Retiring or AWOL from fansubbing

[Tiamat's Disciple]

Originally Posted by IRJustman

Here's my take on this: If they want their subs that quickly, let them do it on their own. Or join a group. Maybe they'll get a taste of what we subbers have to go through every time an ep gets released. Maybe they'll appreciate what we do all the more having walked a mile in our shoes.

--Ian "IJ" Justman, editor and sound, Oyasumi.

hehe i doubt most of them would last 5mins :P

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

True, its always good to challange yourself, but when that challange becomes a burden, as it is for a lot of groups, thewn something is seriously wrong.

Well, I really don't want to belabour the point, but I have serious doubts that "lowering the standard" (or going back to basics, as it were) will all of sudden make things fun again. Leechers will be leechers; no matter how much you give, they will always demand more. And, for better or worse, technology is advancing - we're now seeing more and more HD anime, offering an unprecidented level of detail and clarity. Sooner or later, just like VHS and the LaserDisc before it, the current DVD-like standard will look dated (some would say that it already does). This pattern of change isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I guess what I'm saying is that you're attacking the tools/technology (h.264/fancy karaoke/whatever), when the actual problem is more personal: one of motivation and interest. It's related more to the question of why you're involved with fansubbing, and what it is about it you enjoy. When the challenges no longer seem interesting or worth it, the choice is to either stick to the aspects you do enjoy for as long as you still enjoy them, or seek entirely new challenges that you find more interesting/exciting. This way of adapting to change is simply a part of life. The reaction of "let's go back to the glory days, back in a simpler time" is, ultimately, never really going to work on a grand scale in a world that's always moving forward (and at an ever-increasing rate).

If having fun/enjoying what you're doing is one of the goals of fansubbing, then it'd only make sense to retire when it's no longer fun; it's not as if you're getting paid... But, if one of your goals is to reach and please the widest audience possible, then you can't very well expect the whole world to put itself on hold and cling to your ideals. I would suggest that the problem with fansubbing today isn't H.264, or fancy karaoke, or anything like that. If anything, I think it's simply that, for many, the challenges naturally get less fun/interesting over time, years of pressure and thoughtless comments from leechers take their toll, and it all starts to seem more like a burden than a joy. You can't really blame the tools/technology, though, because, for the most part, it's going to keep advancing whether you're ready for it or not. Really, the challenge of keeping fansubbing fun and interesting in an ever-changing world is ours to either take or leave, but I don't think that turning back the clock will fix the problem.

[Alizar]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

A lot of the latest stuff is just a pain, h.264 included. Sure its a sweet encode, if your computer can run it that is. When i run it i usually watch my processor useage go from 10-15% with normal encodes upto 100% and stays there. It gets laggy, audio and video go out of synch and it just sucks.

I now work as an encoder for 2 groups, and i refuse to use h.264 because i dont think its a viable encode just yet. To many people have problems viewing it. And while you may feel that others watching it are just a 'side effect', for me, i like to know that my work is being watched and enjoyed by as many people as possible, not just those with a high spec computer.

I don't want to turn this into another xvid vs. h.264 debate. But for me, using h.264 and seeing just how far I can push the envelope with it is half the fun of encoding. And even more fun when I can keep the h.264 encodes that I do to a sane rate of CPU usage relative to the codec. But I still enjoy doing high quality xvid releases so that everyone can play. So, please don't think everyone using h.264 is doing it as part of some sort of one-upmanship. For me, it's just a new (but very exciting) new tool I can use to do cool things with.

But to speak to the main point...

I can really only mirror your and relentlessflame's points. Ideally, fansubbing is all about the subbers doing something fun and challenging as a group. Leechers simply get a sweet benefit from it, and we (ideally) get the joy of sharing our hard work.

[LytHka]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

The reaction of "let's go back to the glory days, back in a simpler time" is, ultimately, never really going to work on a grand scale in a world that's always moving forward (and at an ever-increasing rate).

Going back to the old days only happens when you see that new things aren't working out for the best. Deciding factors vary, of course. To give an example from fansubbing: The Triad, who have people on the scene for the longest time, recently said "fuck you" to the leecher and stopped doing karaoke. The same people were the ones starting to implement the karaoke standard. You try out something and when you see that it's not working out for you, you revert back to "the old." So, don't you think that any kind of thing can gain its momentum and people who push it forward?

[Tiamat's Disciple]

Just because its new, dosent mean its better, or really a step forward. As the old saying goes 'some times you need to step back, before you can step forward'.

Also remember that going 'back to the roots' is alkso an excellent way to reafirm your knowledge of a given subject, any subject.

The majority of subbers i think do this for both the reasons given, yes it challanges them, but they also, as anime fans, want to bring the show to as many people as possible.

