Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[aeriolewinters]

Kira in GSD shows less emotion, but it showed how much he has grown as a pilot learning that when he is agitated, he more likely to make mistakes looking back at EP39 where he took a real beating. However he did show a sense of urgency when flying into space to save her. Which shows how much she means to him by GSD not to mention the loving embrace....

Um, Kira in his prime... wouldn't get humiliated in Strike Rouge like that. But nonetheless, I'm open to this, Kusa-san's explanation is so underhanded because it spits at all three of 'em.

And then again, I'm leaning towards monster's explanation, that Kira is still not over Fllay's death, and in turn has affected him.

We see this urge to save from Kira, in ep13 of Destiny, and it's a shame that they didn't expand on this, it would've explained every action of Kira in Destiny: Kira now has a Savior Complex. He's fixated to save everyone, because of failure to save the people who meant something to him.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Um, Kira in his prime... wouldn't get humiliated in Strike Rouge like that. But nonetheless, I'm open to this, Kusa-san's explanation is so underhanded because it spits at all three of 'em.

wouldn't really say Kira wasnt in his prime, seeing how he kept kicking even more ass in the Strike Freedom moments after, let's remember that Kira was fighting in a very outdated machine, and the only reason for him to launch in the Strike (with massive never-mentioned before boosters) was so he could get the Strike Freedom either way, Kira lost to the Plot, not his own skills i'd say

And then again, I'm leaning towards monster's explanation, that Kira is still not over Fllay's death, and in turn has affected him.

We see this urge to save from Kira, in ep13 of Destiny, and it's a shame that they didn't expand on this, it would've explained every action of Kira in Destiny: Kira now has a Savior Complex. He's fixated to save everyone, because of failure to save the people who meant something to him.

Fllay's death wasnt mentioned in Destiny at all, wouldnt say it affected him that much, if anything in Destiny Kira accepted the fact that he needed to fight in a mobile suit to protect the people he cared for, Hence the " give me the keys " speech and him convincing Lacus to do so.

[monster]

Just to be clear, when I said Flay still affected Kira, I meant only in terms of how fast he's now willing to move the relationship with Lacus.

But as I said before, I don't think they had any plans for any subplot for Kira. So most of the interactions Kira has with Lacus in Destiny only serve to at least show that he does care for, if not love her. And you could also say Kira's failure at protecting Flay also plays some part in wanting to protect Lacus.

But I don't think Flay's influence on Kira is meant to be something pronounced, rather, it's something subtle and just in the background.

[Washu-Chan]

If I were to fix up the Kira/Lacus relationship, I would view Lacus as a surrogate mother for Kira. It's known that he never met his real mother (Via) while growing, but I'm not sure how close he was to his adoptive mother, since it's been a while that I watched Seed.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

No I will say it again and again, until there is an official chart which siad the contrary : Kira love none of them in GS. And you can esasly explain that because the war broke him : Therefore he was unable to love. The fact that he want to save Flay so badly is easly explainable :

- Toll died before that and he thought it was his fault
- He made a promise to her : To protect her

There is no love in that, just a young boy who who was destroyed by the war mentally.

So, it's explainable and official.

See: Heero and Relena, as well as Loran and Dianna.

[Faerie]

HNNNG it took me 500 years to read through all this xD Couple of points I picked up along the way:

- I can't really explain the KiraxFllay dynamic any better than wingdarkness and aeriolewinters did here
and here
- Fllay being killed was an easy way out. It would've been much more effort (and possibly beyond Morosawas capabilities as a writer) to develop a plausible KiraxLacus if Fllay were alive. She even largely failed to do so despite that anyway.
As for the dead Fllay and KiraxLacus scenario, while I admit that there are very minor attempts to hint at something like this, there are ways to make this work. I allude to Final Fantasy 7 and how CloudxTifa never worked out and if it ever will would take years to happen.

