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Old 2008-09-10, 12:02   Link #9521
yvj
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Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
That's a shame, then.

I still have Var to discuss with.
Cool keeping making poor arguments.

I'm trying to understand what you're saying for a civil discussion but the logic alludes me at the moment
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:04   Link #9522
Var
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Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
Happens a lot between people of the opposite genders...but in anime where there's three episodes left, you need to get a little more genre savvy if you think it doesn't already mean that.
Seeing as how you've missed my point that badly I'll reiterate: The information is new in that it is confirmation. A confirmation is new information. If it was not new information then it wouldn't be a confirmation. Get it through your thick skull that this information, while not surprising, is new. Her actions in the Episode were further to this end, but without the confirmation we did not know quite what was going on.

Everyone in this thread thought she loved him, now we know she does love him, but the method to reaching that end was not quite as we'd expected. Hence, new information. The fact that she 'likes him' was evidant (she kisses him), the fact that she 'loved him' was not to her character. Which comes from the information released that she realized it for herself.

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Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
Zero no longer exists besides Suzaku's title because Lelouch has been outed. Thus it would've been redundant to have said that otherwise. Therefore, we can conclude she's not following Lelouch.

"Zero" is who she followed for the longest time in the series and is more associated with it. The quote is pretty blatantly taken to mean that Kallen's flying solo. Lelouch is trying to change the world, and he's willing to destroy himself to do it.

When you come waltzing back to the guy who has been so horribly ambiguous to you for the entire fucking show, how on earth do you do anything other than follow orders when that's literally the only thing said character knows how to do, meaning issue them?
No, it would not be redundant. This show has made a point of distinguishing Lelouch from Zero, and vice versa. That aside it is irrelevant information because...

She will not be waltzing back to him, where did you pull that assenine idea out from? This is why I said you are assuming everything at every turn and twisting an ambiguous line to mean something unambiguous. This is a poor decision. All it says is that she will think and act for herself. Great. She can think and act for herself when she goes to save and stop Lelouch. She can think and act for herself when she puts a bullet in Lelouch's heart. She can think and act for herself when she goes and kills everyone for some arbitrary reason.

Ambiguous statements lead to many possibility. No where in the ambiguous statement does it, however, say that she is moving past Lelouch. That is a baseless assumption. And a logical fallacy.
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:41   Link #9523
scarlet512
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Poor argument. She did not make out with him, she kissed him. We know she was confused, she wanted an answer to why he wanted her to live. Its called spur of the moment. Happens a lot between people of the opposite genders.
Wow, which country do you live in? I'd want to be in a country which the opposite gender kisses each other in the spur of the moment...

...um no.
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:48   Link #9524
Darkcraft
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Originally Posted by scarlet512 View Post
Wow, which country do you live in? I'd want to be in a country which the opposite gender kisses each other in the spur of the moment...

...um no.
Huh i don't understand your point.
Anything can happen in the spur of the moment especially between a boy and a girl. If you can't be natural about this, your life can fastly be boring. Just follow your instinct if you have feeling or you ll get old too fast

Come to my country if you dream of this and go to parties or nightclubs, i don't even need to know the name of my partner to have sex
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:53   Link #9525
scarlet512
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Originally Posted by Darkcraft View Post
Huh i don't understand your point.
Anything can happen in the spur of the moment especially between a boy and a girl. If you can't be natural about this, your life can fastly be boring. Just follow your instinct if you have feeling or you ll get old too fast

Come to my country if you dream of this and go to parties or nightclubs, i don't even need to know the name of my partner to have sex
Ah, no wonder, you're from France.

Don't have this concept in Asia since it's quite conservative here so I doubt they have this concept in Japan. Therefore, I doubt the writers would be thinking of that.
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Old 2008-09-10, 12:55   Link #9526
Darkcraft
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in fact when kallen her kiss him she ask a question " do you love me"
and lelouch didn't answer
so she turn back and say sayonara

thats how i saw it. a question and an answer without using words. and i saw it as something really natural and easier to do without words than if they were talking
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:03   Link #9527
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by Darkcraft View Post
in fact when kallen her kiss him she ask a question " do you love me"
and lelouch didn't answer
so she turn back and say sayonara

thats how i saw it. a question and an answer without using words. and i saw it as something really natural and easier to do without words than if they were talking
The thing is though, there was no answer there. In fact there was nothing! All she saw was the Emperor mask, a mask devoid of any emotion.
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:08   Link #9528
Darkcraft
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i don't say his answer was his real feelings and what he really want but he did choose to reject her for a reason or another.
saying nothing and not moving at all is clearly a No
thats a respectful way to do it without hurting her. she is smart and don't need excuses or hurtfull words or seeing him looking his shoes to understand fastly
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:08   Link #9529
Pan chan
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Originally Posted by Darkcraft View Post

Come to my country if you dream of this and go to parties or nightclubs, i don't even need to know the name of my partner to have sex
LOL, The way you say it... Don't worry people, not everyone act the same in France. Narona, Lolipopo and I came from France and as far as I know we don't act like this
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:09   Link #9530
bladeofdarkness
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the kiss wasnt a quesion (from what ami says) but one more attempt to crack the mask
she didnt think about it too much before she did it and only figured what it meant to her after the kiss
so no answer just yet
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:18   Link #9531
Revolutionist
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So she realizes she likes him, then says goodbye to the guy she likes as if she wasn't gonna see him ever again, then says she's gonna take him out...
Ok we get it, women are irrational but that's just taking it to the extreme.

