Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Not quite. All that is necessary is to logically infer that she was the one behind that particular order. However, both Cornelia's attitude and her subsequent actions suggest that she's not particularly interested in killing the Elevens, and we already know that her subordinates were far from lacking in this respect. Hence, the simpler explanation would be that they acted on their own.

She's not new to conquering countries or leading Britanian armies. Even if her personal troops are more elite and disciplined, she knows how the average Britanian soldier feels about Numbers. And how little incentive there is to treating them like human beings.

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Perhaps, but Suzaku was also fairly delusional in suppressing his memory of the murder, so he still may have been quite sincere. In any case, his suicidal tendency is hardly likely to override his wish to helping the Japanese people.

You can't have it both ways, either he was fighting for repentance or fighting with sincerity.

Actually, it was a combination of two operations: to crush a insurgent force holed up in Saitama, and to trap Clovis' murderer.

Sorry but Cornelia could care less about the small amount of insurgents in a ghetto.

Why does this matter?

It matters because if Lelouch keeps winning battles for them against Britannia, they don't need to know Lelouch's motives. It's the same with alliances you might not agree on some of the same issues but if you are fighting against a common enemy you can put those issues aside.

Much like how the American troops destroyed Fallujah - isn't that what I've been saying all along?

I'm saying its not like Fallujah, the American troops weren't killing people who were surrendering after fighting. With Fallujah the phosphorous did more extensive damage than American troops realized. I know that sounds like American propaganda speaking, but it isn't. It's not the same as a general telling them to go in a kill every single person in a suburb man, woman, or child. As we saw with the destruction of the Shinjuku ghetto thats what that order means.

Not quite, his taking advantage of the situation only further reinforces the impression that he's not a very nice person.

Nobody is saying he is a nice person, he even admits to be a devil. However, the question is if people are willing to support Lelouch as he walks his path of carnage. Some on the forum are, and some aren't.

[mist2123]

Much like how the American troops destroyed Fallujah - isn't that what I've been saying all along?

who cares about fallujah??

does everybody here really know what justice means.(dont put the meaning in the dictionary)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She's not new to conquering countries or leading Britanian armies. Even if her personal troops are more elite and disciplined, she knows how the average Britanian soldier feels about Numbers. And how little incentive there is to treating them like human beings.

That's not necessarily true. Soldiers operating in different theatres can often behave very differently. Case in point: IJA troops in Manchuria, China, and Taiwan all treated their local populations very differently. In the case of Britannia, local commanders have a very strong influence on how their subordinates act, so a comparison to the decentralized nature of the IJA seems appropriate.

Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny

You can't have it both ways, either he was fighting for repentance or fighting with sincerity.

Sure you can - that's what it means to be delusional. I'm not sure what your point here is, since I sure as heck am not interested in defending Suzaku - I've already pointed out that his selfish obsession with revenge is threatening to overwhelm his better senses.

Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny

Sorry but Cornelia could care less about the small amount of insurgents in a ghetto.

Define "small".

Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny

It matters because if Lelouch keeps winning battles for them against Britannia, they don't need to know Lelouch's motives. It's the same with alliances you might not agree on some of the same issues but if you are fighting against a common enemy you can put those issues aside.

Why does this matter? The question at hand has nothing to do with how any character in Code Geass views Lelouch's motives; it's about how we view them, and how they affect his actions.

Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny

I'm saying its not like Fallujah, the American troops weren't killing people who were surrendering after fighting.

The American troops established a cordon around Fallujah in November of 2004 and declared their intention to attack. Most of the population of the city tried to flee in advance, but all military aged men and teenagers were forced to stay inside. After the deadline passed, the Americans proceeded to attack the city using heavy weapons and lots of air support, with the understanding that everyone left within should be considered a potential insurgent. They ended up recapturing the city, leveling much of it in the process. It makes for a very useful comparison and contrast to Shinjuku and Saitama.

Certainly, the Britannians were more ruthless, even eager to gun down civilians, but other than that, it's not really that much different in essence from Fallujah. I'll reiterate that an order to level a city is very different from one ordering the death of every man, woman and child within it.

[Juvyniled]

Just in here for a quick comment:

Lelouch had intended to ruin Euphemia's reputation one way or the other during the Special Administrative Zone commencement. It was only after what she said (I don't know how her comments triggered something in Lelouch's mind, but it did) that forced a change of opinion. Who knows, Lelouch could've played her for a fool even after accepting the proposal... but it was pretty clear what he intended.

