Character Discussion - Shirley

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Argh, Shirley is tall as hell. 1,74 at least? Jezz. But hey, Clamp love to make taaaaaaall characters, so i guess that was expected.

Ha ha, well I guess she does win out in that category of the Lelouch love trio. That is, if height is any requirement Hmm, but if CLAMP loves tall girls why didn't they make C.C. the tallest?

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Well, she is a swimmer. Tall and slender is what comes to my mind when you ask me to visualise a female swimmer.

Hmm, wouldn't have the slightest idea about what makes a good swimmer, physically. But visually, yes, I would imagine so. I just don't understand how she gets all that hair in that little bathing cap.

[yezhanquan]

Actually, to be a good swimmer, you should have some muscle. Truth be told, Shirley is unlikely to win at competitions, if you ask me. As for the hair, I put it down to hammerspace.

As a character, Shirley was there as a civilian's viewpoint to the struggle between the various factions. I don't particular like or dislike her (which is my assessment for about half the CG cast).

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

Actually, to be a good swimmer, you should have some muscle. Truth be told, Shirley is unlikely to win at competitions, if you ask me. As for the hair, I put it down to hammerspace.

Well, we don't know exactly how much muscle Shirley has. I mean look at Suzaku. He's probably the most physically adept character in Code Geass, and he's not exactly surging with muscle. She must have more than Lelouch at any rate (who doesn't?)

Oh, and LOL. Hammerspace. I learned a new word today.

As a character, Shirley was there as a civilian's viewpoint to the struggle between the various factions. I don't particular like or dislike her (which is my assessment for about half the CG cast).

Hmm, I wouldn't exactly say that about her character. I don't think she particularly cared too much about the struggle between Britannia and the Black Knights. Her role was definitely that of a civilian to be sure, but I think more a show of the consequences of a civilian getting caught up in Lelouch's affairs. Of course there are other elements to her character.

[yezhanquan]

Well, she reflects the status quo, as she's not Japanese. In fact, apart from Lelouch and Kallen, most of the students seemed ok with the status quo. As for Suzaku, I don't even want to touch him. Damn guy can't even formulate his thoughts properly.

[Kid Ying]

What? Suzaku is very smart.

But that's it, Clamp likes everything tall and thin, so even Suzaku, a superhuman, looks like an average skinny guy.

Nobody... Well, i don't know. Well, C.C is tall too, just not as tall as Shirley and the other girls. Naybe Clamp was trying to make something new with her, hehe.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

What? Suzaku is very smart.

but he cant seem to decide which side he's on or what he is actually trying to do
he hates the status quo and the suffering of the japanese people under britannian rule
which is why he seeks to change the system from within and make life better
but in trying to gain the power to make such changes he ends up aiding the very people who make the japanese suffer and harming the people who help them

for a good example you have his actions during the 2nd ep
lelouch turns the tied of battle in shinjiku using strategy and so the lancelot is sent for the first time to defeat the terrorists and save the day for britannia
the only problem is that the the "terrorists" were the ones keeping britannia from slaughtering every man woman and child in the getto
and now that they are defeated the army can get right back to the task at hand (namely killing off all the rest of them)
and its only lelouch's actions that prevent this from happening

i like him
but the man is a walking contradiction
he's the "Hero" of the "evil team"

[yezhanquan]

Well, we can continue on Suzaku over at his thread.

So... yeah. Shirley is a nice girl, but there are forces out there which changed her life forever.

[Amray]

I thought Shirly was quite an important character to have. She was just the typical schoolgirl which most school-themed anime series' need to look at things from another perspective. Also this gave directors the chance to make an emotional scene between Lelouch and a close peer; such as when her father is killed due to Lelouch's actions and he has to face this. He is even the person that she runs to after it happens, making it more emotional even more so as she kisses him. This is also showing viewers that Lelouch really would do anything to reach his objective as he faces this incident and shows practically no regret, even though she is quite a close friend of his.