Suzaku was able to see right through the lies and understand Lelouch. But Kallen can't? If they're gonna go for another curb stomping then, well it would be dumb..
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:28   Link #9532
Pan chan
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Suzaku was able to see right through the lies and understand Lelouch. But Kallen can't? If they're gonna go for another curb stomping then, well it would be dumb..
He kept silence, that was the best defence against her. What, she should've kicked his ass until he was willing to talk ?
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:35   Link #9533
Darkcraft
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Originally Posted by Pan chan View Post
LOL, The way you say it... Don't worry people, not everyone act the same in France. Narona, Lolipopo and I came from France and as far as I know we don't act like this
ah perhaps i was too harsh
yea but you r still 3 youngs girls and not yet in active life
im already 29 and i can tell you women turn predators past 25. i even need cards with a false last name and cellphone number when necessary to leave peacefully when they learn im a doc and single.
Seems im not the only one cause friends do same trick and i already saw a girl trying my number directly front me when i gave it to her and caught me saying that wasn't first time she was given a false number. so i lose and give her the real one :x

Quote:
So she realizes she likes him, then says goodbye to the guy she likes as if she wasn't gonna see him ever again, then says she's gonna take him out...
Ok we get it, women are irrational but that's just taking it to the extreme
yes she realise but she must have feel fastly bad seeing him not moving after hug him. That's why she needed to turn back before being able to talk and say goodbye.
and yea in these times girls are irrationals and when they turn back and begin to leave she are waiting most of the time you go after her or say something.Thatts why lelouch says goodby with a really low voice she couldn't hear. they can even walk 100m and stop to give a eyes glance behind them. Thats different if they slap you

Quote:
Suzaku was able to see right through the lies and understand Lelouch. But Kallen can't? If they're gonna go for another curb stomping then, well it would be dumb..
understand it and accept it is 2 differents thing. and yes it easier to accept lies between 2 boys than between a boy and a girl especially when lies are about feelings
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:41   Link #9534
Narona
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Originally Posted by Darkcraft View Post
ah perhaps i was too harsh
yea but you r still 3 youngs girls and not yet in active life
im already 29 and i can tell you women turn predators past 25. i even need cards with a false last name and cellphone number when necessary to leave peacefully when they learn im a doc and single.
Seems im not the only one cause friends do same trick and i already saw a girl trying my number directly front me when i gave it to her and caught me saying that wasn't first time she was given a false number. so i lose and give her the real one :x
Your story sounds so fishy

I will never turn "predator".
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:41   Link #9535
Baixinho
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Originally Posted by Darkcraft View Post
i don't say his answer was his real feelings and what he really want but he did choose to reject her for a reason or another.
saying nothing and not moving at all is clearly a No
thats a respectful way to do it without hurting her. she is smart and don't need excuses or hurtfull words or seeing him looking his shoes to understand fastly
Huh... no. Just no. Not saying anything is everything but respectful in that particular case, it's behaving as an asshole. The girl begs you to tell the truth, if you have at least a little bit of respect for her you just answer, whatever the answer is. Not answering is telling her that she wouldn't be able to bear the truth : it would be basically treating her as a child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan chan View Post
LOL, The way you say it... Don't worry people, not everyone act the same in France. Narona, Lolipopo and I came from France and as far as I know we don't act like this
I'm also from France and I'm a guy, and I concur : I never slept with a girl I didn't know the name of.

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
So she realizes she likes him, then says goodbye to the guy she likes as if she wasn't gonna see him ever again, then says she's gonna take him out...
Ok we get it, women are irrational but that's just taking it to the extreme.

Suzaku was able to see right through the lies and understand Lelouch. But Kallen can't? If they're gonna go for another curb stomping then, well it would be dumb..
As irrational as it may sound, it is what Taniguchi decided to do. It's a fact now. I find it also kind of weird, but maybe it will be explained later
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Old 2008-09-10, 13:54   Link #9536
Vakir
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Seeing as how you've missed my point that badly I'll reiterate:
"Let's make assumptions about the argumentative competence of the opposing viewpoint so we can effectively argue a strawman without even creating one!"

Quote:
The information is new in that it is confirmation. A confirmation is new information. If it was not new information then it wouldn't be a confirmation. Get it through your thick skull that this information, while not surprising, is new. Her actions in the Episode were further to this end, but without the confirmation we did not know quite what was going on.
And yet, some people (or at the very least ZeroSama) are treating it as shocking or like some kind of incredible epiphany (to the audience) that Kalulu holds more credence now, but really it's about the same. That's what's irritating. It's not that the pairing is impossible, or even unlikely, it's that everyone melodramatically overblows every little piece of evidence or "evidence" to the point where it's unnecessary, and this is one of those examples. "OMG, KALLEN LOVES LELOUCH!" O rly?! Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that Milly did! No way, man. Totally out of left field. Didn't see it coming at all.

