Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

The wings of accel arent his aim field per se, they are made out of dark matter which seems to be a matter which shows up if a being reaches a certain level of divinity....
the problem is that it is impossible to reach such a place with magic alone (yeah, i answer now), magic is the wrong system (or it is only a part of the way to reach omnipotence), since Index is a being completly dyed in magic it is impossible for her to overcome the level of a magic god....

if it would be possible to do it with magic alone than why is aleister still trying to overcome this limits?

They're, check the description from Aleister+HC talk (vol.13). Only Kakine has the dark matter because he is one who touched tthe territory inhabited by God (material) while Accel is the Power that matches God (control power).

Well, again I pull your ears and repeat you: even Aleister told Fiamma if he used Horus then he would be on a similar position as himself, and Fiamma is a pure magic character. And from Fiamma's deductions Aleister is trying to go beyond God's system by working outside it through Aiwass, who was summoned the first time when he still was on the magic side (whe means Aleister reached Horus with magic). Aleister didn't have his current goal and I guess why, Aiwass hints Aleister faced defeat and instead of trying to get up on his feets he just quit from magic side, albeit not from magic he still has his Blasting Rod that is a magic tool.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

The wings of accel arent his aim field per se, they are made out of dark matter which seems to be a matter which shows up if a being reaches a certain level of divinity....
the problem is that it is impossible to reach such a place with magic alone (yeah, i answer now), magic is the wrong system (or it is only a part of the way to reach omnipotence), since Index is a being completly dyed in magic it is impossible for her to overcome the level of a magic god....

if it would be possible to do it with magic alone than why is aleister still trying to overcome this limits?

-_- ..... ah people what's happening?

okay lvl7 you misunderstanding if you think Accel's wing isn't made up of AIM or part of his AIM field.

Index even identifies it as the same as telesma but the fundamental particles that made up of it isn't telesma but AIM.

This part alone tells that one can attain the level of divinity with magic format.

As for the wings of Accel itself. Its made up of AIM that turn into alien being.

Your forgetting again what is dark matter. Dark matter shouldn't be classify as anything that is created only be kakine or awaken beings. its just a name plastered into a matter that is totally alien to known physics.

it means. even magic side can have dark matter but its made up of telesma/mana instead of AIM.

Accel's dark/white wings is an extension of his aim field. its made up of aim that within the effect of the wings. IMAGINARY VECTORS are created. Instead of new laws or alien matters/laws are created. It become vectors that shouldn't exist.

See the difference?

even if Accel and Kakine have the same type of awakening. has the same type of wings. the fundamental difference is the uses and function of said wings.

accel and kakine can have the same unknown wings which is made up of unknown matter which can be called dark matter BUT the power it has is different.

kakine can create new laws from his wings

while

accelerator can create unknown or imaginary vectors from his wings

same material = dark matter = unknown material

BUT

not the same power.

let's get back to index crimson/blood/scarlet wings

its probably has the same properties of a real christian angel and its not much explain on how its been created but I will speculate that its made up of telesma and probably could be the same as kakine and accelerator's wings but has different particles made up.

Now, Index could be a majin candidate or impure majin but I doubt that she could utilize its would power to turn into a real majin.

Just like what's been foreshadowed in vol 18.

I doubt index will be the last boss but will probably among the boss before the last boss.

She is fundamentally a magical library and not a magical fortress or weapon.

she is created to store grimoire and be the guard for it.

And what do you do in library?

read books in it.

its not like the library will suddenly attack you.

its meant to safe keep the books inside of it.

so who will be the enemy?

the one who uses the library or the one who reads it.

the one who can utilize it is probably the royal queen of england and laura though I more into laura as one of the final boss aside from aleister.

[LevelSeven]

As for the wings of Accel itself. Its made up of AIM that turn into alien being.

Your forgetting again what is dark matter. Dark matter shouldn't be classify as anything that is created only be kakine or awaken beings. its just a name plastered into a matter that is totally alien to known physics.

it means. even magic side can have dark matter but its made up of telesma/mana instead of AIM.

Accel's dark/white wings is an extension of his aim field. its made up of aim that within the effect of the wings. IMAGINARY VECTORS are created. Instead of new laws or alien matters/laws are created. It become vectors that shouldn't exist.

can you give me a part of the novels which states this?

the thing WE know is that the black wings are made out of dark matter, of course it interferes with accels aim fields but the problem is that the novels only stated this much, "imaginary vectors" are also created by fans which fused: accel looks like a angel + fuse kazakiri + she lives in the imaginary number district....

fact: imaginary numbers arent imaginary like the name suggests, they are numbers inside the R^2, not really impossible, people who work with electrictiy or something like that are only calculating with the complex numbers (imaginary numbers).....

