Espada and Vizard Discussion

[Genius-kun]

The vizards are like the exact opposite of the espada which means they must be on pretty equal ground. Despite the fact Shinji could easily beat Grimmjow u have to consider that grimmjow is no 6 espada and shinji is probably the strongest vizard

[tensashinigami]

It doesn't matter if Vaizard or Espada is more strong, it comes down to individual who is the most strongest. Shinji is stronger than Grimmjow but he might have problems with Ulquiorra. Depending on the person skills.

[kodok_balls]

nyaahh.. Espada are far cry from being equal with the vizard. We have shown this far how espada are being equal with the captains. and vizards level are above the captains ( it is clearly stated that vizard are higher level of shinigami ) and all of them are former captain in their normal state.. so it will conclude automatically...
I have a feeling that vizard maybe took part during battle with aizen... or perhaps the later arc.
I have an impression so far and a prediction that the strongest char so far are ( the highest level )
1st class: keisuke urehara, Aizen, Shinji hirako ( leader of vizard and ex aizen's captain are surely no joke ), yorouchi, yamamoto ( captains commander )
2nd class : other vizard and captain, some espada

I'm not surprised if urehara is a vizard as well , considering he was the one who create the hyougoku.
well, just an oppinion though

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by kodok_balls

nyaahh.. Espada are far cry from being equal with the vizard. We have shown this far how espada are being equal with the captains. and vizards level are above the captains ( it is clearly stated that vizard are higher level of shinigami ) and all of them are former captain in their normal state.. so it will conclude automatically...
I have a feeling that vizard maybe took part during battle with aizen... or perhaps the later arc.
I have an impression so far and a prediction that the strongest char so far are ( the highest level )
1st class: keisuke urehara, Aizen, Shinji hirako ( leader of vizard and ex aizen's captain are surely no joke ), yorouchi, yamamoto ( captains commander )
2nd class : other vizard and captain, some espada

I'm not surprised if urehara is a vizard as well , considering he was the one who create the hyougoku.
well, just an oppinion though

Spoiler for The Pendulum Arc.:

The Hougyoku did not turn them into Vizards. Aizen did. Urahara just created the Hougyoku to save them (Viz) from turning into Hollows.

So far we have only seen Arrancar made with Hougyoku.
From what I understand you use forbidden spells to make Vizards
..in essence the hougyoku is a stabilizer. It 's the perfect method to blend those powers once you get them.

[kodok_balls]

Originally Posted by hakisak

Spoiler for The Pendulum Arc.:

The Hougyoku did not turn them into Vizards. Aizen did. Urahara just created the Hougyoku to save them (Viz) from turning into Hollows.

So far we have only seen Arrancar made with Hougyoku.
From what I understand you use forbidden spells to make Vizards
..in essence the hougyoku is a stabilizer. It 's the perfect method to blend those powers once you get them.

Okay, so if hyougoku is not turning them into hollow i believe in some way urehara had reached that level as well. perhaps in some sort of the same methods or who knows...
btw thanks for your explanation

[BeCool09]

Originally Posted by hakisak

Spoiler for The Pendulum Arc.:

The Hougyoku did not turn them into Vizards. Aizen did. Urahara just created the Hougyoku to save them (Viz) from turning into Hollows.

So far we have only seen Arrancar made with Hougyoku.
From what I understand you use forbidden spells to make Vizards
..in essence the hougyoku is a stabilizer. It 's the perfect method to blend those powers once you get them.

I don't think that Aizen turned them into Vizards really. He turned them into pure hollows I believe. It was the Hougyoku, I believe, that helped them maintain their shinigami powers.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by BeCool09

I don't think that Aizen turned them into Vizards really. He turned them into pure hollows I believe. It was the Hougyoku, I believe, that helped them maintain their shinigami powers.

Au Contrair Mufrare (I made that up)

Spoiler for The Pendulum Arc--Kensei:

They weren't "true" hollows. Just like Ichigo's transformation...

Kensei's mask had formed before the body. When you truly become a hollow. the body is born first then the mask. Such was not the case with Vizards. Aizen made them not Urahara.

[Kitsueki]

Wow, I see alot of error relaying towards information and speculation.

Spoiler for info:

There are 8 vaizard grouped together.

Shinji
Kensei
Love
Rose
^ Ex Captains

Hiyori
Lisa
Mashiro
Hachi
^Previous Lieutenants

It can be safe to say that the previous captains have their bankai abilities, as captains are required for it to be so. Hacchi a lieutenant was of the Kidou Corps. His captain was Tessai, the seemingly janitor guy to Urahara's shop.

Now about the Espada vs Vaizard debate,
its not able to provide accurate information for a conclusion, you're better off waiting until all the espada have released, by then the Vaizard will definitely appear and reveal things.

The real question is, the Vaizard vs Arrancar. The Espada is a group of the strongest arrancar, whereas vaizard are very limited due to their small numbers.

Other than the espada we've not seen much capable of standing up to a captain level fighter so far. A very select few to say the most.

The Vaizard were deceived into becoming what they are for Aizen's experiment. If you check back when Aizen appeared on Soukyouku Hill and gave his going away speech, he talked about the walls stopping shinigami from advancing, and about how he was at his limit. He tested this in the pendulum arc, as Shinji's vice captain.

All the vaizard's hollow came out and began to attack, but thanks to Urahara and Tessai's swift actions they were saved, and contained by Urahara's Hougyouku.

The central 46 decided that they were to be exterminated, and blamed Urahara for the events, but Yoruichi quickly saved them and took them to the room Ichigo trained in for bankai. That room hides spiritual pressure, thus why they remained unfound.
Through Urahara's genious actions they escaped Soul Society and took refuge in the living World.

