(L) Simoun

[fignae]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

I haven't seen anything new on the manga version of the series. The last information on it goes up to December, 2006. At least Evangelion's manga went on after the TV series ended. I'll assume that the reason why they are no new manga of Simoun is because the author/creator was disappointed that his creation was not a commercial success. Thus decided to concentrate on other projects.

Huh? The serious manga was a commercial tie-in, and was never meant to be long. The other manga, practically self-parody, had 5 fun chapters that looked like a promotional and commercial venture (it was running in Megami, after all). The marketing machine may be separate from whatever ran through Nishimura's head.

Actually, darthfury78, I have heard of non-fans of Simoun who like the alt universe manga version. Comedy appeals to a wider/different audience, but it's not the same Simoun. (And yes, I know you're not suggesting your theoretical manga take this form.)

[darthfury78]

Actually, darthfury78, I have heard of non-fans of Simoun who like the alt universe manga version. Comedy appeals to a wider/different audience, but it's not the same Simoun. (And yes, I know you're not suggesting your theoretical manga take this form.)

Hi fignae,
Do you have any information on this version of Simoun regarding the alt. universe?

I now feel that the writers of the series were trying to aim towards the Straight, Lesbian, Gay, and Transgender market with this series from within the Yuri subtext. To put everthing into one aspect is certainly enough to put off a lot of people. But nevertheless, Simoun should make a come back in some fashion.

A lot of people have told me that the reason why Simoun isn't as popular as it should be is because the majority of anime fans believe that it's a transgendered show; and they found that disturbing.

Very tough to get rid of a stigma like that.

[darthfury78]

Here a thought that crossed my mind for a revised Simoun. Rather than to confirm a gender to the girl, the Spings could be used as a ceremony to confirm adulthood of both boys and girls. Or the transition from childhood to adulthood. The people are born either male of female. But at 17 years old, they must go to the Springs to become adults.

This revised concept would be acceptable to viewers and non-viewers alike. And it might get more viewers to watch the series without bring turned off by the transgendered issues that plagued the series. Any comments to my suggestion?

[fignae]

Actually, darthfury78, I meant that as partly a joke as well, because the other manga was terrible. I didn't finish reading it. I point you to Okazu for a brief review.

I've been reading your posts on the Simoun mailing list as well, and I have nothing to say other than... I love my little transgendered show, if such it is.

[Matrim]

A lot of people have told me that the reason why Simoun isn't as popular as it should be is because the majority of anime fans believe that it's a transgendered show; and they found that disturbing

Way to go with the sweeping generalizations...How can you know whether the majority of anime fans think that Simoun is disturbing because of the transgender element? As said, in this rather huge thread (admittedly filled mostly with posts by fans but there are quite a few negative ones) there are very few posts which would support you claim. Maybe the anime fans that you know are repulsed by the transgender issue which hardly proves anything about your average anime fan, be it in Japan or somewhere else. Anyway, even if you are right, what gives? Artistic integrity is way more important than what some narrow-minded viewers might think. It's not as if the lack of commercial success of Simoun have ruined Studio DEEN forever or something.

But nevertheless, Simoun should make a come back in some fashion.

For the umpteenth time - why? Why not just create a new show? A dumbed down Simoun is a loss-loss scenario - those who like the original will detest the new version and those who didn't, will probably not even give it a chance. Would you normally go and watch a new version of a film that you didn't like at all the first time you watched it?

Here a thought that crossed my mind for a revised Simoun. Rather than to confirm a gender to the girl, the Spings could be used as a ceremony to confirm adulthood of both boys and girls. Or the transition from childhood to adulthood. The people are born either male of female. But at 17 years old, they must go to the Springs to become adults.