WE only knew that accel can control vectors without touching them, their was never said anything regrading imaginary vectors....fact: their wasnt even said that accel controlled vectors in his awakening mode, all we know that he spoke and stretched out his hands and kakine was defeated, it can also be that he distorted reality itself (the white wings are showing this even better).... so their is nothing which proofes or disproofes your or my speculations....
until now it is even unclear if the wings are a power up for his esper ability or a completly new power (i go for the latter since accel had no vector shield in his awakened mode which is strange because he should have it with the wings2.0 , i can be wrong but did he have a shield while he was hit by the grenade in Vol.12/13???? )

this said, i highly doubt that Index's wings can consist out of this stuff, the powers which lpsda fiamma had was also limited by mana and telesma, othinus used her own broken mana core as fuel, why should Index have something else??

[allfictions]

he still has his Blasting Red that is a magic tool.

Rod.

Originally Posted by Miraluka

Aleister didn't have his current goal and I guess why, Aiwass hints Aleister faced defeat and instead of trying to get up on his feets he just quit from magic side

So he ragequit the Magic forum?

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

if it would be possible to do it with magic alone than why is aleister still trying to overcome this limits?

Then why did he still uses the form of an "angel" when Hyouka was formed or Accelerator's awaken form?

Aleister only said to Fiamma that he uses the wrong format but he didn't say he was wrong. He did say that they are doing the same thing but fundamentally he should use the format of Horus than Osiris.

Even if you deny it. Aleister is still a magician to the core. he even had his rod of blasting.

He just uses a different approach when tackling godhood.

So with that said.

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

this said, i highly doubt that Index's wings can consist out of this stuff, the powers which lpsda fiamma had was also limited by mana and telesma, othinus used her own broken mana core as fuel, why should Index have something else??

Why can't index wings be the same as Accelerator and Kakine's wing?

Because its a fact that Accelerator and Kakine's wings are more like an occult than scientific one.

But he ignored all of those and shouted about something else.

“What the hell are those black wings growing from your back!?”

They looked more like jets than wings.

Some unknown substance was being sprayed out as wings that were darker than ink and swallowed up even the light.

Kihara had seen an “angel”. He had understood that he had helped make it appear. But he was still unable to properly grasp the scene occurring before his eyes.

(Th-that bastard…)

Accelerator’s power gave him control over all vectors regardless of what type they were. His speech ability, walking ability, and the acquisition of this new power had likely all used some kind of power that existed in that local space.

Scientifically speaking, Accelerator was currently unable to perform any physics calculations, so it should have been impossible for him to control any physical force.

But what if there was some other power?

If he had grabbed ahold of some unscientific theory, did it matter what calculations he could make?

The occult.

That was what appeared to be a set of irregular laws that showed themselves ever so slightly after thousands and tens of thousands of experiments and that only a researcher of Kihara’s level would know about.

(He’s achieved a new clearance level for what he can control? What values did he input into his Personal Reality? What has he secured a method of communicating with!?)

The only possibility he could think of was the representative example of a power filling Academy City.

(AIM!? …Wait, it can’t be! Is that power actually that angel or whatever!?)

But Accelerator was not going to wait around.

He poured more strength into his grip as he squeezed Kihara’s skull.

“…”

He smiled. He silently smiled.

“Ha ha ha,” laughed back Kihara Amata as his arms and legs hung down limply.

And he asked a question.

“H-have you…seen what’s behind you, you monster?”

“ihbfKILLwq”

The black wings explosively burst out.

An unexplainable and invisible power burst from Accelerator’s hand and assaulted Kihara Amata.

His body left Accelerator’s hand, shot through the abandoned office at terrifying speed, flew out of the broken window, and cut across the night sky at dozens of times the speed of sound. He moved so quickly that he turned to plasma and left behind an orange afterimage.

“Wha…?!”

He completely didn’t understand what just happened.

Accelerator’s wings didn’t move at all. He only stared at Kakine and slightly moved his hands. With just that, he defeated Kakine who had absolute power and ground him deep into the ground.

His right hand that had the Tweezers on it was torn off from the elbow downwards.

(Ah! …Uwah! Wh-Wha?! Just what is—)

Accelerator must have changed vectors and energies of some sort, and redirected those towards Kakine as an attack. Even though he understood, even if Accelerator had gathered all the energies in this world, this phenomenon shouldn’t have happened. The Kakine Teitoku now couldn’t lose to this world.