Also, we have some mysterious girl fancying Lelouch, we have a member of the Black Knights fancying Lelouch, we have Britannians that fancy(ied) Lelouch, so there should be no problem with a little love story between Lelouch and a simple school colleague. Plus, she was also really bloody cute.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Amray

I thought Shirly was quite an important character to have. She was just the typical schoolgirl which most school-themed anime series' need to look at things from another perspective. Also this gave directors the chance to make an emotional scene between Lelouch and a close peer; such as when her father is killed due to Lelouch's actions and he has to face this. He is even the person that she runs to after it happens, making it more emotional even more so as she kisses him. This is also showing viewers that Lelouch really would do anything to reach his objective as he faces this incident and shows practically no regret, even though she is quite a close friend of his.

Also, we have some mysterious girl fancying Lelouch, we have a member of the Black Knights fancying Lelouch, we have Britannians that fancy(ied) Lelouch, so there should be no problem with a little love story between Lelouch and a simple school colleague. Plus, she was also really bloody cute.

Well, he does show regret and frustration over what happened. If you watch Stage 13 in the beginning, that is quite obvious. But, he just has to continue his mission, embracing carnage as he said.
But yes, Shirley was one of the most important side-charas, seeing as events surrounding her, had impact on the plot and Lelouch's actions. //and lol, at Lelouch's soft side too, come on, when has ever Lelouch initiated a hug with a girl? Yeah sure, guilt-factor too, but w/e. |DD

[yezhanquan]

If the producers haven't put that subplot in, I would not have taken Lelouch seriously. Even C.C. warned him that revolutions are no picnics. At least he tried to set things right by removing her memories.

Hollywood Homely is how I'll describe her looks.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

If the producers haven't put that subplot in, I would not have taken Lelouch seriously. Even C.C. warned him that revolutions are no picnics. At least he tried to set things right by removing her memories.

Hollywood Homely is how I'll describe her looks.

But one purpose of Shirley's chara, was that she was an innocent by-stander, that got entangled into the mess in-direlcty, "reminding" Lelouch, that he has to sacrifice the happiness of his close friends at times, in order for his rebellion to work.
Ah, in a nutshell, Shirley is like the epitome of "shit hits the fan", like honest.

[Amray]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well, he does show regret and frustration over what happened. If you watch Stage 13 in the beginning, that is quite obvious. But, he just has to continue his mission, embracing carnage as he said.
But yes, Shirley was one of the most important side-charas, seeing as events surrounding her, had impact on the plot and Lelouch's actions. //and lol, at Lelouch's soft side too, come on, when has ever Lelouch initiated a hug with a girl? Yeah sure, guilt-factor too, but w/e. |DD

He may present some guilt in the episode after and when Mao manipulates her, but by the next episode he was laughing again and dedicated to destroy the empire. Even for a fictional character, one has to admire his determination. He wants only Nunnally to be happy from the look of things, and to live happily in a new nation.

It was somewhat sad when Shirley forgot some of her feelings towards Lelouch though; such as calling him "Lulu". I thought that they let her find out Lelouch was Zero for a little exciting twist to the story that would not last a few episodes; although she found out that he was Lelouch again straight afterwards because of her diary. I didn't expect that to happen so soon.

[yezhanquan]

It was sad that it had to be her. But, personally, I think the Euphie-nator incident was a Wall Banger to many people. It was, after all, a joke. Which triggered a command because someone's Geass went haywire. Nice timing.

As for Nunnally being at the heart of Lelouch's aims, besides the anime, I think NoN explores the theme pretty well.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Amray

He may present some guilt in the episode after and when Mao manipulates her, but by the next episode he was laughing again and dedicated to destroy the empire. Even for a fictional character, one has to admire his determination. He wants only Nunnally to be happy from the look of things, and to live happily in a new nation.

