Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by bismuth

Where does the hougou come from? How are they created? Does the novel give any explanation? From the anime it would appear that the hougou would randomly be created on a torch.

I'm also curious about the Reiji Maigo. How did Pheles create that thing? Did the novel explain it? Probably not.

Most Hougus are created by Crimson Denizens or Flame Hazes using PoE as one of the raw materials. There are occasions when a Hougu is created by humans, the most famous example is the swordsmith contributing his own PoE to form the formidable katana Nietono no Shana.

Mistes are just containers to carry the Hougus. Once the existing Mistes has his PoE extinguished, the Hougu inside would be transported to another Torch in a random location. That Torch would become a Mistes.

Though I've yet to read up to that part, how do you know the novels did not explain how Pheles create that thing? Are you asking a question or are you speculating?

[KaneDragon]

The creator of the Raging Mango is the part of SnS that I was spoiled about earlier, but... shouldn't that be spoiler tagged? Not that it really matters, but it reminds me of the other spoilers I know.

[OuterRem]

Hey all. I've been watching the second season and after seeing episode 4, I've started wondering some things. More than anything I have questions.

Ok we know that the rank of power generally goes like this; Kings > Denizens > Rinne > Mistes > Torches. And a Human actually has waaay more PoE than a Rinne, but has no ability to use it for anything.

But then Alastor goes and says something in episode 3 that really bothers me; He says "Reiji Maigo is constantly refilling your energy every night to the level of a King" to Yuuji.

So now everything is broken to me, because these categories that they made don't mean anything so long as you have PoE.

Cue my question.
-------------------------------

Are Rinne really stronger than a Torch? A Torch can last weeks, months maybe even years on its energy because it is stable and tapping into it at a fixed rate. Most Rinne that show up last about 3 days before they expire if their Denizen isn't feeding them constantly.

Cue my speculation.
----------------------------------

Could a Torch, theoretically...

A. Consume something else to gain more PoE.

B. Destabilize itself to have full access to its own PoE and essentially enter a "Rinne-like" state.

--------------------------------
I ask all these strange questions because, if I were a Torch, I would take it as the 'third chance'. The possibility of achieving immortality through consumption of first, other Torches, then Rinne, and finally Denizens, and if possible, Kings. All I'd have to learn to start on that road is how to Destabilize myself so that I have full energy access so that I can become a destructive entity, and how to Re-Stabilize myself so that I can again go for long periods of time without wasting life force.

I mean why not? All these "names" are subjective and just make you forget that whoever has the most energy wins.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by OuterRem

Spoiler for to save room:

Hey all. I've been watching the second season and after seeing episode 4, I've started wondering some things. More than anything I have questions.

Ok we know that the rank of power generally goes like this; Kings > Denizens > Rinne > Mistes > Torches. And a Human actually has waaay more PoE than a Rinne, but has no ability to use it for anything.

But then Alastor goes and says something in episode 3 that really bothers me; He says "Reiji Maigo is constantly refilling your energy every night to the level of a King" to Yuuji.

So now everything is broken to me, because these categories that they made don't mean anything so long as you have PoE.

Cue my question.
-------------------------------

Are Rinne really stronger than a Torch? A Torch can last weeks, months maybe even years on its energy because it is stable and tapping into it at a fixed rate. Most Rinne that show up last about 3 days before they expire if their Denizen isn't feeding them constantly.

Cue my speculation.
----------------------------------

Could a Torch, theoretically...

A. Consume something else to gain more PoE.

B. Destabilize itself to have full access to its own PoE and essentially enter a "Rinne-like" state.

--------------------------------
I ask all these strange questions because, if I were a Torch, I would take it as the 'third chance'. The possibility of achieving immortality through consumption of first, other Torches, then Rinne, and finally Denizens, and if possible, Kings. All I'd have to learn to start on that road is how to Destabilize myself so that I have full energy access so that I can become a destructive entity, and how to Re-Stabilize myself so that I can again go for long periods of time without wasting life force.

I mean why not? All these "names" are subjective and just make you forget that whoever has the most energy wins.

The thing is:

Kings are Denizens, except they are stronger.
Rinne are servants.
Torches are not the same as beings of the Crimson World, while Mistes are simply treaure-holding Torches.

Kings/Denizens/Rinne are not the same as Torches/Mistes.

It's like pointing to a monkey and saying you're far more superior. Yes you are, but no one really cares and it isn't significant.