Unreasonable.

Inexplicable.

With an overwhelming presence Accelerator walked step by step towards Kakine Teitoku. His steps were like the countdown until the end of Kakine’s life, when it reached zero it would be all over. And, Accelerator had reached that last step.

“Ha, ha.”

“—yjrpEVILqw”

“Bastard…! Damn it, so this is how it is!! Your mission is…?!”

No reply, just a fist filled with killing intent.

An overwhelming slaughter had begun

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, hm?”

However, Aiwass shook its head while looking at those black wings.

Accelerator had no way of knowing, but what Aiwass had just said referred to the central pillar of a certain magician and had been recorded in the Book of the Law.

“Unfortunately, that is from the wrong rggrAEONipiregj. Your rsgPOWERnophe is from Osiris’s time. With that, you cannot truly hosefOPPOSEqierd one from Horus such as myself.”

A tremendous roar rang out.

It was a shockwave created by the clash between black and pale platinum wings.

The shockwave became a storm.

An explosive wind was created with Accelerator and Aiwass at the center. However, the fight was not even. In the first strike, Accelerator’s black wings were torn off at the base and the second strike completely sliced them to pieces. A sound that was more of a roar than it was a yell reverberated throughout the area. Aiwass swung its pale platinum wings again. Red blood flew into the air and was blown away by the explosive wind.

There was simply too great a gap between them.

Accelerator’s black wings were quite destructive, but it was a bit like he was simply swinging around a heavy wooden club. On the other hand, Aiwass’s wings were more like a sharp and famous sword that was being wielded with incredible skill.

The sound of something falling to the ground could be heard.

No, it was the sound of someone collapsing.

“So this is all?” Aiwass said looking down at Accelerator who was lying in the middle of a pool of blood.

A normal person would certainly have died, but Accelerator was still breathing. He was subconsciously using his vector transformation ability to circulate his blood between the broken blood vessels. Due to this, streams of red liquid were flowing around him like a drink spilled in outer space.

But that was it.

He was just barely managing to hold onto his life. He could do nothing more to revive himself.

“I tried to bring you to attack me by bringing up Last Order, but I was able to do so much easier than I had expected. With this level of maturity, you cannot even deal with Fuse Kazakiri. Dammit Aleister, are you rushing things this time, too? …The matter of Kakine Teitoku bothers me as well.”

Having said that, Aiwass turned its back on Accelerator. The being used its legs to walk from the area. That mundane method seemed much odder than if it had suddenly disappeared or flown away.

And then what felt to Aiwass like a tiny crack appeared in the center of its body.

An error had occurred in the aggregation of AIM diffusion fields that controlled Aiwass’s existence. Thinking about what could have caused it, Aiwass turned around. Aiwass began to disintegrate starting with the ends of its golden hair, but its expression did not change.

“You said…” came a cracking voice.

It was Accelerator’s voice, but it was no longer in the indecipherable language that Aiwass had also been using. He was now speaking in proper human words.

“…You said that…you appeared by using…the AIM diffusion fields…throughout Academy City… And that kid was…given a virus to create…something called Fuse…Kazakiri…in order to control…your appearance…”

“So you have thought about it.”

Immediately after he muttered those words, there was a sound like an explosion and wings that were black like ink erupted from Accelerator’s back. Those black wings were the symbol of his anger. That tremendous power was full of mysteries. He doubted it was created simply with the help of the Misaka Network and he had no idea if Last Order could forcibly shut it down. Whenever those wings had appeared, Accelerator had been in a state where he had pretty much completely lost his mental balance. They appeared when he simply wished to kill the enemy before his eyes even if it meant casting aside everything he believed in. The killer intent erupting from his chest had trampled over the world in the form of those black wings. That was the kind of power it was.

With a sound like cracks spreading across ice, the monster’s wings changed color. The ink-like pitch black changed to a snow-like pure white. Starting from the base and spreading to the tips, the outer color and the inner essence all changed in an instant.

Just above his head, a small ring of the same color appeared.

That was his transformation.

With that mental change, he became a source that spewed forth a unique power into the real world.

Accelerator put his hands on Last Order’s small shoulders, lightly pushed, and floated up into the sky due to the recoil like an astronaut in zero gravity.

Last Order’s small hands stretched up into the sky toward Accelerator.

But she could not reach him.

Accelerator was already floating a few meters up.

Convinced that he had done the right thing, Accelerator flapped his white wings. His 100 meter wings used more than just the power of the wind. They also converted some more unknown energy into lift. He emitted no force down at the earth, but he still shot up like a bullet.