Well, that is Lelouch for you. Besides, Shirley's speech in the end of Stage 14, was pretty much inspirational. And Lelouch does show a sad-annoyance, when Shirley does not recognize him, in Stage 15, he says after her asking him questions, "that is enough" <--indicated a bit of sadness-nostalgia. {tone of voice}

And, yeah, the "Lulu"-bit, ah, glued with Shirley. 8D

[ginran]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well, that is Lelouch for you. Besides, Shirley's speech in the end of Stage 14, was pretty much inspirational. And Lelouch does show a sad-annoyance, when Shirley does not recognize him, in Stage 15, he says after her asking him questions, "that is enough" <--indicated a bit of sadness-nostalgia. {tone of voice}

And, yeah, the "Lulu"-bit, ah, glued with Shirley. 8D

Shirley and her inspirational speeches...there was the one in stage 14 and the "Love is Power!" one...plus, THAT one...but you gotta love those things she said. Anyways, the one at the end of stage 14 was one of my favorite scenes. Shirley's speech + Masquerade + ShirLulu was just great, even if it was sad. Poor Lelouch, you could see he was upset then when she asked if he lost a family member, and he looked down and said how he'd miss her smile and those things...

and the "Lulu"! XD I always wondered when she started calling him that...and its cute how she's the only one who calls him that. except, I think Milly said it once to tease her, but other than that, its just Shirley.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by ginran

Shirley and her inspirational speeches...there was the one in stage 14 and the "Love is Power!" one...plus, THAT one...but you gotta love those things she said. Anyways, the one at the end of stage 14 was one of my favorite scenes. Shirley's speech + Masquerade + ShirLulu was just great, even if it was sad. Poor Lelouch, you could see he was upset then when she asked if he lost a family member, and he looked down and said how he'd miss her smile and those things...

and the "Lulu"! XD I always wondered when she started calling him that...and its cute how she's the only one who calls him that. except, I think Milly said it once to tease her, but other than that, its just Shirley.

Yeah, the way this scene was orchestrated, was really amazing. And the night-concept, i really loved it, definitely in my top-5.

And yeah, Lelouch realized what it is always said "you do not cherish something, till the time you lose it." Shirley was a great friend for him {and maybe could be something more potentially, if it was not for the Zero path //Shirley's question} and it was exactly what he said. The friends-silly-arguments and the smiles-around-the-friends, might seem like simple things but in reality, they are so important. And that is why Lelouch was looking that sad in that moment, he could never go back to those days. Another realization, that his Zero persona, was not nice-flowers, like at all.

[ginran]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Yeah, the way this scene was orchestrated, was really amazing. And the night-concept, i really loved it, definitely in my top-5.

And yeah, Lelouch realized what it is always said "you do not cherish something, till the time you lose it." Shirley was a great friend for him {and maybe could be something more potentially, if it was not for the Zero path //Shirley's question} and it was exactly what he said. The friends-silly-arguments and the smiles-around-the-friends, might seem like simple things but in reality, they are so important. And that is why Lelouch was looking that sad in that moment, he could never go back to those days. Another realization, that his Zero persona, was not nice-flowers, like at all.

exactly, such a great, memorable scene!

its very tragic how he started to realize all those things, but that he knew he couldnt turn back at that point, because lives were lost and they shouldnt be lost in vain...

[Sol Falling]

Che. I delayed too long in typing up this huge post (4-5 days I guess) and my browser crashed. Still: awesome, a Shirley thread (a rather late 'congratulations' to Nobodyman9 btw).

:P Anyway. Although I was really happy to see a Shirley thread, and it made me want to post in the Code Geass subforum again, even so, reading through it, I am reminded again that even among fellow Shirlulu fans, my views might be a bit alternative. For one thing, I was one of those guys mentioned earlier (??? maybe the only person?) who was making a case for Stage 12's kiss being manipulative on Shirley's part, and that being a good thing. Other places I seem to diverge from the fandom include my rejection of the shallowness of Shirley's R2 relationship with Lelouch (before she got her memories back) -- interactions, at that point, based on false memories and a fake/incomplete/distant Lelouch -- and my resulting dislike (at least in terms of execution, which might as well be everything) for their narrative theme of reincarnation. So far as I am concerned, Shirley fell in love with Lelouch but once.