Great idea. Let's see what will be censored..., I mean, missing in this, should I say family orientated, Simoun:

- Aaeru's reason of becoming a Sybilla (delaying the gender choice)
- Eri's drama
- Guragief and and Anubituf's vaguely hinted desire to make the choice again, so that one of them can be a woman since
- Onashia not making the choice because there isn't one in the first place cannot possibly portray the dangers of not making a choice. Just skipping the ceremony in your scenario for some reason surely woudln't drive the point home.
- The whole eternal maiden issue which was quite important for Choir Tempest's members
- The reason why the Argentians couldn't fly the Simouns and one fo the most fundamental differences between them and Simulacrum
- Most of the originality ands charm of the world
- The message realted to the stupidity of the traditional gender roles in our world (for instance Alti's desire to become a man becase shwe wanted to protect her sister).

Hm, come to think of it, not so great idea, after all.

[FatPianoBoy]

I agree with Matrim today.
Frankly, I've about had it up to here with all the gender subversion our society has been obsessed with lately, but Simoun managed to not get preachy or philosophical with it. In fact, the "Eternal Maiden" thing was, to me, more of a metaphor for adolescence than anything else.
Also, some very interesting issues were brought up because of it, most prominently the question of whether freedom or security is more important. Having the ability to choose your gender might seem desirable, but are you prepared for the emotional ramifications of making such a huge decision? Aaeru ran off to kill people simply because she didn't want to make the choice.
Perhaps never having to make the choice, but rather playing the hand you're dealt, would be better. Well, apparently Erii thought something like that, too...

My favorite thing about Simoun is that there is no clear message in it. It will mean different things to everyone, and it never pushes one viewpoint onto the viewers. It simply is what is, and portrays its issues in a frank manner while leaving the big conclusions entirely up to the viewer - something that is preciously rare during these times of social transformation.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Seconded. Although Maria-sama ga miteru seems to be pretty popular with the male audience, maybe it's because one knows what to expect from the start. Simoun starts with a bang, a lot of air combat in the first episode, fanservice galore and then it switches to character study, worldbuilding and rather short battles.

To be fair, the success of Maria-sama ga Miteru seemed to have caught everyone offguard. Studio Deen was basically making a version of Oniisama E with less melodrama; and it would have made sense if it appealed to a similar audience. Instead, it seemed to have managed to catch an otaku audience and spawned a subgenre of similar-themed shows.

On the other hand, I think that Simoun joins a long list of other excellent shows which have a relatively weak opening episode. On a rewatch, it's quite good, but it can be very off-putting to new viewers.

Originally Posted by darthfury78

I now feel that the writers of the series were trying to aim towards the Straight, Lesbian, Gay, and Transgender market with this series from within the Yuri subtext. To put everthing into one aspect is certainly enough to put off a lot of people. But nevertheless, Simoun should make a come back in some fashion.

I don't think that it's true. If the creators were trying to appeal to any one (or all) of these audiences, they could have easily made changes that would have contributed to that. However, it seemed as if they were much more concerned with telling exactly the story they intended to tell. The end result of such an approach is that they gave us an excellent show that's quite different from the other anime out there. On the downside, this difference also means that it's stuck with a relatively small audience and will never be much of a commercial success.

Originally Posted by darthfury78

This revised concept would be acceptable to viewers and non-viewers alike. And it might get more viewers to watch the series without bring turned off by the transgendered issues that plagued the series. Any comments to my suggestion?

It also will be extremely different from the Simoun that we got. I don't think that this would be a good exchange.

Besides, these fans are making an incorrect assumption. Simoun isn't really about transgender themes at all; instead, it uses the sex-decision as a device to explore the themes of growing up and the dichotomy between adults and children.

[darthfury78]

Regardless to my opinions, I certainly hope Simoun might return as an alternate universe version or a prequel, that would feature Amuria and Eri as part of the main cast lineup. For a bunch of minor characters who only appeared once or twice, they certainly made a lasting impression on me.

I was quite happy of the outcome of the girls choice of gender, which
I was quite satisfied with overall: The majority "Female" choice. I
only wish that the same could have been applied to Eri.