In an instant, Accelerator reached a point 3000 meters up and scattered the thick clouds that were hanging in the sky.

At the same time, the fortress in the heavens made its move.

The mass of golden power that was being taken in from above and stored underneath was mercilessly thrown downwards. Accelerator could feel the pressure on his cheek as a stinging numbness. Just like his white wings, that power truly was not a normal power. Most likely, his reflection would not work on it. It would just pierce straight through like when he had been defeated by Aiwass.

But so what?

Accelerator moved his white wings even more and his speed of ascent shot up. With no tricks up his sleeve, he headed straight for the falling golden mass. There was a slight smile on his lips.

(I see.)

Accelerator finally realized it.

(So this is what a fight to protect something is like.)

Immediately afterwards, the two massive powers clashed at an altitude of 8000 meters.

known fact.

Kihara's are doing research that in one of thousands of thousands of experiment. Something like this happen. Something unexplained. Something which is more like an OCCULT situation than scientific situation.

Known FACT. what is the thing that covers the whole city?

AIM

Concentration of AIM through students that release their AIM.

This AIM field power ups the imaginary sector or artificial heaven of Aleister (even the name sounds occult like)

Now again, why do you think Index crimson wings isn't the same as angel wings? because telesma so far is not your ordinary mana. It can be considered alien to the normal world because its the energy of the divine and I see no reason on why index wings can't be the same.

And why am I even rereading this stuff... >_>

The magic side should be a lot more closer to divine level because they know it better than science side (aside from Aleister)

So I won't be surprised if they had more angel class magicians aside from saints and valkyrie.

[Miraluka]

So even Fiamma's attack isn't that different from Aiwass'? I overlooked that.

[LevelSeven]

Spoiler for to long:

The occult.

That was what appeared to be a set of irregular laws that showed themselves ever so slightly after thousands and tens of thousands of experiments and that only a researcher of Kihara’s level would know about.

(He’s achieved a new clearance level for what he can control? What values did he input into his Personal Reality? What has he secured a method of communicating with!?)

The only possibility he could think of was the representative example of a power filling Academy City.

(AIM!? …Wait, it can’t be! Is that power actually that angel or whatever!?)

But Accelerator was not going to wait around.

his explanation of accels powers, it is similar with ollerus's explanation of toumas powers....
and many fans still wait for a "real" statement....

“H-have you…seen what’s behind you, you monster?”

“ihbfKILLwq”

The black wings explosively burst out.

An unexplainable and invisible power burst from Accelerator’s hand and assaulted Kihara Amata.

His body left Accelerator’s hand, shot through the abandoned office at terrifying speed, flew out of the broken window, and cut across the night sky at dozens of times the speed of sound. He moved so quickly that he turned to plasma and left behind an orange afterimage.

i think this says it.... he didnt manipulated impossible vectors, he used a complelty unexplicable power...

yeah, well, i think we should add to accels powerlis also the power of the IT XD

However, Aiwass shook its head while looking at those black wings.

Accelerator had no way of knowing, but what Aiwass had just said referred to the central pillar of a certain magician and had been recorded in the Book of the Law.

“Unfortunately, that is from the wrong rggrAEONipiregj. Your rsgPOWERnophe is from Osiris’s time. With that, you cannot truly hosefOPPOSEqierd one from Horus such as myself.”

which doesnt support your point, i dont know why you posted this part??

“…You said that…you appeared by using…the AIM diffusion fields…throughout Academy City… And that kid was…given a virus to create…something called Fuse…Kazakiri…in order to control…your appearance…”

this was for aiwass....in this volume they only statd that the black wings are form the aeon of osiris and not that they are the things which amata speculated...

Those black wings were the symbol of his anger. That tremendous power was full of mysteries. He doubted it was created simply with the help of the Misaka Network and he had no idea if Last Order could forcibly shut it down. Whenever those wings had appeared, Accelerator had been in a state where he had pretty much completely lost his mental balance. They appeared when he simply wished to kill the enemy before his eyes even if it meant casting aside everything he believed in. The killer intent erupting from his chest had trampled over the world in the form of those black wings. That was the kind of power it was.

this whole thing only says that the black wings show up if accel really wants to kill someone, what has this to do with what we discussing here??
which are (if im not wrong): what index's wings are,
what the natura fo accels wings are and which power he showed in his awakening...

He completely didn’t understand what just happened.

Accelerator’s wings didn’t move at all. He only stared at Kakine and slightly moved his hands. With just that, he defeated Kakine who had absolute power and ground him deep into the ground.

His right hand that had the Tweezers on it was torn off from the elbow downwards.