Yoruichi, Urahara and Tessai made a shop, and the remaining 8 Vaizard went into hiding and pretended to be normal humans, using Urahara's gigai's to go out and about when needed.


Thats all shown in the pendulum arc, im just correcting the information.


Now to the Shinigami's hypocrisy.

The shinigami's goal isnt to just protect humans, its to keep the balance of souls in order, otherwise everything would plunge into chaos.

Hollow attack the weak that cannot defend themselves, and the shinigami cleanse the hollows souls (not kill), thus keeping order in the balance of souls in soul society.

Shinigami dont pick and chose,they are souls under divine judgment as well. The King of Spirits created the whole thing, I presume he or she is the equivalent to god. So Shinigami supposedly act as the angels, and take care of the order in the soul society (afterlife). Its only hypocrisy when not understood, its the same balance as life now, only here there are no hollow, and angels aren't shinigami.


Any more questions and i'll be glad to explain~

[Kafriel]

About the matter concerning their numbers: it's very usual for the villains to be mass-produced so that the heroes ca show off the results of their training, and I still think that all of the Vizard are at least as strong as Ulquiorra.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by kodok_balls

nyaahh.. Espada are far cry from being equal with the vizard. We have shown this far how espada are being equal with the captains. and vizards level are above the captains ( it is clearly stated that vizard are higher level of shinigami ) and all of them are former captain in their normal state.. so it will conclude automatically...

Not necessarily...
You forget to take into account the different levels of hollow... namely the difference between a Vasto Lorde, and Adjucas

It is very possible that all of the espada defeated up till now were adjucas level hollow... and it could be presumed that Adjucas are the vice captains amognst hollows, where as the vasto Lorde are the captains. in other words, by becoming Arrancar, the adjucas, who were normally VC level, have gained enough power to equal the captains in strength... However if a vasto Lorde were to become an arrancar then that would put them well above the level of the average captain; which is where the captains class vizards stand... and as such, arrancar=vizard

[kodok_balls]

yup.. sorry to mention all of vizard are captain... miss that one.. I mean most of them...
And for the Vizard's power.. I still believe in "save the best for last" ... We almost seen all of espada's fight. except barragan. While Ichigo is equal with no.4 we can make a speculation that ichigo perhaps the no.7 among the vizard ( if there are 9 ). so.. just do the calculation....
most powerful vizard perhaps No. -3 in Espada..haha.. I believe that Shinji is even stronger than aizen...

[Mashda2k6]

Vaizards should be super strong. Think about it, most of them captain-level 100 years ago, after that ~100 years of training with the mask upgrade, the once-captain-level Vaizard should be mega strong now. The once-vice-cpn-level Vaizard should be past the captain level as well.

I also definetly think they are stronger than the Espada, seeing as Ichigo did have problems with Grimmjow in Hueco Mundo when he was able to fully control the mask & bankai mode, and at the same time Hirako didn't release the mask, or bankai or shikai and pwned Grimmjow(I know, Grimmjow wasn't released his zanpaktou either, like he had in the Ichigo battle) but still.

I think bankai mode + masked EX-Captain Vaizard should be at Gin or Tousen's power level.

do you guys agree/disagree with me?

[gobbie]

will vaizards come out and fight along with the rest??

As far as the anime is concern it stops at the part where hirako says "Lets roll"

As far as manga is concern after that there is no appearance of the vaizards anywhere.

I do hope they come out and fight aizen for turning them to what they are now..

[Freya]

Originally Posted by gobbie

will vaizards come out and fight along with the rest??

As far as the anime is concern it stops at the part where hirako says "Lets roll"

As far as manga is concern after that there is no appearance of the vaizards anywhere.

I do hope they come out and fight aizen for turning them to what they are now..

Probably. Gonna get some surprises from the captains from back then.

[Alchemist007]

I wonder how the battle will be though, I find it weird if none of the vice-caps or caps die, they do outnumber them but most of them are not that strong.

[Agallion]

its my opinion that aizen has a backup team of VL ready to go, they will start to dominate the captians..then squad 0 makes an appearance.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Agallion

its my opinion that aizen has a backup team of VL ready to go, they will start to dominate the captians..then squad 0 makes an appearance.

rofl. I HIGHLY doubt that. Why waste his time with them lowly Espadas then? Plus Zero Squad is to protect the king and etc.

[Kuroda]

Originally Posted by Freya

rofl. I HIGHLY doubt that. Why waste his time with them lowly Espadas then? Plus Zero Squad is to protect the king and etc.

If the battle is truly taken to SS then Zero squad will have no choice but to appear. I have a feeling we'll see Ishida's and Ichigo's fathers before we see Zero squad though.

[FanFan]

Aizen, Tosen and Gin are probably the strongest and I have a feeling they will wipe the floor with 2 or 3 captains at once. Why do I say this??

Simply this: The Menos saved them at the end of the SS arc. They only do that for their own. Which implies that they have breached the hollow form. Considering Aizen's proficiency at mastering the different techniques it would be safe to say that he has the mask and probably beyond that.

Now do the Vizard have the power to defeat that? Maybe Shinji or Love but I think that is it and I think they will have trouble with just Gin and Tosen. That being said the Vizard are most likely more powerful than the rest of the Espada.

I think Isshin and Ruyken will jump in on the action some too, probably just to hold up Aizen until Ichigo gets there.

[Ichimaru]

wow ppl are overrating the vizards....

when those guys were still captains/vc or seated...they didnt do crap against aizen when they became hallofication.

during the 100yrs that has pass after hallowfication, they could just go into SS and get aizen, but no...so why wait after 100yrs? even after 100yrs they havnt shown me anything that makes them superior to aizen.