Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by MarthX

It seems to me that many are using DEEN as a scapegoat for Umineko's imperfections. As soon as someone says something negative, it's automatically DEEN's fault.

as a scapegoat for Umineko's ANIME imperfections because i have no complains about the sound novel AT ALL except the first part of episode 4 i'm sure you would know which part but rather than that i love every single chapter in all episodes.

Although compare to higurashi deen is making a much better work but well i expect more.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by MarthX

I think a lot people are mistaking that just because they like a character because of a personality quirk, that means the character is well developed and everyone else should like them. The VN isn't perfect yknow. It too suffers from having a lot underdeveloped characters. You may like Gohda because he's a nice guy and wants to make good food for others, but from what I've seen, very few people care about him. (talking about VN readers here) Gohda's popularity on the net is mainly from "magical gohda chef", which has nothing to do with what's presented in the VN. Someone not liking Gohda or another character isn't necessarily the anime's fault, they might not cared about them in the VN either.

Everyone is too quick to place the blame on DEEN.

Someone doesn't like X? DEEN's fault.
Someone doesn't understand x? DEEN's fault.

It seems to me that many are using DEEN as a scapegoat for Umineko's imperfections. As soon as someone says something negative, it's automatically DEEN's fault.

I love Umineko as much as the next person, but I'm not going to pretend that it's perfect and nothing could be improved upon.

I must agree, Umineko is by no means a perfect story. Even when reading the visual novels there were things that I liked and didn't like.

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by MarthX

I think a lot people are mistaking that just because they like a character because of a personality quirk, that means the character is well developed and everyone else should like them. The VN isn't perfect yknow. It too suffers from having a lot underdeveloped characters. You may like Gohda because he's a nice guy and wants to make good food for others, but from what I've seen, very few people care about him. (talking about VN readers here) Gohda's popularity on the net is mainly from "magical gohda chef", which has nothing to do with what's presented in the VN. Someone not liking Gohda or another character isn't necessarily the anime's fault, they might not cared about them in the VN either.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what I or anybody else posted her, but whatever. As I stated in my post, I think most anime viewer picked up on the things they were supposed to about Gohda in those episodes of the anime, because I saw a lot of good response to him, the same sort of response I had when I read the SN (before I ever tuned into the magical Gohda Chef jokes).

I don't think anyone is saying the SN is perfect (I make fun of it all the time! Ryukishi has a lot of faults as a storyteller, beginning with the fact that he's pretty sexist at times, and ending with the fact that he's longwinded). I don't think it's unreasonable for people to critique the anime too. There's definitely people here who whine WAY too much about the anime's faults, but there's nothing wrong with critiquing the anime just as there's nothing wrong with critiquing the SN.

MarthX, you make a lot of good points most of the time about the adaptation, but sometimes you really come across as a overbearing busybody, and this is one of those times. There's a difference between cautioning people not to get to worked up about what to expect from the adaptation or not spoil the experience for anime-only viewers, and trying exert control over people's opinions and reactions.

[MarthX]

I'm not flat out telling people what they can and can't post. I'm just pointing out my observations. Despite all the problems DEEN has, I think people are too hard on them and are too quick to blame them anytime something comes up.

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by bigemperor

as a scapegoat for Umineko's ANIME imperfections because i have no complains about the sound novel AT ALL except the first part of episode 4 i'm sure you would know which part but rather than that i love every single chapter in all episodes.

Although compare to higurashi deen is making a much better work but well i expect more.

ANGSTfest was a problem for MOST (not everybody). But it's true many of things that happpen are DEEN's fault. But well, it's not another HIgurashi, so everyone shoould e glad they didn't also fit ep5 this season (you know they can and they would). And stilll, Umineko's undeveloped characters are most likely intentionally like that waiting for a better episode to do it. That doesn't apply to Gohda, most likely, Ryuukishi thought instead of writing in ep3 part (which would have been a bit dragging), he just released some TIPs with enough information, thus saving space

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Leinne

ANGSTfest was a problem for MOST (not everybody). But it's true many of things that happpen are DEEN's fault. But well, it's not another HIgurashi, so everyone shoould e glad they didn't also fit ep5 this season (you know they can and they would). And stilll, Umineko's undeveloped characters are most likely intentionally like that waiting for a better episode to do it. That doesn't apply to Gohda, most likely, Ryuukishi thought instead of writing in ep3 part (which would have been a bit dragging), he just released some TIPs with enough information, thus saving space

Are you so sure about DEEN not putting EP5 in?