(Ah! …Uwah! Wh-Wha?! Just what is—)

Accelerator must have changed vectors and energies of some sort, and redirected those towards Kakine as an attack. Even though he understood, even if Accelerator had gathered all the energies in this world, this phenomenon shouldn’t have happened. The Kakine Teitoku now couldn’t lose to this world.

Unreasonable.

Inexplicable.

again: kamachi even wrote it himself, not explicable....
accels wings are far more than compressed aim or dark matter....
even the owner of unknown matter couldnt explain what happened (and he shhould understand what happened if someone used his ability against him)....
but what i understood: kakine is in his awakening powerful enough to solo the toaru earth < accel in his complete black wings < accel in his white wings....

The ink-like pitch black changed to a snow-like pure white. Starting from the base and spreading to the tips, the outer color and the inner essence all changed in an instant.

Just above his head, a small ring of the same color appeared.

That was his transformation.

With that mental change, he became a source that spewed forth a unique power into the real world.

Accelerator put his hands on Last Order’s small shoulders, lightly pushed, and floated up into the sky due to the recoil like an astronaut in zero gravity.

Last Order’s small hands stretched up into the sky toward Accelerator.

But she could not reach him.

Accelerator was already floating a few meters up.

Convinced that he had done the right thing, Accelerator flapped his white wings. His 100 meter wings used more than just the power of the wind. They also converted some more unknown energy into lift. He emitted no force down at the earth, but he still shot up like a bullet.

In an instant, Accelerator reached a point 3000 meters up and scattered the thick clouds that were hanging in the sky.

At the same time, the fortress in the heavens made its move.

The mass of golden power that was being taken in from above and stored underneath was mercilessly thrown downwards. Accelerator could feel the pressure on his cheek as a stinging numbness. Just like his white wings, that power truly was not a normal power. Most likely, his reflection would not work on it. It would just pierce straight through like when he had been defeated by Aiwass.

and than again: this shows what activates his white wings: the opposite of "wanting to kill someone"....

So even Fiamma's attack isn't that different from Aiwass'? I overlooked that.

no, they are opposites... fiammas attack was build with the power of magic even if he reached a state close to god, it was still magic and with symbols and this believe-BS understandable...

Aiwass on the other hand is like a four-dimensional being which is not understandable since the human mind can imagine four dimensions....

the reason for this similarity is that the summoned telesam while fiamma was in his lsdap mode is following so complex rules that accel would be able to reflect it, which is good because if accel succeeded in reflecting it, it would chance into something else (maybe fire) and still fall down, so he decided to play atlas and carry the gaint ball XD

Now again, why do you think Index crimson wings isn't the same as angel wings? because telesma so far is not your ordinary mana. It can be considered alien to the normal world because its the energy of the divine and I see no reason on why index wings can't be the same.

did i ever say that her wings cant be made from telesma?? how should he reach the level of a angel if not with telesma??

this is the reaosn why IB also works on telesma, but it isnt "alien"-enough, even if telesma/mana cant be measured like normal energy, they still have laws, they arent completly out of the understanding for everyone like unknown matter...

Kihara's are doing research that in one of thousands of thousands of experiment. Something like this happen. Something unexplained. Something which is more like an OCCULT situation than scientific situation.

how do you think have the people which created magic found this laws out???
they experimented and with time they refined their knowledge, afterall this should happen if they try to understand the world....

[desrtsku]

Yeah, Lv7's got a point. The characters that saw Accel's wings so far (and gave their own interpretations) couldn't even comprehend it to begin with. Saying stuffs like "it's made of AIM and Dark Matter" or "it's from the magic side" are all unconfirmed suppositions. We can't really deny anything either though.

Originally Posted by tsunade

So I won't be surprised if they had more angel class magicians aside from saints and valkyrie.

Angel class? where does that even come from?

Originally Posted by tsunade

The magic side should be a lot more closer to divine level because they know it better than science side

Define "Divine" and "magic side".
I'm just trying to point that Othinus and Ollerus were already gods. Furthermore, Fiamma's up there too before losing his arm.

[Miraluka]

no, they are opposites... fiammas attack was build with the power of magic even if he reached a state close to god, it was still magic and with symbols and this believe-BS understandable...

Aiwass on the other hand is like a four-dimensional being which is not understandable since the human mind can imagine four dimensions....

the reason for this similarity is that the summoned telesam while fiamma was in his lsdap mode is following so complex rules that accel would be able to reflect it, which is good because if accel succeeded in reflecting it, it would chance into something else (maybe fire) and still fall down, so he decided to play atlas and carry the gaint ball XD

He was able because now he had the experience he got from Aiwass, he even outright says it. Both are unknown set of laws.