As for attacking new technology, yes i am. Simply because its new dosent mean we're ready to use it. Technology like h.264 is good technology, if you can run it. At the moment though the average computer will struggle to play it properly. I run a 2600+ comp at home and a 2800+ in the office, neither can play h.264 without processor useage running 100%. Personally i think anything that pushes to far to fast is bad, better to slow down and move at a steady pace rather than rush in as fast as you can and leave people behind.

I also think that when you need to instal a ton of codecs to play things, is again wrong.

but meh, thats just my view :P and i dont really care if people agree with it or not

From what ive seen so far a lot of groups that adopeted the h.264 relised that alot of people either couldnt play them, ir struggled to play them, so they started releasing dual encodes, one standard xvid/divx and one h.264.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

As for attacking new technology, yes i am. Simply because its new dosent mean we're ready to use it. Technology like h.264 is good technology, if you can run it. At the moment though the average computer will struggle to play it properly. I run a 2600+ comp at home and a 2800+ in the office, neither can play h.264 without processor useage running 100%. Personally i think anything that pushes to far to fast is bad, better to slow down and move at a steady pace rather than rush in as fast as you can and leave people behind.

That's not the fault of h.264, or even of the encoding/decoding software. I know for a fact that all of my h.264 encodes will play on my Celeron 1.2 Ghz . and barely take 30% CPU on my measely Athlon 2.1 Ghz computer. All thse "impossible to play" h.264 encodes are done by people who are trying to use it to either 1. make flawless dvd-rips. or 2. release high-res versions of shows at a sane filesize.
But h.264 can be used an played back using only a little bit more processor power than xvid, if it's at the same resolution. And ffdshow plays it back fine, so it's not even another codec to install anymore (just an upgrade, perhaps ).
Go ahead and attack the encoders for releasing impossible to play files, that's fine. But don't attack the standard or the software, which, when used properly, are not the problem. I bet you you could play back any of my group's h.264 releases fine on your computer.

[CelesAurivern]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

But h.264 can be used an played back using only a little bit more processor power than xvid, if it's at the same resolution.

Hello?
Some of us like to run processor heavy stuff like encoding and watch anime at the same time, yunno?

[TheFluff]

Uh... some people actually thinks it's FUN to create releases that can compete with commercial ones (and don't come dragging with that "zomg anything commercial autowins against anything fanmade" argument kthx).

Your H264 hate is either trolling or incompetence. Any Athlon 2600+ can play any non-interlaced NTSC-resolution (704x480 or lower) h264 encode. Yes, even the ones with 16 reference frames, 3-4 b-frames and loopfilter (*coughkaacough*). I've done it on my 2400+ XP (Thoroughbred) back when I still used it without any trouble at all, and I can play the same encodes on my 1.4 GHz Celeron laptop at about 60-80% CPU usage. All using ffdshow, BTW, not coreavc.

As for the entire "fansubbing should look for its roots" argument, I've already written longish rants about it in the similiar "why retire from fansubbing" thread.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...9&postcount=24
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...7&postcount=33
You have so far said nothing that wasn't already mentioned in that thread, except your h264 trolling.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by LytHka

Going back to the old days only happens when you see that new things aren't working out for the best. Deciding factors vary, of course. To give an example from fansubbing: The Triad, who have people on the scene for the longest time, recently said "fuck you" to the leecher and stopped doing karaoke. The same people were the ones starting to implement the karaoke standard. You try out something and when you see that it's not working out for you, you revert back to "the old." So, don't you think that any kind of thing can gain its momentum and people who push it forward?

This is why I said it'll never work on a grand scale. Absolutely -- one group can step back and say "we don't think we'll do this part anymore". And, you're right: maybe that can catch on with other groups, even. But it's not like the karaoke itself is the problem, it's that the people involved don't like doing it, or the time involved in it; they don't see the value in it. This is why I said that "the choice is to either stick to the aspects you do enjoy for as long as you still enjoy them, or seek entirely new challenges that you find more interesting/exciting." So, good for Triad for deciding to focus on the parts they like and ignoring the parts they don't -- ultimately, in that scenario, everyone wins (except those leechers who really really love karaoke effects, but as they said, stuff 'em -- they can make their own fansubs). But, of course, there'll always be more advancements. The world will keep changing and, on that "grand scale", you can't expect "the scene" to reject all those advancements. I guess what I'm saying is, absolutely, you can roll back one aspect of change you feel was foolish or is unenjoyable, and maybe that'll even catch on with others of like-mind, but believing that "the problem with fansubbing today is that it's not like the way it was x years ago" doesn't ultimately reflect the fact that time, technology, and expectations will keep marching on, with or without you. It's up to you how you respond to that.

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

JThe majority of subbers I think do this for both the reasons given, yes it challanges them, but they also, as anime fans, want to bring the show to as many people as possible.

I'd certainly be interested to see the results of a survey...