He had originally planned for Euphemia to be Geassed to shoot him, therefore causing a ruckus since the Elevens would not tolerate such a betrayal. And even as Lelouch became enraged, he really showed his feelings about what Euphemia had done (loathed it, felt betrayed by her, etc.).

The whole affair was not so much an accident as was the person who suggested the plot head in this direction.

[anti-random]

People, people. Lets just accept the fact that the ends justify the means. I mean in Code Geass. yeah. We know that all of LL's actions have got to their preferred ends. alright, one can argue that Euphemia gping crazy and killing people wasn't exactly what he expected but us Juyniled said, he wasn't exactly going to support Euphie.

Why does everyone question LL's ations. I mean look at Cornelia. She is the 'best' and moralistic and neither is Suzaku. Everybody uses force in the end, mostly voilet hurting force but hey, thats how the world is.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Not quite. All that is necessary is to logically infer that she was the one behind that particular order. However, both Cornelia's attitude and her subsequent actions suggest that she's not particularly interested in killing the Elevens, and we already know that her subordinates were far from lacking in this respect. Hence, the simpler explanation would be that they acted on their own.

Sigh. Cornelia's attitude suggests that she doesn't care for 11s one way or another. It doesn't mean she wouldn't order the entire ghetto to be leveled ; ie. kill everyone, if it suited her tactics to do so. This is the same woman who Lelouch said wouldn't care about the hostages the JLF took if Euphie wasn't with them. Now you can go on assuming whatever you want about how she gave orders to not kill civilians, but the rest of us? We're going with what the show showed us and that was her ordering a reenactment of Shinjuku. There, dead horse flogged.

There's nothing wrong with invoking Godwin's Law if it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

Was it even relevant? How on earth is Lelouch more similar to Hitler than say Joan of Arc, Napoleon, George Washington, etc? Oooh, I bet he rounded up brits into concentration camps. No? Or maybe he will kill and replace all the OotBk with fanatics that are dedicated to serving him and act as his secret service.

[anti-random]

yeah. why not have the SS going around. Any way, I disgaree with your view to Cornelia. True in the start she could give a .... about elevens but as the series progressed her realtionship to Suzaku improved and her attitude to elevens. She knightened Suzaku in the end after all

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

He had originally planned for Euphemia to be Geassed to shoot him, therefore causing a ruckus since the Elevens would not tolerate such a betrayal. And even as Lelouch became enraged, he really showed his feelings about what Euphemia had done (loathed it, felt betrayed by her, etc.).

Yup. And the fact that he eventually let Euphemia convince him to give her plan a chance was his most selfless act in the entire show.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Sigh. Cornelia's attitude suggests that she doesn't care for 11s one way or another. It doesn't mean she wouldn't order the entire ghetto to be leveled

And? That still doesn't mean that she ordered all the people executed.

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Was it even relevant? How on earth is Lelouch more similar to Hitler than say Joan of Arc, Napoleon, George Washington, etc? Oooh, I bet he rounded up brits into concentration camps. No? Or maybe he will kill and replace all the OotBk with fanatics that are dedicated to serving him and act as his secret service.

In that case, point out the weakness in Jagdpanther's comparison. And reserve your Godwin's Law accusations for when your opponent accuses you of being like Hitler.

[anti-random]

don't know 4tran. i mean he was probably was going to use geass on euphie to get her to shoot him in front of the entire crowd

[4Tran]

He fully planned to, but he changed his mind at the last minute. In fact, Lelouch pretty much gave up on most of his plans then and there. He was at enough ease that he was even willing to tell Euphemia about his Geass power - which is exactly where everything went to hell in a handbasket.

[anti-random]

still unconvinced. i don't believe he would tell euphie about geass. he'd want it to be kept a secret

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by anti-random

still unconvinced. i don't believe he would tell euphie about geass. he'd want it to be kept a secret

He did start to tell Euphie about his geass before it went out of control. Watch ep 22.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

In that case, point out the weakness in Jagdpanther's comparison. And reserve your Godwin's Law accusations for when your opponent accuses you of being like Hitler.

Geez, doesn't anyone know what Godwins law actually is? It is not an accusation. It merely states that the further on a discussion goes, the more probable that a reference/comparison to Hitler or the nazis will surface. And guess what? it was correct in this case, unless you're telling me that someone didn't bring in Hitler? If so, it's not an accusation.