[LevelSeven]

He was able because now he had the experience he got from Aiwass, he even outright says it. Both are unknown set of laws.

yeah, i didnt say anything to deny this, what i mwant was that fiammas telesma bomb and aiwass wings cant be compared since fiamma even as lsdap is still under aiwass.....
but both forces are still unknown for accel this is true......

[Miraluka]

They can be compared, both are sets of unknown laws for Accel, remember what is important isn't the amount or type of power but how it's used.

[LevelSeven]

They can be compared, both are sets of unknown laws for Accel, remember what is important isn't the amount or type of power but how it's used.

if you compare them with accel as start point...than yes they are still unknown forces....

but the way i understood your post: you meant that fiammas attack was equal to aiwass's wings which isnt correct...

[Inept Forum User]

Apologies in advance for asking questions which are on subjects with little evidence available (and poorly written):

• Aside from the two examples featured in the Amakusa SS, what pieces of folklore or mythology do you reckon could be classed as having 'fallen into the "cracks"'?
• For the downloaded arsenal of the British Museum, most of the replicated spiritual items weren't given much description so it is difficult to guess what their identity and mechanics might be, but...are there any which anyone would be willing to venture a guess as to what they might be based on?
• Following on from the above, are there any particular spells in the series, of which we currently don't know the basis for, which people have theories/speculation concerning their basis?
• Regarding the satellite Xiuhcoatl, what do you reckon is its fuel setup?
• Can you think of any pieces of potential bases, that could possibly be used for aspect/symbolic interference with regards to magical mechanics?

[Doom_Paperclip]

There is such a thing as foreshadowing, but there is also such a thing as a red herring. Not all wings in TAMNI are significant. Floris had magical items that served as wings, Mikoto made wings out of hydrogen ect... It is true that there a bunch of special wings out there like Accelerator's, but I have yet to see any evidence that suggests that Pendex's wings aren't just a spell.

You brushed off my comment about Stiyl, but my point still stands. If Pendex's wings were anything special, he should have been going "OMG wings!" or something like that, but he didn't. The fact that he was equally on guard against all of Pendex's attacks means that they were all on the same level. This suggests that the wings are just a spell.

To begin with, why does Pendex even need to top up Othinus? One of the best things about TAMNI is that, unlike classic shounen, it is not strictly bound by the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. In a series like DBZ, last season's villain becomes obsolete the next due to ever inflating power levels. However, IB can negate or deflect any power, no matter how large, making raw power levels largely irrelevant. How you use your power is much more important then how much you have. Hence Touma can defeat someone like Fiamma one day and still need Birdway to help him face someone like Cendrillion a few days later. There is no need for the next arc to feature someone more powerful than Othinus.

I am sure that Aleister and Aiwass will eventually top Othinus for the climax, but that's another story for another Volume. Pendex is plenty threatening with 103000 grimoires even without reaching Angel/Majin/Whatever levels of power.

[LevelSeven]

seems a bit to quiet here

so to heat up this thread again i will post some random threories abotu the powers of toaru chars
PS: not every theory is from me :

1. Gunha is a Dual-skill user

2. can toumas IB negate the abilitys of gemstones??
because they are like souls or leylines, supernatural but still part of the normal world

3. did fiamma ever used any form direct win attack??
because i read every part of his fights and he never showed a real: I Win-Power, his HR was overhelming but their wasnt some unknown-force-BS which defeated the enemy right??
he was able to destroy everything which he touched with his right hand, and he could reach every place with his HR but he has done stuff in order to defeat vento or elizards bodguards or sasha kreutzow,
i cant remember to see a real: "swinging his right hand and the enemy was crushed into the ground, he won" - button

4. has mikoto ever showed the ability to control electricity without using her own??
i mean: she created electrictiy and attacked with that or used it for magnetic-side-version-stuff but she never directly controlled a different source of electrivity

5. is misakis ability also related to electricity??
she was able to create a "barrier" in order to protects the sisters from virus's, she couldnt control mikoto since her abilitys "clash" bettween each other

6. are PR's part of the life force (soul) of the esper or only a physical dfferent grow of the brain??
it would support the point about why esper cant use magic, they have a slightly "different" life force than normal magician

so than: happy discussing XD

[LG-MAX]