It isn't the fact/question if a Rinne is stronger because they don't even function the same way.
Torches can't move anyways, and they usually don't even know they are torches. Once it gets too small, their personality, etc. disappear too.

Their purpose is different too. Rinne are created by Denizens to gather Power of Existence so their time/lifespan doesn't have to be long and no one has to care about them.
Torches keep the balance. They are very important, thus the time/lifespan should fit to the amount of time needed to keep the balance.

Thus for your speculation:

Probably no because in the first place, torches don't have that kind of ability and are really just humans.

Yuuji is an exception, because he was lucky enough to hold the Midnight Lost Child.

[OuterRem]

I think I phrased that wrong, that's why I ended up getting this answer you have given. All of which you say is true, but not really what I meant when I asked.

Your right, the reason they have these categories is because each serves their purpose. Rinne go out and gather energy like harvesters, for their masters. We can consider them Low Cost High Maintenance Short Lifespan workers. Torches are placeholders for those already erased. They are Low Cost Low Maintenance Long Lifespan workers.

This economy of energy I already understand, though thanks again for reminding me because I forgot some of it. What I meant was basically; Aren't they all composed of the SAME energy? I'm made of atoms like my car is. I can't however change myself into a car. I know this.

But Torches, and Rinne are both created by Denizens, or basically these intruders, Kings or Hazes or not.

So what stops one from becoming another if it chooses to.

Why can't a Torch choose to prolong its life by consuming this energy and putting more fuel in the fire that is burning inside them.

Because I think the only thing that stops them is that they don't know how, but I can't seem to think of them stating a rule that they CAN'T. Which is what makes the difference.

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Yuuji is an exception, because he was lucky enough to hold the Midnight Lost Child.

That's exactly what I mean. How come he has the space to fit all this energy he gets in season 2 in the first place; Hecate gave it to him, by accident, right? So now, if he can fit so much energy into himself, can't another torch somehow manage to do the same thing (turn into a bigger container), and by devouring others get energy to fill this space instead of having a deus ex machina give it to them. Sure it would slowly burn away, but slowly instead of fast, like that Rinne in season 1.

[hayate-sama]

So what stops one from becoming another if it chooses to.

Why can't a Torch choose to prolong its life by consuming this energy and putting more fuel in the fire that is burning inside them.

Because I think the only thing that stops them is that they don't know how, but I can't seem to think of them stating a rule that they CAN'T. Which is what makes the difference.

I thought each torch which is represent for the person who disapear need that person PoE to exist, that mean each person has there special PoE, which cannot be refill by another Poe but with Tomogara or rinne, it is just PoE.

So what do you think if yujji refill every torch 's PoE at mid-night by his "midnight lost child" then the world balance will be break for sure.Even if yujji have renji maigo, as far as I remember, he could only live as long as an average human - not inmortal like shana but later they said in the anime that yujji can stayed with shana forever so which one is correct ?

[OuterRem]

Originally Posted by hayate-sama

I thought each torch which is represent for the person who disapear need that person PoE to exist, that mean each person has there special PoE, which cannot be refill by another Poe but with Tomogara or rinne, it is just PoE.

So what do you think if yujji refill every torch 's PoE at mid-night by his "midnight lost child" then the world balance will be break for sure.Even if yujji have renji maigo, as far as I remember, he could only live as long as an average human - not inmortal like shana but later they said in the anime that yujji can stayed with shana forever so which one is correct ?

There we go, that's probably what I was missing.

"Each human being's PoE is unique." That's the kind of rule that makes sense from a logical standpoint, and still fit in with their literary universe.

According to that, even if a torch could steal energy, he or she needs a specific energy, e.g. the energy that made up whoever they are holding the place of.

-------------------
As to what you asked about; if it's true that their energy is unique, then they can't take energy from Yuuji, because it's not the same.

If that turns out not to be a rule, then I don't see why it would unbalance things. The world had no issue with the original people existing, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be a problem if their placeholders had a life extension.

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

It's like pointing to a monkey and saying you're far more superior. Yes you are, but no one really cares and it isn't significant.

I felt the same way until Alastor said what he did to Yuuji in Episode 3. Now after hearing that it seems more like I'm pointing to a guy with a gun (The Rinne) who is shooting people and asking "Why can't I do that?" Well that's because he's got the gun. So the question becomes, is it impossible for me (The Torch) to get this same kind of gun, and maybe shoot him? If I could do that, and survive, and win even. Then it becomes much more significant.