- Lacus being a blatant Mary Sue for everyone to freely paste their faces onto, a Bella-style blank sheet is why her relationships don't appeal and wouldn't work long term- unless you're a fangirl and like to think so because you've long since pasted your own face onto her. The question isn't if Kira and Lacus are a couple, but how they are such an awful one.
Tbh, during Destiny, I did wonder if Kira and Lacus ruined each other into being the blank sheets they were in GSD.

I also find that Morosawa intended KiraxLacus to be this epic couple- this is obvious from the OP shoving it in our faces since episode 1, but their lives together range from occasional comfort-seeking to shopping scenes- this isn't some sappy teen soap, and even these would be ashamed to call this epic.
If anything, shouldn't KiraxLacus have started as another one-sided relationship of necessity and grown into something real from there?
LacusxKira totally COULD'VE been epic and I wanted them to but I was sorely disappointed with how they turned out.

Oh, and apparently an "ideal relationship" or "old marriage" is quietly co-existing? Isn't that just what ordinary people want you to think is the desirable endgame? Isn't that the reason why old men end up cheating or using prostitutes?
Wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Apparently the happiest and most fulfilling marriages are those that keep the passion alive until ripe old age. Just saying.

Unrelated: Washu-Chan I kept meaning to ask where the quote in your sig is from and if there's more? I really want to read this xD

Also, it's 4am here. I'm sorry for anything that's incoherent x_x

[monster]

Whether Lacus and Kira's relationship would appeal to everybody is never a question. Of course, some people wouldn't like it and some people would. But to say that their relationship won't work because they don't have the "dynamic" of some other couple is just ridiculous. If we can establish that they do care for each other, then it's extremely plausible for their relationship to work.

[aeriolewinters]

If we can establish that they do care for each other, then it's extremely plausible for their relationship to work.

Except this is not real life, this is fiction. And for fiction to work, you'd have to develop it properly.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Except this is not real life, this is fiction. And for fiction to work, you'd have to develop it properly.

That's only true if their relaionship is the end goal of the story, but it's not in Destiny. Don't think of Lacus and Kira's relationship in Destiny as the same as Kira and Flay's in SEED. Think of them more like Andrew and Aisha's relationship in SEED. You accept that they are a couple and move on because the story is not about their relationship.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Um, Kira in his prime... wouldn't get humiliated in Strike Rouge like that.

What ? This is the first time I see/heard this particular complain.

You do know that Gouf Ignited (which kira fought with Strike Rouge) is already way better than the old Strike model, right? Cagalli was able to survive that far with Rouge simply coz she was protected by Freedom & Murasame squadron (if not, she’ll be killed 100 times already). So, I don’t think Kira humiliated himself there. Not to mention that there’s a whole platoon of those Goufs. He lost the fight due to simple logic: One outdated suit can't win against a group of more advanced suits. The first time I see Kira fought those Goufs with Strike, I knew he’d be owned. I mean, do you seriously hope Kira to win that particular battle?

[aeriolewinters]

One outdated suit can't win against a group of more advanced suits.

Setsuna and his flag Facepalms at this

[monster]

Kira performed well with the Strike Rouge until he had to protect the Eternal against a Gunner Zaku Warrior's beam cannon. The Strike's shield simply couldn't withstand the shot, there's nothing Kira could do about that.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Setsuna and his flag Facepalms at this

Setsuna and his Flag? You do know that Flag is not an outdated suit when the Gundams first appear don’t you? Also, one Flag still can’t stand against a group of Gundams which still prove my point (imagine the slaughter). I mean, even 0 Gundam is lost to a single Exia in 00 second season.

[Washu-Chan]

Shouldn't we also blame the Kira/Lacus shippers?

At the time, and to this day, the Kira/Lacus pairing are still crazy over with the Japanese audience, as was Athrun/Cagalli, whose status is unclear because they initially broke up, but as of SE4, Athrun is wearing an Orb Admiral uniform, implying that he is now serving under Cagalli.