As for the weakness in Jagdpanthers comparison, I've already stated it. How on earth is Lulu like Hitler? If you had bothered to read the previous posts, you'd notice was that he compared Hitler to Lulu because both gave hope to people, but unfortunately, the mere fact that you have to choose Hitler out of dozens of potential war personnel who did give hope to people (ie. look at my list previously, I can't be bothered to explain things again) is kinda telling don't you think? It's not a casual reference so much as it is a specific one. So again, why Hitler?

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

So again, why Hitler?

So I have to choose someone else for you to get the point? Meh, well, beggars can't be choosers.

[mangastuff]

@4Tran
Now I know why you hate Lulu that much and why you can't see his belief (agree or not, only recognize is fine, but no, you even can't see it, that's why you said he ONLY fight for himself and his sis). The reason is: You dont give a damn about the RIGHT OF THE WEAK !!

What about the right to decide whether they should fight to protect their freedom or should surrender ?

What about the right to choose their own Gov ? Because they are invaded, the true owner now become terrorists ? The civilians who support the resisters (the vast majority of Japansese) now become law-breakers, aka need-to-die criminals ?

So just because Britainian is stronger, it is not a traitor to kill your leader (let alone your father) who doesnt want to surrender without caring about others ideas ? Just because the country are invaded and is forced to have a new ruler, it is not a traitor to kill your compatriots who want to resist and get back their rightful freedom ?

Just because someone has enough arms to crush the world, they morally become ruler and no one has the right to resist ?

Unkind as I am, I don't give a damn about the law of the jungle, but to see it as moral, you are really as amazing as the Emperor !!!

[anti-random]

i apologise evilplushie. i was wrong indeed about LL not saying anything about geass to Euphie thing. he was indeed telling her about it

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

As for the weakness in Jagdpanthers comparison, I've already stated it. How on earth is Lulu like Hitler?

It seems that you missed JagdPanther's point. He was illustrating that the principle that "someone who gives lots of people hope = automatically a good/moral person" is false.

Originally Posted by mangastuff

<SNIP>

How does any of this relate to what I posted?

[Var]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It seems that you missed JagdPanther's point. He was illustrating that the principle that "someone who gives lots of people hope = automatically a good/moral person" is false.


How does any of this relate to what I posted?

The problem with the comparison comes in the fundamentally different ways and circumstances that Hitler and Lelouch gave people hope.

Hitler gave people hope by shifting the blame, uniting the country, and riding it of its depression in under two years. He united the Germans against the Jews and other non-pure peoples and fed off their rage to build the German war machine.

Lelouch didn't need to put blame on anything. People already hated the Brits and for a justified reason (unlike Hitler's agenda) and he simply used that to bring the people together, and through results of battle, gave them hope.

They are fundamentally different and shouldn't be used in relation. A more accurate analogy would come from, say Washington or other Revolutionary war heroes. Given that the American revolution was started on some pretty bad reasoning.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Var

The problem with the comparison comes in the fundamentally different ways and circumstances that Hitler and Lelouch gave people hope.

Hitler gave people hope by shifting the blame, uniting the country, and riding it of its depression in under two years. He united the Germans against the Jews and other non-pure peoples and fed off their rage to build the German war machine.

To begin with, that really isn't the point - the issue at hand isn't whether the example is exactly the same with respect to the subject. It's about whether there is any example that counters the claimed principle; in this case whether "someone who gives lots of people hope = automatically a good/moral person".

By the way, your objection isn't correct. Hitler did lots of different things to give the German people hope; for example, the reoccupation of the Rhineland and domestic economic reforms. There were good reasons why he got elected to power, after all.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

The problem with the comparison comes in the fundamentally different ways and circumstances that Hitler and Lelouch gave people hope.

Hitler gave people hope by shifting the blame, uniting the country, and riding it of its depression in under two years. He united the Germans against the Jews and other non-pure peoples and fed off their rage to build the German war machine.

Lelouch didn't need to put blame on anything. People already hated the Brits and for a justified reason (unlike Hitler's agenda) and he simply used that to bring the people together, and through results of battle, gave them hope.

Well in that case people already hated the jews long before Hitler even came into power(centuries even). Hitler already had a strong foundation to work with.