[Kinny Riddle]

Rinne are made up of "foreign PoE", i.e. PoE that isn't their own. While Torches are just the remnant of a person's PoE. Both would eventually burn out, but the difference is that a Rinne can resupply itself with other people's PoE while a Torch cannot.

The Reiji Maigo is unique is that it is able to refill its daily PoE on its own, or even add to its PoE amount. Something not even a Crimson Lord, let alone a Rinne, can do. This is why the Reiji Maigo is so coveted.

[hayate-sama]

As to what you asked about; if it's true that their energy is unique, then they can't take energy from Yuuji, because it's not the same.

it s a joke. But may be I misunderstand that the world s balance in shana is not the amount of PoE. But if someone die then where is his/her PoE gone ?

After a while, I come up with a idea that flame haze job is keeping those tomogara/ guze stuffs from being known by our world more than keeping the balance of the world

[OuterRem]

Ok so this system makes more sense now. Thanks all for your help.

I guess Rinne are just a mishmash of different PoE from different things, and that's why its so easy for them to fall apart.

So what I wonder is if humans have a set amount of PoE.

The funny thing about this show is that it has a lot of existential philosophical problems but has no grounds to approach them with anything approaching reason.

Originally Posted by hayate-sama

But if someone die then where is his/her PoE gone ?

It should still be around, because we still know about famous people from centuries ago. And some from millenia ago.

Even those people that aren't famous they didn't stop existing after they died, they just stop living. That's a big difference. If my grand parents stopped from having ever existed after they died, I would disappear too, even if I was alive at that time.

That's a conundrum.

[stormy001_M1A2]

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

well to look at it in a different way, using the existence generated by the Reiji Maigo is less destabilizing than consuming the existences of humans.

though of course like all those who come from the crimson realm, the creator did it first and foremost to fulfill their own selfish desires.

[hayate-sama]

I want to ask that if a person power of existence is eaten by a rinne/tomogara, no matter how small the amount is, that person dissapear right ?

And about the question I ask earlier, the PoE of the famous people who have already died, does rinne or tomogara can absorb that PoE or not ?

Flame haze is a person who have a huge amount of PoE right but that amount have a limit so if they use their power so much, will they disappear ? exspecialy Shana, who have summon alastor once ?

[lua thien]

Out of curiosity, since Pheles created the Reiji Maigo, is it possible that she can create another one?

[tabun]

Originally Posted by hayate-sama

And about the question I ask earlier, the PoE of the famous people who have already died, does rinne or tomogara can absorb that PoE or not ?

I would like to think that the tomogara or rinne can only absorb PoE as long as it is bound to a human being, and that after a person dies, their PoE slowly dissipates over time (i.e. people slowly forgetting the dead, dying themselves etc.), thus keeping the balance.
If, say, a tomogara was able to absorb PoE unbound to a human being, why would they bother to go out and hunt down humans, let alone create rinne to do the job for them? They could just sit back and tap on the PoE of dead people floating through the skies (and yes, that is poor visualisation on my part).

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by lua thien

Out of curiosity, since Pheles created the Reiji Maigo, is it possible that she can create another one?

while possible, that's highly unlikely.

Though Hougu are containers for PoE, which usually means a Crimson denizen/Lord is required to create them, Hougu gain their peculiar abilities from the wishes/true desires of the humans used to make them: the more ridiculous the desire, the more powerful the Hougu can potentially be. To use Tenmoku Ikko as an example, he wanted more than anything to create a weapon to defeat Crimson Denizens. And so Nietono no Shana becomes a sword that ignores their most powerful abilities. (unrestricted methods) Similarly, The Reiji Maigo required a very particular and extreme wish from a human to have the abilities it has.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

As cliched as it may sound, never underestimate the power of love.

She simply wanted her human lover Johann to live in eternity with her, as well as not needing to hunt on humans anymore. (I want to believe that Johann more or less influenced her to have pity on humans, but I haven't read to that part yet. )

Originally Posted by hayate-sama

I want to ask that if a person power of existence is eaten by a rinne/tomogara, no matter how small the amount is, that person dissapear right ?

And about the question I ask earlier, the PoE of the famous people who have already died, does rinne or tomogara can absorb that PoE or not ?

I should think that when a person dies, his PoE becomes scattered as it's so small, but never disappears. It's too time consuming for a Denizen to go around collecting scattered PoE when they can obtain it much quickly and effectively from a living person. Even collecting PoE from Torches, Rami's way of acquiring PoE over the centuries, is more efficient.