EP4 and 5=4 episodes each. I think DEEN could pull it off.

Originally Posted by MarthX

I'm not flat out telling people what they can and can't post. I'm just pointing out my observations. Despite all the problems DEEN has, I think people are too hard on them and are too quick to blame them anytime something comes up.

Originally Posted by MarthX

Do us a favor and stop watching and posting here if you're gonna complain about everything.

[vandakiara]

yeah so what? EP3 would be 7 episodes and in the 8 left they'd stuff EP 4 and 5? that's not gonna happen, DEEN learned the 1st time with higurashi

[MarthX]

You're the exception to that, Workworkwork.

I can't stand constant whiners. It's fine if there's things you don't like and want to post about it. But if you complain about everything then why even bother watching it? Unless you watch it just so you can complain about it.

[Marion]

4 episodes for EP 4. They needed 5 episodes for EP 1 alone and even then stuff had to get cut, how the hell do you expect them to stuff an arc 3 times longer than the first arc into 4 episodes only.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Marion

4 episodes for EP 4. They needed 5 episodes for EP 1 alone and even then stuff had to get cut, how the hell do you expect them to stuff an arc 3 times longer than the first arc into 4 episodes only.

Just for the record, EP4 isn't even twice as long as EP1 if you're counting lines (it's only about half again as big, actually). It does have many more action scenes though.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Marion

4 episodes for EP 4. They needed 5 episodes for EP 1 alone and even then stuff had to get cut, how the hell do you expect them to stuff an arc 3 times longer than the first arc into 4 episodes only.

Well I think this time it really WAS a joke, at least I found it funny.
DEEN did make the mistake of trying to put too much into the first Higurashi season, I think that will stick with them for the rest of their existence...just like Shounen Jump is stuck with the image of their series being neverending or Square-Enix being stuck with the image of being greedy, that's the way it goes.

I think what annoys me among other people here, and here I'm on MarthX's side I think, is the fact that people just can't stop pointing out the same things for each episode...after a while you would think that one would have brought his point across and could move on, but for each episode you have to fight through another batch of posts which contain not more then 'DEEN is evil because they did XYZ' again and again.

Regarding the characterization, at this point in the VN there were still enough characters who lack development like hell...that's a problem that comes with mystery, you just can't reveal too much about certain characters, because it would not only give away possible culprits, it would also draw away suspicion from those who are innocent but don't seem to be.
In the 2nd 3rd of Episode 3 many characters were still a mystery, the only thing that stood out was, that there was of course more room for them to develop on the pure personal character plane, which still could all be an act for any of the characters...we saw how much the image of Rosa shifted at the end of Episode 2 and we will see how Eva will maybe change during Episode 3.

I still think the anime did rather well to portray the individual traits that were so very broadly described in the VN. Of course we can't have a full episode of development in a series as stuffed as this, but what Ryukishi portrayed in about 10-15 pages, can normally be expressed in a few simple gestures and sentences.
As far as this goes, every characters place as a mystery-archetype has been made clear so far:

Spoiler for mystery archetypes (cut for length):

Battler is the charming main character
Maria is the abused girl
Jessica is the butchy girl with a forbidden love
George is the nerdy boy with a forbidden love
Kinzo is the mysterious and anti-social family head
Krauss is the proud first son
Eva is the power-hungry second daughter
Rudolph is the wild son with the dandy-image
Rosa is the failing misunderstood youngest daughter
Natsuhi is the alienated, unhappy aunt
Hideyoshi is the joking uncle with the funny accent to keep spirits up
Kyrie is the intelligent, mystery-loving aunt
Genji is THE butler
Shannon is the clutzy maid
Kanon is the moody houseboy
Kumasawa is the mysterious, wisecracking old lady
Gohda is the scared and selforiented servant
Nanjo is THE doctor

Regarding the plot, their places have been made quite clear I think. In a typical mystery-crime-story we mostly get even less character development before people start dropping dead.
The anime delivers the rest rather 'along the way' and not in such an elaborated heart-wrenching way as the VN did...which is okay in itself, but can get equally boring as no development at all. But honestly, I wouldn't have needed 10-15 minutes of 'Natsuhi-drama' to get that she is the alienated one...
The anime is more like a real mystery-story in that manner, cutting much of the DRAMOOOARRRR that was delivered in the VN...good drama, but still exagerated drama.

[KanonTheFurniture]

Watched the RAW.

Spoiler for speed review:

-Rosa in the gold room without having her hint feels weird, but I guess it's fine. I'm nitpicking (like that's never happened in this forum...), but I do wish they had mentioned that.