I also think that when you need to instal a ton of codecs to play things, is again wrong.

"A ton"? You mean ffdshow, and Haali's splitter? You can play a whole lot of h.264 encodes with just that. You're going to need to install a player no matter what codec is used, so that's exempt. If the file is softsubbed, you will need VSFilter, and if it has Vorbis audio, you'll need CoreVorbis. That's everything. A complete fansub playback solution for the overwhelming majority of encodes out there. That's not a ton. If you wish, you can even cut it down to just a single item. I don't use CCCP myself, but it provides all of the above, I believe.

but meh, thats just my view :P and i dont really care if people agree with it or not

If this were true, then you would not be posting, yes?

[RaistlinMajere]

What the hell are you guys bringing H.264 into this thread for? Do you newbs need to whine about it in every damn thread on this forum?

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Just because its new, dosent mean its better, or really a step forward. As the old saying goes 'some times you need to step back, before you can step forward'.

It doesn't have to be better, it just has to be more fun for the encoder. Remember that these people aren't creating fansubs to be the best. They are just trying to have fun.

NOW! I would like to point out that this thread isn't about the pros and cons of h264. It is about retiring from fansubs. Please get back onto topic. To wit:

If the fun of playing with h264 keeps an encoder from quitting fansubbing, then good for him. I think that is a good reason to use h264 even if most people couldn't play his encodes.

If anyone else posts about h264 in a way that isn't related to retiring from fansubbing, your post will be deleted.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by RaistlinMajere

What the hell are you guys bringing H.264 into this thread for? Do you newbs need to whine about it in every damn thread on this forum?

lol <3 you raist HAHAHAHA, oh yeah so my post isn't deleted "retired blah blah, RL rules YAK YAK~"

[ChoBaka]

Newer animes are mostly fanserviced-based, and just aren't as good anymore. Also, people on IRC in general are becoming more rude and less civilized.

This has always been the case. I've heard this rant since I first started watching fansubs (1998) until 2004 (when I worked as a translator for a few months and abruptly retired due to grad school). It seems things haven't changed in 2006 (*gasp*). Yet, life will go on.

Some things I hated about fansubbing:

Waiting for fancy karaoke.

Emphasis placed on speed of release (and the competition among groups because of this).

The incessant drama within the fansubbing community.

Constant bickering while working on projects.

IRC.

Elitism.

Some things I loved about fansubbing (esp. translating):

I learned a lot of Japanese (I haven't used Japanese *at all* in 2 years, and I can still watch anime and understand a good deal of what is being said without paying attention). I've forgotten enough that I can no longer translate reliably.

I enjoyed the actual act of translating.

I got to watch a lot of anime.

It was cool to actually "produce" a fansub with people I've never met, halfway across the world, just by using IRC and FTP servers.

I met some cool folks.

I improved my writing skills.

[SirCanealot]

Wai~ ChoBaka! You can come back and translate more Naruto with me any day of the week!

[ChoBaka]

Originally Posted by SirCanealot

Wai~ ChoBaka! You can come back and translate more Naruto with me any day of the week!

Hey SirCanealot, long time no see!

Heh, the vocab used in Naruto is easy enough...I bet I could still translate it now. Is it still crappy, boring, and drawn out?

[SirCanealot]

I haven't watched any since KBS existed :P
The odd bits and pieces here and there, but... meh ^^

[DryFire]

Originally Posted by ChoBaka

Is it still crappy, boring, and drawn out?

Even more so then before. I'm sure just about anyone could randomly make up a script that would go along better then the actual translation.

[JediNight]

I've been AWOL from the fansubbing scene for a number of months now, and I feel bad so I wanted to leave a heads up and apology for anyone that cares.

I had been in this rut of wanting to fansub, but distracted by other things in my life for over a year, and felt badly that I wasn't putting full effort in projects I was involved with. This spring I thought I was over the hump, but once again I got overwhelmed between school, work, fansubbing and the general direction of my life.

So I made a decision to cut cold turkey and completely distance myself from fansubbing until I have my life in order that I can dedicate full effort into whatever I may get involved with. So that is basically why I've been completely absent from IRC and everything else since spring. I get anxiety over worrying about people being mad at me for delaying on a project, and my reflex action is to stay away from contact more ... a bad cycle. That's basically why it took me so long to write this post too =\

I want to apologize to Raistlin_Majere and the others involved with Kashimashi ... I'm so sorry I let you guys down, and I felt too stressed to come back and say anything.

So for anyone wondering, that's what has been up with me. I got my own apartment now (used to live with 3 other people) and that is helping a lot to keep things straightened out with less distractions. I'll be going to Anime Expo again this year, for anyone else that is going. And I'll see where I'm at this fall with school ... if I can keep a good schedule I should be back around on IRC and whatever else then.

Laters.

[StarCreator]

See you at AX... maybe?