Flame haze is a person who have a huge amount of PoE right but that amount have a limit so if they use their power so much, will they disappear ? exspecialy Shana, who have summon alastor once ?

Unlike Denizens and Torches, a human being's PoE doesn't run out, while it may decrease as they get older and their bonds to society gets weaker and weaker, but it never goes to zero.

A Flame Haze is a person with a very high PoE value. A Crimson Lord would of course want to form a contract with him when his PoE value is at its potential maximum. Once the contract is made, the PoE value stays that way, as they're made immortal and detached from the human world.

For your second question, I'll be using the movie/novel to explain, as that's the original:

The function of Friagne's Trigger Happy gun is to "smash the container" carrying the Crimson Lord, forcefully depriving the Lord of his PoE. As the PoE needed to contain him is gone, the Lord would have two choices: 1. acquire nearby PoE for him to manifest physically, which could cause great damage; or 2. return to the Crimson World to reduce damage.

Shana doesn't disappear after getting shot because, as explained, she's still got "plenty of room" remaining even after Alastor got summoned to our physical world. Something Friagne never expected.

Originally Posted by lua thien

Out of curiosity, since Pheles created the Reiji Maigo, is it possible that she can create another one?

If she could, then all the Denizens would be queuing up to get her to make one for them already, instead of having to go around devouring so many humans, which is so much harder as they risk getting hunted down by Flame Hazes.

[Neki Ecko]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

So in all means, Reiji Maigo is single most destabilizing artifact that can shatter the delicate balance as depicted in the story? Am I getting this part right? What was Lord Pheles thinking when she creating this? Sure this person knew how dangerous this item is in terms of balance of existence.

Kinny Riddle hit this on the head, It is a power of Love that made her do that. In a way you can see that Shana is following the same path that Pheles did a long time ago but only a couple of differences, Pheles only thought of humans as nothing but POE to feed on as Shana only thought of human as nothing but touches but then they met two human guys that made them change so much, from the way they were to what they are now. In a way, the reason why that Reiji Maigo was made, so Pheles wouldnt never take anybody else POE and spend the rest of her life with the one that changed her and love her for who she is.

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But how could Baby Shana acquire so much PoE?

i know this came up a really long time ago... but i was browsing thru this thread and i thought of a possibility

is it possible that Shana gained the existance from Alastor's previous flame haze, since shana herself if she was an orphan, technically could possibly have no existance at all if her parents were eaten or something.

If u think about it this way, Baby shana could have been like an empty like hecate sorta... and alastor maybe might have passed on some of his previous contract's existance to fill her empty existance?

that could explain her HUGE existance because i mean... almost everyone knows the Flame of Heaven and his previous Flame Haze... maybe even more after she summoned Alastor and died. Since existance is not limited by life.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by lazyasian224

i know this came up a really long time ago... but i was browsing thru this thread and i thought of a possibility

is it possible that Shana gained the existance from Alastor's previous flame haze, since shana herself if she was an orphan, technically could possibly have no existance at all if her parents were eaten or something.

If u think about it this way, Baby shana could have been like an empty like hecate sorta... and alastor maybe might have passed on some of his previous contract's existance to fill her empty existance?

that could explain her HUGE existance because i mean... almost everyone knows the Flame of Heaven and his previous Flame Haze... maybe even more after she summoned Alastor and died. Since existance is not limited by life.

I don't think that's possible, as Flame Hazes used to be humans themselves.

As I mentioned earlier, while a Denizen or Rinne can replenish itself or even increase its PoE amount by absorbing the PoE of others (the difference from that and the Reiji Maigo is that the Reiji Maigo replenish and increases PoE on its own), humans cannot. Humans can only "stretch" their existence via their social networking.



Think of humans as "clay potteries" of various sizes while Denizens are like "water", since "water" cannot take form without a container.

Denizens/Lords who steal others PoE are forcefully taking form unnaturally without using a pot. But as they have no container to hold their "water", it would eventually leak if they don't replenish it constantly. Lords who form contracts with Flame Hazes use the more natural way, in that they seek a "pot" to contain themselves.

A great Crimson Lord would require a very large "pot" to contain the large amount of "water" that comes with him. Once a pot is made (forming the contract), you can't just ask the pot to grow bigger anymore, so the Lord would need to choose carefully.