I have to admit that I am not a fan of Yuri anime at all. Simoun was
an exception because I read about it in the Anime magazine. I checked
for the series information on the character lineup when I came across
Eri's profile to learn that she was give the "Male" gender. So I look
up everything that I could find about this character. Only to find
out that she only appeared in the first two episodes, and was written
out of the storyline. When I read the summary for episode 2, I
couldn't help but feel sorry that the choice of gender was not that
of her own choosing. She was undecided as to which gender to have.
But I felt that she was seriously leaning towards the Female gender.
The Male gender was just a thought to her. But it would have been a
superficial choice if she had picked it, since she looked like a girl
who didn't want to leave her comfort zone. Nevertheless, a choice was
made for her. And the results were tragic for her, as she has to live
with this forced decision for the rest of her life as a man. She
might have been happier if the Female gender was given to her.

Were it not for episode 2, I certainly wouldn't be posting my thoughts
about Simoun. But at least they brought Erij back into the fold once
again, and might have come to terms with his new life. But I still
believe that he still sees himself as Eri, the girl he once was and
would die to get the chance to undo the curse that was placed upon
him so that he could pick the "Female" gender that was denied to him.

Sorry for the long chat. I just needed to get this out. While Simoun
is not in the same category as Naruto or Salor Moon, it has that
potential if unleased. And I rarely give such recommendations.

[darlliu]

Personally I think the whole gender selection thing is so central that the series wont be simoun at all if all characters are given gender at birth.Also I cannot understand how this will be disturbing to some people, I think it's a cool setting, everyone being free to choose what kind of gender role he/she is to take...at least most people I knew (though not westerners) never thought that way...so I dont think it has anything to do with simoun being commercially unsuccessful...

[darthfury78]

Based upon the response to my comments, I now believe that Simoun might be a huge hit in the U.S., especially if Adult Swim picks it up for its evening lineup. They are certainly known for that. They might be enough support for the creators to do a second season on the same format.

After all, what doesn't work in Japan would certainly work in the United States. The Big O is a very good example of that.

[Kaoru Chujo]

There is some news for Mamiina fans like myself. Her seiyuu, Morinaga Rika, has an art/gothic-rock band called function code(), which is putting out its first single, "Undying Love," this fall. Some of the PV (promotional video) is available on the band's website or on Rika's website. Seems to require a lot of bandwidth, so if you have trouble with that, there is an interview with her and part of a previous PV on YouTube. The PV is near the end of the clip.

Rika cuts quite a figure. She is a slight person under 4'11" (149cm), wears some wild (and attractive) outfits, and sings with strength and abandon. To give some idea of her image, she says in her blog that she is starting a new radio show next month called "Morinaga Rika's Outlaw Radio." She was represented by I"m Enterprise, the agency that had the recent scandal, but left them because, she said, her musical and seiyuu work had to be handled by one agency -- her.

She seems to be getting plenty of work since Simoun. She is Ren, the hero's little brother, in Kaze no Stigma, and has roles in Princess Resurrection, Seto no Hanayome, Touka Gettan, and Moetan.

On an entirely different mater, I'm glad that darthfury posted his/her thoughts and got the recent discussion going, but I agree with most people here that removing the "transgender issues" would make this no longer Simoun, but some other show. I don't think this could ever be a Naruto, since it's really the emotions and relationships and characters that are important, rather than the action.

It would be possible to make another show featuring similar technology, but it wouldn't be Simoun. Certainly, from my point of view, the shoujo-ai and transgender aspects of this show are the heart of the show, but I understand that many people in the world find them hard to deal with.

The discussion made me wonder if simply removing the sibyllae's kisses from the OP (lovely as they are) would have removed some of what put some people off. I can picture people either being repelled right away, before there is a chance for them to be captivated, or being led to expect more non-subtext yuri than the show provides.

In any case, despite the comparative lack of success in Japan, it is pretty wonderful that the show has been licensed for distribution abroad. I would never have expected it. Shows that someone thinks there is an audience for it.