Quote:
Everyone in this thread thought she loved him, now we know she does love him, but the method to reaching that end was not quite as we'd expected. Hence, new information. The fact that she 'likes him' was evidant (she kisses him), the fact that she 'loved him' was not to her character. Which comes from the information released that she realized it for herself.
But was there any REAL doubt that she would realize it? Why are we treating this like some bold, unexpected twist or something? Lelouch is barely a hop away from being a walking Harem Gary Stu. Save Nina and relatives, there hasn't been a non-antagonistic female character that DIDN'T want his cock. So I'll concede it's new information, but why are we treating it like amazing new information?

Quote:
No, it would not be redundant. This show has made a point of distinguishing Lelouch from Zero, and vice versa.
Zero is gone, so it holds no significance. If anything it just says she's done following orders, period.

Quote:
She will not be waltzing back to him, where did you pull that assenine idea out from? This is why I said you are assuming everything at every turn and twisting an ambiguous line to mean something unambiguous.
Asinine. By the way, I'm not twisting anything. Kallen will be going her own way. And currently, there's no reason for her own way to involve anything with Lelouch on a friendly level.

Quote:
This is a poor decision. All it says is that she will think and act for herself. Great. She can think and act for herself when she goes to save and stop Lelouch.
She's not going to be saving him from anything. She'll be too engaged with Suzaku in combat to have any part in the Nunnally Lelouch Schneizel clusterfuck that will be taking place, and quite frankly, she plays almost no part in that feud besides her connection with Nunnally over the whole "oh we both have brothers we love!" dynamic. Having her show up going "oh hai guise, im the potential love interest" while the three of them deal with world politics, nukes, and family business would undermine all the drama. Keep her out of "saving" Lelouch, please.

Quote:
She can think and act for herself when she puts a bullet in Lelouch's heart. She can think and act for herself when she goes and kills everyone for some arbitrary reason.
If Kallen kills Lelouch or everyone, Zero Requiem ain't happening. No way that Lelouch can be that good at Xanatos Roulettes that he'd predict Kallen would cap his ass.

Quote:
Ambiguous statements lead to many possibility. No where in the ambiguous statement does it, however, say that she is moving past Lelouch. That is a baseless assumption. And a logical fallacy.
We can make inferences from ambiguous statements given the fact that Kallen has zero (see what I did there?) motivation at the moment beyond stopping the guy she loves who she should believe to be a complete psychopath at this point.
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Old 2008-09-10, 14:06   Link #9537
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Darkcraft View Post
understand it and accept it is 2 differents thing. and yes it easier to accept lies between 2 boys than between a boy and a girl especially when lies are about feelings
The thing though is that Kallen acted as one of Zero's closest associates throughout his term. When she found out the truth, she was scared but got over it with CC and continued helping him. She also was involved with his operations so she knows how he more or less operates and why he does it.

At the front he's an evil man but behind the mask he has other motives (like when he held Tian zi at gunpoint and laughed like a maniac). This is not the first time he had a mech crash in on some important meeting.

So having the other knights tell her about how he betrayed them is pretty bogus since she was already aware of his geass and so forth.

Techincally speaking she should know better or suspect that he has something else planned. Hell even Nina and Rivalz noticed something, asking why the hell Lelouch and Suzaku were making themselves look like the devil.
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Old 2008-09-10, 14:07   Link #9538
Vakir
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Techincally speaking she should know better or suspect that he has something else planned. Hell even Nina and Rivalz noticed something, asking why the hell Lelouch and Suzaku were making themselves look like the devil.
Yes and no. Nina and Rivalz only know the student Lelouch Lamperouge, so it's extra confusing. Kallen knows that Lelouch is capable of sinister dealings, even if he himself behind the mask can be a kind person.
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Old 2008-09-10, 14:09   Link #9539
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
Yes and no. Nina and Rivalz only know the student Lelouch Lamperouge, so it's extra confusing. Kallen knows that Lelouch is capable of sinister dealings, even if he himself behind the mask can be a kind person.
That's what I meant, he puts an evil mask on the front but he always has other motives behind it. She worked with him through his operations, she should know.

This is not the first time he's done something like this. Everything he's done always has something else happening behind the scene.
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Old 2008-09-10, 14:24   Link #9540
Vakir
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
That's what I meant, he puts an evil mask on the front but he always has other motives behind it. She worked with him through his operations, she should know.

This is not the first time he's done something like this. Everything he's done always has something else happening behind the scene.
I know. I'm saying that Rivalz and Nina being confused as well doesn't lend any evidence because they don't know any better. They only know the good Lelouch. But I agree there's something behind it, and we KNOW there's something behind it, because we don't know what Zero Requiem is.

However, at the same time, we DO know they legitimately want to conquer the world because we see them speak about it in private. So that is true.
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