-Okay, so Rosa and Eva are chatting in the gold room, and then they...teleported to the arbor? Ummmmmm...transitions, DEEN?

-I liked Rosa and Eva's discussion, even though they changed a few things. I think the calmer Eva was better here than the "OMG I SAID I'D TELL THEM DIDN'T I WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE ME I'LL DO IT OKAY?!" Eva of the VN, and it's still in character for her, just a different facet. I won't spoil why I think it's actually even more appropriate than Angry!Eva. Still, seems like they kept all of the important content intact, just interpreted differently, which is good since they skipped all the epitaph stuff. I'll have to wait for the subs to be sure, but it seemed perfect from what I could understand.

-The party without Happiness of Marionette does indeed feel weird, but I honestly don't care for the song that much (considering it's Eva-B's theme and I absolutely despise her). I think what they used worked well enough.

-Eva-B is too cute. Seriously, why didn't DEEN set aside its "Let's give Maria OMGCRAYFACE!!" budget for Eva-B, who really needs it?! I look at how she's drawn in the Anime and wonder how I'm supposed to hate her as much as I do.

-Lol Lambda

-Bern looks even more soulless with the new eye color. I guess that's a good thing.

-Goddammit I am so sick of hearing Suspicion... *sigh*

-Am I the only one who thinks Beato overdid it with the mascara in this shot?

-Moe Beato is Moe.

-Eva and Hideyoshi are too cute. One could only hope to have such a great marriage as these two some day.

-Glad to hear Voiceless in the Anime finally, since it's one of my favorite tracks.

-Not really a complaint, but I'm kinda disappointed they didn't leave in Maria's 'kihihihihihi' scene when Rosa is about to take her to the rose garden. I know I probably sound crazy because it means that DEEN actually skipped a CRAZYFACE opportunity, but I always thought that little scene was bizarre and suspicious, so I figured it had some importance to the all-important 'Maria's Rose' mystery (yes, I think this is very important, considering it's mentioned in every single arc so far).

-Ito did a great job with Eva's fever, and I thought the Eva voice switch was good too. Still preferred the Young Eva voice from episode 12, but what are ya gonna do.

-Nighteyes fit the torture scene really well if you ask me. Was kinda glad to see that whole deal shortened some, because it sickened me in the VN. ...does it say something about me that the corpses with their stomaches cut open and candy stuffed inside didn't bother me as much as this?

-Though hitting the ground like that without splattering is just kinda...uh...DEEN...?

-BeatOWNED.

-Ono and Ohara were both fantastic here as usual. I can't wait to hear how Ohara handles the 'nice' Beato for the rest of this arc.

-Ito however is...inconsistent. One minute she sounds like a more shrill version of adult Eva, then the next she's inhaled helium. I understand that she's elated after torturing Rosa so much, but the change is a little absurdly drastic before and after the Meta-World scene...

-Beato's 'gentle death' for Maria looked a little less gentle than I'd have imagined. I was hoping for something more along the lines of how Genji did it for Shannon and Kanon, though I like what they did for the throat marks.

Liked the episode, will probably give it an 8 once I see the subs, but as I said earlier I'm a bit wary of how early this episode ended considering what there's still left to cover...to avoid a repeat of the end of EP2's fate.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture

Spoiler:

-Nighteyes fit the torture scene really well if you ask me. Was kinda glad to see that whole deal shortened some, because it sickened me in the VN. ...does it say something about me that the corpses with their stomaches cut open and candy stuffed inside didn't bother me as much as this?

Same here, it sickened me quite a bit. The reason for me is... well, seeing dead bodies isn't that terrible, they may have been sliced open and damaged... but for all we know, they could've been killed peacefully and had the damage done after they couldn't even feel anything. Also, the whole Rika getting killed over and over and being found naked and sliced open in most arcs may have just numbed me to that.

But this was just unprovoked brutal torture... and I can't stomach or condone that on any level. Especially when it's done to a character that I like (I'm not that crazy for Rosa and Maria... but out of the whole family, they are probably my favorites... sadly. ^^; ).

[Used Can]

Actually, when I talked about characterisation, I was mainly talking about Battler and Beatrice - particularly the latter. Regarding the other characters, I honestly do not care much, but I think DEEN did a big mistake by skipping the introduction in EP1, which is very relevant. But, all the same, I don't think they've done a terrible job with the other characters.

I don't think they've handled the magic scenes poorly - although Rosa's scene at the end of EP2, and Beatrice vs Virgilia were quite underwhelming, in my opinion. All the same, I cannot say they were bad. I think, had I not read the SN beforehand, I would have found them quite fun.