I keep scanning the staff lists of new shows, looking for a show done by the same staff as this one. The director is writing and/or directing some episodes of Code-E, which is a pleasant show, but it's no Simoun.

[Iskandar Taib]

Originally Posted by darlliu

Personally I think the whole gender selection thing is so central that the series wont be simoun at all if all characters are given gender at birth.Also I cannot understand how this will be disturbing to some people, I think it's a cool setting, everyone being free to choose what kind of gender role he/she is to take...at least most people I knew (though not westerners) never thought that way...so I dont think it has anything to do with simoun being commercially unsuccessful...

I must admit, I couldn't WAIT to find out what each of them was going to choose. I must admit, I was surprised by Floe.

Like you, I see no point in wishing for a different Simoun. It was extremely good the way it was. One might as well wish for a Simoun set, for instance, under water. What would be the point? To me, whether or not it "makes it big" in the US is a non-issue - I wouldn't watch it on Adult Swim even if it made it on there, mainly because I can't stand dubbed or adapted anime.

[darthfury78]

On the other hand, I think that Simoun joins a long list of other excellent shows which have a relatively weak opening episode. On a rewatch, it's quite good, but it can be very off-putting to new viewers.

Agreed. If the writing was better executed, it might have had more support. Especially if they didn't force the Male gender issue upon Eri, rather than to give her the Female gender. This could have set a positive tone for the series. The writer responsible for writing episodes 1 and 2 should have thought clearly about the decision to kill off Amuria and to write out Eri from the storyline.

Deciding to give a character the "Male" gender in that episode was clearly a major turnoff for most viewers, since most of them are males to begin with. The "Female" gender would have been a well received send off for Eri to most viewers. If the intention of the writer was to make everyone tune in to Simoun, then it backfired early on. The stronger the early episodes, the better the retention rate that they would have received by the viewers. Does anyone agree?

[Iskandar Taib]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Agreed. If the writing was better executed, it might have had more support. Especially if they didn't force the Male gender issue upon Eri, rather than to give her the Female gender. This could have set a positive tone for the series. The writer responsible for writing episodes 1 and 2 should have thought clearly about the decision to kill off Amuria and to write out Eri from the storyline.

Aw fooey. I thought killing off Amuria was a masterstroke. It really got your attention, and was one of the main plot elements. It influenced what happened for the next.. 10 episodes or so. And that first episode weak??? Surely you jest. It was one of the most attention grabbing first episodes I've ever come across. I must've watched it four or five times, constantly rewinding and freeze-framing just so I could figure out what happened. There are so many characters, and a lot of the time you couldn't see them (only the Simoun they were in), so I couldn't figure out what had happened to whom until I'd rewatched it thoroughly.

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Deciding to give a character the "Male" gender in that episode was clearly a major turnoff for most viewers, since most of them are males to begin with.

"Most viewers"? Thou dost protesteth too much. I don't think most of us have this Eri fixation you seem to have. To us, she was a bit character, she played her part, exit stage right. This is a molehill, not a mountain.

Iskandar

[Question]

Anyone have a decent screencap of Waporif?

[WanderingKnight]

@darthfury78

I couldn't care less about people liking a series I love if I love it so much. Popular does not equal good. Striping the elements that made me love Simoun so much off it would've made it a mediocre series. Making characters not choose their gender would've dulled the whole point. Making it "appealing" to the "masses" would've turned it into a generic series.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by darthfury78

Based upon the response to my comments, I now believe that Simoun might be a huge hit in the U.S., especially if Adult Swim picks it up for its evening lineup. They are certainly known for that. They might be enough support for the creators to do a second season on the same format.

I doubt it. Simoun has almost no chance of being any kind of hit in the U.S., and the Cartoon Network would have almost no interest in this kind of show. Simoun's story is quite complete already, so there's also no real need for a second season.