Continuing on this 'reincarnation' thing; One thing many Shirlulu fans seem to like to say and to be satisfied with is "in another place and another time, Shirley and Lelouch could have been together." One recurrant variation of this is also "if Lelouch never met C.C./got Geass". This latter thought also hints at the idea of Lelouch rejecting Geass even after he gets it for Shirley's sake, so can't completely deny it as I too held onto that idea for quite some time, only rejecting it by the series' final resolution. However, by the end of Lelouch's story, I think it became quite clear that he was never meant to live a quiet life: because he had been betrayed by the world, had suffered by it -- so as long as that world which had betrayed him so many times remained the same, Lelouch could never rest.

Furthermore, from Shirley's point of view, it was probably exactly that undercurrent of faithlessness, that air of careful disengagement towards a world which had betrayed him, which would not allow him happiness, that compelled her to try to save him. So what I am saying here is basically that since it was precisely the events of Code Geass which made Shirley love Lelouch, and it was precisely Lelouch's restlessness which made Shirley's love so meaningful, any other world -- other place or other time -- completely divorced from these events, and the feelings and actions associated with them -- is rather pointless.

Okay, enough picking fights with my fandom. A few days before I ran into this thread, I coincidentally (coincidentally, because I don't do it often) happened to be browsing some Code Geass fanfiction. One fic in particular, though terribly impressive technically, seemed to miss the essence of Lelouch's character (it was another Shirley deathfic). Of course, for me to presume to say something like that, I had to have spent some time thinking about what exactly the essence of Lelouch's character was, which is just what that fanfic (cum the author's post-fic comments about not being able to get in the character's heads) inspired me to do. Lemme share my thoughts.

The essence of Lelouch's character is a spirit of destruction. What I am referring to by this is not just Lelouch's rebellion, his political and personal vengeance against his father, but more importantly his abandonment of all he has to achieve that -- his willingness to hurt others and himself for his goals. Something is broken within Lelouch, and it is that brokenness which allows him to forget dreams and memories (hopes and histories; treasured pasts and what-could-have-beens) in the blink of an eye. Lelouch does not hesitate, does not stop to reminisce, flings himself forward into chaos and oblivion with complete abandon.

The root of all this is betrayal. It is a simple lack of faith. The death of his mother and abandoment by his father represented affected him more deeply than mere personal loss or a shift in idealogy: it was a shattering of all his faith. What Lelouch learned was that a kind and gentle world was fragile, and could be taken away in a second.

(You might say that this happened again in his separation from Suzaku. And so it was that Suzaku recognized this, recognized what a long chain of betrayals not by people but his very chance, fate, and reality had done to him, which is why he said, in the first season's finale, "You will betray the world, because the world has betrayed you too".)

If this was the Lelouch thread, I might go on a bit more about the aforementioned shifts in idealogy. How Lelouch's worldview guided his actions is pretty interesting in light of the entire Code Geass narrative. However, this is the Shirley thread, and what I meant to do here was talk about why her love was so meaningful. So I will talk about betrayal.

In the sum of it, I think the way Lelouch treated Shirley (and her memory) was pretty disgusting. He lied to her, manipulated her, avoided her, used her, decieved her, generally forgot and abandoned her, and I don't know if these are the big or little things, because there's one more: Lelouch also walked away from all he knew of her twice without looking back. I think it was the eventuality of the latter which lead to all the former, though, while the cause of the latter was only this: a kind and gentle world is fragile, and it can be taken away in a second. Or rather, it would be taken away: after all, if this mistaken, betraying world had killed his mother, crippled his sister, left him abandoned in Japan and stolen his only friend, hunted after him, stole Shirley from him, put Suzaku in the cockpit of Lancelot, made an enemy of Euphie only to take her the moment he had accepted her again, stolen Nunally, stolen even his memories -- and made Suzaku shoot and bind and surrender him, even made Nunally turn away from him -- then of course it would kill Shirley too, and of course it would need to be destroyed. Happiness was not for him; the reason Lelouch could walk away from Shirley forever, and dive headfirst in chaos and carnage, is obvious: in his heart he had always been prepared for it.

