

Great... Now red bolts and arrows have joined the barrage... What next??? Kha joining the assault from the front???

Poor Johan... looking pathetic in his creator's mind even before he is finished...

Originally Posted by ghazghkull

I think this might be quite the prudent litmus test for Mary-Sue tests :3

Linkage

Pulled whatever I had in mind for Johan through this... Got only a 6...
However, I shall go on with him even if he is an anti-sue (whatever that is...)!

A 6 still feels pretty pathetic though...

Originally Posted by Keroko

Bullshit, there are a million of ways to change Kha and make him an acceptable character. I believe that I can quite confidently say that I have experience in rewriting characters, and to say there is 'nothing to change' is the biggest nonsense I have seen in a while.

Honestly Kha, pull yourself together. Yes, the current Kha is a Mary Sue by a rather large standart, but so what? You were already planning to rebuilt him anyway, might as well change course and make him a character that can shine. Start by peeling apart everything you know about him, and look at it. What would fit? What wouldn't? Leave the things that fit, and discard those that don't. Rebuilt Kha's history from that point.

I can still see Kha, not a being destined to be the bringer of a new dawn, but as a Knight of the Saint Church, a man who met the Aces of the bureau and fell in love with a certain blone haired Enforcer, a hero of his own right who stood by her through her greatest trials.

I aknowledge that the Cleric Knight has problems, but what you're doing right now is running away. Goose and Kagerou didn't give up when we started hammering Erusia, ATC didn't give up when we were complaining about his characters and their ideas, I didn't give up when my characters weren't what I wanted them to be. You know what we did? We didn't run away, we looked at the concepts, we changed them, we altered them we rebuilt them, often scrapping major ellements, and what came out where characters and scenarios that everyone was satisfed with and enjoyed.

Don't run away Kha. I know you can do better then that.

Wisest words I've heard for a long time.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by kazenoyuuchi

40K? Never heard of it.

Wait wait wait, you mean that you put the Warp, the immaterium, the barrier between them, the Belkans being responsible for that barrier, Daemons and all thatin your profile and you have no idea what Warhammer 40K is?

I think we have a genius in the making here, Kha.

Originally Posted by kazenoyuuchi

For now, I am thinking that the kidnapping happens when Vivio is 10, though nothing is really confirmed yet...

Ten, that's old enough to incur the wrath of Syn. :3

No worries though, I'm not going to force you to write with them.

Originally Posted by kazenoyuuchi

You had to remind me of the family... Now I've got a mental image of a sort of pathetic looking Johan running from a barrage of pink beams...

Great... Now red bolts and arrows have joined the barrage... What next??? Kha joining the assault from the front???

Poor Johan... looking pathetic in his creator's mind even before he is finished...

That's the Fate of those who mess with Vivio. >3

Originally Posted by kazenoyuuchi

Pulled whatever I had in mind for Johan through this... Got only a 6...
However, I shall go on with him even if he is an anti-sue (whatever that is...)!

A 6 still feels pretty pathetic though...

Actually, an anti-sue is the biggest compliment you can get in that test.

[kazenoyuuchi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Wait wait wait, you mean that you put the Warp, the immaterium, the barrier between them, the Belkans being responsible for that barrier, Daemons and all thatin your profile and you have no idea what Warhammer 40K is?

I think we have a genius in the making here, Kha.

That's pretty much it Though genius is not exactly the word that would use.

Must not let ego be stroked...Must not let ego be stroked...Must not let ego be stroked...

Originally Posted by Keroko

Ten, that's old enough to incur the wrath of Syn. :3

No worries though, I'm not going to force you to write with them.

No worries there. I plan on using Syn anyway

Originally Posted by Keroko

That's the Fate of those who mess with Vivio. >3

I don't believe it... I actually forgot Fate! Wouldn't be surprise if Kha decides to shoot me...

Originally Posted by Keroko

Actually, an anti-sue is the biggest compliment you can get in that test.

It is???
Silly me, then