Originally Posted by Iskandar Taib

And that first episode weak??? Surely you jest. It was one of the most attention grabbing first episodes I've ever come across. I must've watched it four or five times, constantly rewinding and freeze-framing just so I could figure out what happened. There are so many characters, and a lot of the time you couldn't see them (only the Simoun they were in), so I couldn't figure out what had happened to whom until I'd rewatched it thoroughly.

The first episode was weak largely because of what you just wrote. It was extremely busy, yet the attention seemed to be more on the Argentum attackers rather than the sibyllae. Furthermore, the creators made little attempt to give any context to the introduction of the characters or the unusual technologies shown. Most watchers aren't willing to rewatch an episode (and the first episode at that) multiple times just to understand what was going on.

[Kaoru Chujo]

The first episode is one of my favorite episodes in all anime. But I agree it probably turned a lot of people off, partly because of the gender issues, partly because it was somewhat hard to follow because of the terminology and the unusual situation.

To call it "weak" is using the wrong word, in my opinion, since I consider it extremely strong, especially in killing off one of the main characters almost immediately. But it certainly did not accomplish the aim of sucking in every viewer.

I've seen a similar phenomenon with the first episode of Touka Gettan. It was very hard to understand, so a lot of people made what I consider the mistake of abandoning that show early, too. Not that Touka Gettan is anywhere near the show Simoun was, but it does have a lot going for it.

The situation with Eri/Erif in the second episode is played perfectly, in my opinion, and to have her change into a female would be much less powerful. Her/his cry of despair was one of the highlights of the series, for me.

I believe that the US version of Simoun is just going to have subtitles and not dubbing, so I'm not sure if it's going to make TV -- although I don't know, since I don't watch anime on TV. Do any subtitled anime get onto US TV?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Choujo

The first episode is one of my favorite episodes in all anime. But I agree it probably turned a lot of people off, partly because of the gender issues, partly because it was somewhat hard to follow because of the terminology and the unusual situation.

I'd imagine that the people who would be turned off by the gender issues wouldn't watch in the first place. However, the disjointed narrative of the first episode gave it a bad impression. The worst part of it was that it likely turned away a fair number of people who would otherwise like the show.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Choujo

To call it "weak" is using the wrong word, in my opinion, since I consider it extremely strong, especially in killing off one of the main characters almost immediately. But it certainly did not accomplish the aim of sucking in every viewer.

It's weak in the sense that it doesn't accomplish what a first episode is meant to do. I find this quite common among shows set in intricate universes (Twelve Kingdoms jumps immediately to mind). They usually work much better on a rewatch, but they're just not that great for first-time viewers.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Choujo

Do any subtitled anime get onto US TV?

As a rule, no. The only chance such a show has of getting on the air is something like an International station. It wouldn't make much difference anyways since there's pretty much no station that would have been interested in Simoun to begin with. It's an excellent show, but there's almost no chance of it being much of a success in the North American market.

[darthfury78]

I couldn't care less about people liking a series I love if I love it so much. Popular does not equal good. Striping the elements that made me love Simoun so much off it would've made it a mediocre series. Making characters not choose their gender would've dulled the whole point. Making it "appealing" to the "masses" would've turned it into a generic series.

I agree that Simoun is indeed over in its current form. Although a new version of the show with new enamies and plotlines in an alternate universe would give a whole new direction for the series. The alternate universe version wouldn't affect the current series in any way. It would in a fact be a prequel that would feature Amuria and Neviril as the lead characters, in addition to most of the early team intact. The yuri and the transgender issues would be non-existant. I am quite positive that this version would bring back a lot of viewers and non-viewers alike. Especially for those who were offended or put off by the original series contents.

But those are just my own accessment. The producers and directors of Simoun could have made the series incredible without the use of the transgendered and yuri elements. While I agree that it made the series unique, the direction that they chose ran this series into the ground. I don't believe that this is the last that we'll see of Simoun. It might one day return. But without the controversial issues that plagued the original series.