That is to say, to Lelouch betrayal (loss; the shattering of his expectations and the denial of his wishes) had become commonplace. Shirley's death was simply one in a long series of betrayals, which began with his mother, which eventually ended with his mother; like all the other times, he simply picked himself up and moved on, along his path of carnage and destruction. However, this one death did echo back to his mother, with an anguished scream saying all his faith was being broken, one more time: because Shirley represented something to give him faith again. Although one truth, one small pair of eyes and ears, could never have hoped to understand him completely, she could have taught him he wasn't alone; because she had loved him, and understood enough. Although one truth, one small kindness and gentleness, could never have hoped to replace all he had lost, she could have taught him not to betray his own self; because she had waited for him, and believed in his happiness, and had resolved never to betray him either. And although one truth, one small sword or shield, could never have hoped to overcome a world of hostility, she could have taught him to forgive, to see past terrible truths and deeds into hearts that are lost or are suffering, or yet bear only kindness and gentleness, and understand it was not the world's meaning to betray him -- because she had done so herself, had been betrayed by him twice, and still had managed to see and forgive.

The reason she could have done all this is simply that she understood the root, and that it had always been the core she had been concerned with. Like I said near the beginning, it had always been Lelouch's lack of faith in the world which drew Shirley towards him. It was his lack of faith which had intrigued her about him, and it was his lack of faith she inevitably wished to correct. Shirley first saw someone who stood apart from the world, who did not believe in the pursuit of his own happiness, and gave him friendship: then she saw that separation become a wish to destroy it, that happiness both stolen and being pushed away, and, percieving to the core of him -- of a world unceasingly against him, and a lonely struggle against all that it stood for -- offered him love. Had this small love, this small portion of kindness and gentleness which would never betray him, been allowed to him, then I believe Lelouch could have hoped for more than the destruction and reconstruction of everything, and smiled that tranquil smile before his death.

edit:

Well as an end note, given the current discussion about what Shirley meant as a character: sorry for interrupting! But, it seems like I disagree with a ton of you about a lot of that stuff too. *sigh* lol perhaps I'll write another wall of text later, but I'm not sure how constructive that would be. :P

[morbosfist]

I'd rep you for that if I could. Nice long post, and I agree with most of it. This confuses me a bit, though:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Had this small love, this small portion of kindness and gentleness which would never betray him, been allowed to him, then I believe Lelouch could have hoped for more than the destruction and reconstruction of everything, and smiled that tranquil smile before his death.

He did seem to be smiling as he was dying, if only because he's reliving what little happiness he had. The part about hoping for more than remaking the world is also a bit perplexing. What else exactly would he hope for?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The reason she could have done all this is simply that she understood the root, and that it had always been the core she had been concerned with. Like I said near the beginning, it had always been Lelouch's lack of faith in the world which drew Shirley towards him. It was his lack of faith which had intrigued her about him, and it was his lack of faith she inevitably wished to correct. Shirley first saw someone who stood apart from the world, who did not believe in the pursuit of his own happiness, and gave him friendship: then she saw that separation become a wish to destroy it, that happiness both stolen and being pushed away, and, percieving to the core of him -- of a world unceasingly against him, and a lonely struggle against all that it stood for -- offered him love. Had this small love, this small portion of kindness and gentleness which would never betray him, been allowed to him, then I believe Lelouch could have hoped for more than the destruction and reconstruction of everything, and smiled that tranquil smile before his death.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one. Great post btw ~