Also, Fukuda released an official AMV dedicated to Athrun and Cagalli, although it's technically non-canon.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Unrelated: Washu-Chan I kept meaning to ask where the quote in your sig is from and if there's more? I really want to read this xD

I just made it up, based on Kira's "Cagalli is crying" speech he made to Athrun before the latter got Savioured.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Setsuna and his Flag? You do know that Flag is not an outdated suit when the Gundams first appear don’t you? Also, one Flag still can’t stand against a group of Gundams which still prove my point (imagine the slaughter). I mean, even 0 Gundam is lost to a single Exia in 00 second season.

The Flag was extremely outgunned when a single third-generation Gundam appeared, and by the time the event Aeriole mentioned occurs, it is outdated by even more years than the age difference between the Strike Rouge and the ZAKU and GOUF. And still manages to be capable of destroying machines that far outstrip it.

So no. The age difference between mobile suits isn't really gonna cut it for that. Circumstances do, but age difference is not among those.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

What ? This is the first time I see/heard this particular complain.

You do know that Gouf Ignited (which kira fought with Strike Rouge) is already way better than the old Strike model, right? Cagalli was able to survive that far with Rouge simply coz she was protected by Freedom & Murasame squadron (if not, she’ll be killed 100 times already). So, I don’t think Kira humiliated himself there. Not to mention that there’s a whole platoon of those Goufs. He lost the fight due to simple logic: One outdated suit can't win against a group of more advanced suits. The first time I see Kira fought those Goufs with Strike, I knew he’d be owned. I mean, do you seriously hope Kira to win that particular battle?

Have you simply forgotten how awesome Kira was during the desert battle in SEED just using the Strike? How he was so creative using the Strike? The Strike Gundam was useless on the desert - it was the BuCUES turf. Kira, being the genius programmer that he is, just adjusted the Strike's OS on the fly so that it could be able to fight against them fair and square. Kira even used the Strike Gundam underwater just to get at the ZAFT MS attacking the Archangel from underwater before they arrived at Orb (after the desert arc). You HAVE to consider the fact that the Strike has no underwater capabilities as a suit - Kira was just really pushing it to its limits, and he wasn't really scared to push this suit to its limits even if he had these ZAFT MS surrounding them.

Give and take a few years, the Strike WAS outdated, but it didn't necessarily mean that the suit was useless against them. Strike WAS his suit before it was the Strike Rouge. Where has all this creativity gone? Strike proved capable enough to be able to sortie and fight in space, and this was before he was even more familiar with how it's used.

To also get at that outdated suit excuse, remember Athrun held off a Gundam during the Armory One incident with a ZAKU. A FREAKING ZAKU.

Also, just to add to aeriolewinters' post, Graham Aker and Sergei Smirnov also facepalm at this travesty.

[Soaring Griffin]

Kira was doing fine until he tried to block a gunner zaku shot aimed at the eternal.

[monster]

Like I said, there's nothing Kira could do about the fact that the Strike's shield couldn't handle a shot from the Zaku's cannon. Creativity and skill has nothing to do with it. And Kira would've died in the desert if the Strike did not have phase shift armor.

[aeriolewinters]

Kira was doing fine until he tried to block a gunner zaku shot aimed at the eternal.

Could've easily thrown the shield, point is, I've seen Kira do some cool shit with the Strike, and to say that he can't think of something creative to preserve it, is kinda inconsistent with him.

[Rising Dragon]

Saying the short time frame to perform the action won't fly, either--most of his brilliant actions in the Strike were performed with only scant seconds to succeed or fail in.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Also, just to add to aeriolewinters' post, Graham Aker and Sergei Smirnov also facepalm at this travesty.

Guys, my point is: One outdated suit can't win against a group of more advanced suits. Thus, please give an example where a single outdated and outgunned suit is able to defeat a whole group of more advanced suits. I mean, not just survive them or hold them or destroying some of them, but totally win against them. If not, my point still stands.

For example: if the group consist of 8 advanced suits and the single outdated MS only destroyed like 2-3 of them and then perish/run, it still doesn't count.

EDIT:
Oh yeah, when Kira fought those BuCUEs and Goohns and Zno, Strike is not in outdated-by-years status. Heck, Strike is brand new compared to those suits it fought.