About the music, that's not something I feel like complaining, but I think it would have helped to enhance those scenes. All the same, unless they completely screw it up during an important scene, I really don't mind what they do on this regard.

I think something DEEN does deserve praise is on the VAs. All of them have been quite remarkable - particularly Sayaka Ohara. Which is quite funny, because, at first, I just couldn't get used to her as Beatrice, but now I cannot think of her voice in any other way. Ono has also made an splendid work with Battler.

I wonder how they decide on the number of episodes. Is it something the TV stations give them, or do they actually decide on it? If it's the latter, I think it'd have been better if they had gone to 30-something episodes rather than 24. Umineko is quite a long story, and it has many minor details/scenes which are quite important, and removing them would sort of hinder on characterisation and/or development.

[Nochgo]

Uhh, I just don't like how Beato's personality changed so suddenly. Just because she was slapped once, she now sees how brutal she was? I thought she just had a twisted nature. Having lived for I don't know how long, and she just change for something simple as that? Battler should've slapped her much sooner >.>

And I still don't really understand why Eve became Beatrice. Is it only because she found the gold? What if a guy found it? Would he become the next 'Beatrice'? And so Beato isn't Beatrice anymore? Why is the game still going on then? Is all this explained in more detail in the VN?

This episode was particularity more confusing than usual...

[vandakiara]

Originally Posted by Nochgo

Uhh, I just don't like how Beato's personality changed so suddenly. Just because she was slapped once, she now sees how brutal she was? I thought she just had a twisted nature. Having lived for I don't know how long, and she just change for something simple as that? Battler should've slapped her much sooner >.>

And I still don't really understand why Eve became Beatrice. Is it only because she found the gold? What if a guy found it? Would he become the next 'Beatrice'? And so Beato isn't Beatrice anymore? Why is the game still going on then? Is all this explained in more detail in the VN?

This episode was particularity more confusing than usual...

it was this confusing in the VN as well... well maybe not for the eva-beatrice part... but as far as beato's behaviour goes, it'll be explained later...

[MarthX]

There's an answer to everything you asked but they would be spoilers..

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Nochgo

Uhh, I just don't like how Beato's personality changed so suddenly. Just because she was slapped once, she now sees how brutal she was? I thought she just had a twisted nature. Having lived for I don't know how long, and she just change for something simple as that? Battler should've slapped her much sooner >.>

And I still don't really understand why Eve became Beatrice. Is it only because she found the gold? What if a guy found it? Would he become the next 'Beatrice'? And so Beato isn't Beatrice anymore? Why is the game still going on then? Is all this explained in more detail in the VN?

This episode was particularity more confusing than usual...

Beato was looking at everything as a game, while Battler took it very seriously (I mean his family IS being mercilessly killed). So when Beato just kept laughing and saying how amusing this torture was he got pissed, because she was expecting Battler to laugh with her (since she took their personal relationship as a 'Go-Karting with Bowser' kind of thing - that even though they hate each other and try to beat each other in game, other times they can be friendly with each other). It would have been conveyed better if the clapping scene was there, ah but what can you do.

As far Eva becoming Eva-Beatrice, it depends on how you look at it. Was there really a witch that looks like Eva and was even recognized as Eva by Rosa, but the real Eva was inside her room. Maybe Eva-Beatrice is a representation of Eva? Make your own choice on it.

'Beatrice' is considered a title more so than a name, just as Virgilia was once called 'Beatrice' before giving her name/title and the powers of Endless to Beato.

[becky-chan]

After watching the subs,i can say that this episode was confusing,at the very least.
There were a lot of cute Beatrice scenes,too!Yay~! And the Beatrice bitch slap was great.
Also,after watching this episode,I like Eva alot better,I love the Hidiyoshi and Eva scenes,they're always so...dawww.
And yeah,hope to see more cute Beatrice in the future :3

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Nochgo

Uhh, I just don't like how Beato's personality changed so suddenly. Just because she was slapped once, she now sees how brutal she was? I thought she just had a twisted nature. Having lived for I don't know how long, and she just change for something simple as that? Battler should've slapped her much sooner >.>

actually, she didn't change at all. she has no clue why Battler got so mad; she found the whole scene fun and was expecting him to enjoy it with her. i don't think she understood she was cruel yet, she's just suprised/sad/confused he doesn't like her (lol), that's all.
it gets more clear with the dialog, i guess the whole scene would be easier to understand with the subs. (no shit sherlock )