3. did fiamma ever used any form direct win attack??
because i read every part of his fights and he never showed a real: I Win-Power, his HR was overhelming but their wasnt some unknown-force-BS which defeated the enemy right??
he was able to destroy everything which he touched with his right hand, and he could reach every place with his HR but he has done stuff in order to defeat vento or elizards bodguards or sasha kreutzow,
i cant remember to see a real: "swinging his right hand and the enemy was crushed into the ground, he won" - button

Vol 16 - epilogue, fighting the guards of the Vatican.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

-snip-

Talk about red herring and foreshadowing, I have my own take in that. Well, I keep repeating myself through my sarcasm filled posts but they are most likely spells, or at least something created through the use of spells. Some evidences are there :

1. Artificially constructed by Pendex' knowledges, not through some "he/she's so evolved and pissed off he/she suddenly can sprout wings without really wishing for it." shennanigans like the others.
2. She apparently referred to them as "spell". (regardless of what some people in denial might say)
3. She herself attempted to create a freaking artificial Angel through the use of a spell back in vol 1.
4. God's right seat members, Sasha and Carissa didn't suddenly sprout visible wings despite having powers akin to Angels/Archangels.
5. + some of what you said.

[Birdway]

Look at what I've started from that theory lol(or it wasn't me?)

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Talk about red herring and foreshadowing, I have my own take in that. Well, I keep repeating myself through my sarcasm filled posts but they are most likely spells, or at least something created through the use of spells. Some evidences are there :

1. Artificially constructed by Pendex' knowledges, not through some "he/she's so evolved and pissed off he/she suddenly can sprout wings without really wishing for it." shennanigans like the others.
2. She apparently referred to them as "spell". (regardless of what some people in denial might say)
3. She herself attempted to create a freaking artificial Angel through the use of a spell back in vol 1.
4. God's right seat members, Sasha and Carissa didn't suddenly sprout visible wings despite having powers akin to Angels/Archangels.
5. + some of what you said.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

4. God's right seat members, Sasha and Carissa didn't suddenly sprout visible wings despite having powers akin to Angels/Archangels.

1. Sorry, I don't get you, but I'm sure that is related to her mind linked to Fiamma and the overloaed of information she got from that.
2. I searched the vol.20-22 raw text and so far there is no indication that confirms her wings are a spell, and actually there is an instance where Styl gets surprised like "wings?!" but it seems they version Js06 modified cut off that line.
3. She just called in magic and gave it the form of an angel which isn't the same as creating an angel or summoning one.There always will be people that just wants to give the counter for the sake of it, disregarding those pieces of hints here and there, you're one. That's why I leave you there.
4. My guess is because of the methods they used to reach that, GRS have their bodies like angelic propertis, Carrisa only got the power from the sword not and Sasha was just a vessel for a fraction of Gabriel, if it was more she would die.

There is such a thing as foreshadowing, but there is also such a thing as a red herring. Not all wings in TAMNI are significant. Floris had magical items that served as wings, Mikoto made wings out of hydrogen ect... It is true that there a bunch of special wings out there like Accelerator's, but I have yet to see any evidence that suggests that Pendex's wings aren't just a spell.

Those former you mentioned can't be called red herring since those were explained on how they work. The latter don't.

You brushed off my comment about Stiyl, but my point still stands. If Pendex's wings were anything special, he should have been going "OMG wings!" or something like that, but he didn't. The fact that he was equally on guard against all of Pendex's attacks means that they were all on the same level. This suggests that the wings are just a spell.

You can't be serious dude. Go read the part where Styil says she is so worn out due to both Laura's and Fiamma's remote control working at the same time. He even says if that was like the time he fought against her on vol.1 he would be already dead.

To begin with, why does Pendex even need to top up Othinus? One of the best things about TAMNI is that, unlike classic shounen, it is not strictly bound by the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. In a series like DBZ, last season's villain becomes obsolete the next due to ever inflating power levels. However, IB can negate or deflect any power, no matter how large, making raw power levels largely irrelevant. How you use your power is much more important then how much you have. Hence Touma can defeat someone like Fiamma one day and still need Birdway to help him face someone like Cendrillion a few days later. There is no need for the next arc to feature someone more powerful than Othinus.

Pendex no, Index as a whole, and not as a magic god or as a GRS like Fiamma but something different. I'm one of those who thinks that those wings means that maybe Index deviated from the path people like Othinus and Ollerus take, and there are chances that it might be related to the method Aleister is using on Academy City.

I am sure that Aleister and Aiwass will eventually top Othinus for the climax, but that's another story for another Volume. Pendex is plenty threatening with 103000 grimoires even without reaching Angel/Majin/Whatever levels of power.

I don't know whay are youre heading to with this, but in this series is clear that more power doesn't grants you victory but how you used it.

Now, I'm out for the time being until Kamachi reveals some news.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Birdway

1. Sorry, I don't get you, but I'm sure that is related to her mind linked to Fiamma and the overloaed of information she got from that.

Do you have any proof or just making your own fanfiction? Because I do have ones for mine. Which is : read the previous posts in this thread. Thinking about it again the fist one was a mistake so I better remake it.

Spoiler for Light Novel sauce:

Originally Posted by vol 21 war report 1

“…Enemy confirmed. Now analyzing…the enemy’s spells and…construction a corresponding local weapon…”

Originally Posted by vol 21 chap 5 part 4

“Chapter 8, Verse 25. Beginning elimination of the person obstructing the remote viewing. Analyzing the structure of the enemy’s spell.”

The noise as if from a scratched record was now gone.

And with a great wind, red wings grew from the back of the girl in the white nun’s habit. Their color resembled blood more than fire. As complex magic circles flickered within her pupils, she slowly moved her head around viewing her surroundings.

Originally Posted by vol 21 chap 5 part 4

With that great shock to his back, even his breathing stopped. The girl with magic circles hidden in her eyes calmly watched on.

“Chapter 10, Verse 3. Effects of the current spell confirmed. Extending the power and range in order to end the life functions of the enemy element has been determined to be the most effective method.”

Multiple red wings stretched out all at once.

The wings had grown large enough that they grazed the ceiling of the cathedral as they rushed towards Stiyl like a closing bear trap.

Or to put it shortly :

Spoiler for Accel:

"That day when I fought that Kihara bastard? Yeah I remember it like it was yesterday. I was so pissed off that day. So much I felt like I could just kill everything that had the slightest bit of life. Suddenly those black things grew out from my back. I didn't even know where those came from. I don't even know how the freaking why, but those damn things did whatever I wanted them to do without me even understanding what the hell they were ... well, I didn't even have the ability to understand anything at that time, kuekekekekeke. Whatever, it looked damn useful, so £µck it, I used them."

Spoiler for Kakine:

"My name is Kakine. I'm the No.2 of Academy city. You want to know more about my Dark Matter power? Truth to be told, I frankly don't understand that much about it, myself. For as long as I can remember, this power of mine has the weird tendency to take the form of wings attached to my back. I don't know why it does that and can't do anything about it, which is literally hell because it looks so damn gay. Now, everyone else in the Dark Side makes fun of me by calling it "Kiddy Matter" or "Dark Girly Matter" or some other $h!t. £µck this, Imma kill'em all one of these days."

Spoiler for Pendex:

"Chapter 11 verse 4 : One day, I fought that weird priest with red hair, code bar and piercing. After analysing his spells I concluded that something powerful but Christian related would be very effective against him. So those wings came out from my back and they blew off whatever he was supposed to cast. yes, it actually worked. However, he didn't die. So I made them grow even bigger to make them more effective at killing him. Anyway, he kept throwing spells including some Norse one at me, and reused that Innocentius again like he doesn't know how to do anything else. In the end, I decided to use my Favourite Norse spell and even attempted a Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani -because I like red-. Too bad, that witch hunting pope spammer survived. I wish I had emotions to express how frustrated I was from fighting that annoyingly persistent spamming roach."

"Chapter 11 verse 5 : Are you asking me if creating Angel wings is that exceptional? Not that much, actually. Using the large variety of spells I have in my library, I can easily create things with great power and with the shape of Angels. I did that back with zero mana and the help of an outsider back in July. There's no reason why I can't just create Angel Wings or something that looks like it through these methods."

"Chapter 11 verse 6 : For for some reason, people think that when I create Angel Wings, it can't be through my usual method but through some weird phenomenons similar to those two white guys from Academy City who don't even know what they're doing. I feel so dishonoured by that."

Originally Posted by Birdway

2. -snip-

Just look above or read the previous posts starting from here if you want to follow the arguments.

Originally Posted by Birdway

3. She just called in magic and gave it the form of an angel which isn't the same as creating an angel or summoning one.

So, you're basically saying that there's the possibility that those currently discussed red wings of hers might just be magic items in the form of Angel Wings, instead of actual Angels Wings, if we consider that they're from a spell.
I'm pretty sure it was the point I was trying to make since the very beginning of this discussion, so thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Birdway

4. -My guess-.

Where's the proof that is supposed to back that up?

[Birdway]

TLDRyourRant.jpg:

What I say is those wings aren't a spell but part of her power just like the esper wings are.

EDIT: You ignored the part I mentioned checking the raw where from what I got it refers to Styil's not Index, oh well.