AnimeSuki Forums

Blue Siren · 2004-02-12, 13:04

[\You also can't use it to pay for stolen goods.[/QUOTE]

You are right, there is a lot of things you can't buy because is illigal... but we are not discussing sex, drugs, nukes or any of that stuff are we?

And if it was a free funsub to begin with, I am not paying for stolen goos. I'm paying for someone else to go through the trouble to put them together in a nice little package for me...ne?

I won't desagree saying that I'm right and you're wrong and stuff like that... this subject is just like politics, there are no right sides, only opinions of what "is" or "should be" right.
Me? I take the funsubs over the licensed versions anytime. Fans do it out of pure love for the anime and want everyone else to enjoy it as much as they have. I would never...never buy anything distributed by Funimation for instance, but that dosen't mean I don't like Fruits Basket or Tenchi... so what do I do? I also hate dubbs.

Another thing is that I donate whenever I can... does that mean I'm buying from the subbers... no, It only means that I appriciate their hard work and I let them know with my hard earned money. Whether they spend it on sex or nukes is not my problem... who say they have to spend the donations stricktly on their sites, equipment...etc. Baka-san jokes about the money being for his girlfriend... so what if it really is? The guy deserve it, for putting up the eps. every week wothout fail... so if he wants to buy something totally for his own personal use... does that mean he's gaining profit?

Like I said it is a matter of opinion, you shouldn't point fingers and judge other by saying they're ignorants and their opinions do not matter only because they do not share yours. I may sound narrow minded, but I am not cinical. I won't diss those who sell anime simply because I have benefit from both ends. I do not sell it as a matter of fact I let my friends come to my place and burn VCD's to their hearts content(for free, they gotta bring their cd's though^^) just so they can see how great anime is and that it goes beyond Yugioh and Pokemon.

DjDeluxay · 2004-02-12, 13:07

Wow, people trying to find ways around the law to get money.
hm.. isn't that what everyone does?

OhJustSomeRandomGuy · 2004-02-12, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Siren

[\You also can't use it to pay for stolen goods.

You are right, there is a lot of things you can't buy because is illigal... but we are not discussing sex, drugs, nukes or any of that stuff are we?

And if it was a free funsub to begin with, I am not paying for stolen goos. I'm paying for someone else to go through the trouble to put them together in a nice little package for me...ne?[/QUOTE]

You're paying someone...for something that belongs to someone else.

Stolen goods.

Ne?

Blue Siren · 2004-02-12, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Siren

[\You also can't use it to pay for stolen goods.

I won't desagree saying that I'm right and you're wrong and stuff like that... this subject is just like politics, there are no right sides, only opinions of what "is" or "should be" right.
Me? I take the funsubs over the licensed versions anytime. Fans do it out of pure love for the anime and want everyone else to enjoy it as much as they have. I would never...never buy anything distributed by Funimation for instance, but that dosen't mean I don't like Fruits Basket or Tenchi... so what do I do? I also hate dubbs.

Another thing is that I donate whenever I can... does that mean I'm buying from the subbers... no, It only means that I appriciate their hard work and I let them know with my hard earned money. Whether they spend it on sex or nukes is not my problem... who say they have to spend the donations stricktly on their sites, equipment...etc. Baka-san jokes about the money being for his girlfriend... so what if it really is? The guy deserve it, for putting up the eps. every week wothout fail... so if he wants to buy something totally for his own personal use... does that mean he's gaining profit?

Like I said it is a matter of opinion, you shouldn't point fingers and judge other by saying they're ignorants and their opinions do not matter only because they do not share yours. I may sound narrow minded, but I am not cinical. I won't diss those who sell anime simply because I have benefit from both ends. I do not sell it as a matter of fact I let my friends come to my place and burn VCD's to their hearts content(for free, they gotta bring their cd's though^^) just so they can see how great anime is and that it goes beyond Yugioh and Pokemon.[/QUOTE]

I rest my case, no point on keeping this up...I'm going back to Shaman King...Ja ne^^

OhJustSomeRandomGuy · 2004-02-12, 13:54

Nobody had an issue with any of that stuff up there in this post you made, Blue. Except for Gip who was trying to say fansubs were illegal.

Donations for keeping a site up are great. Donations to fansubbers for subbing the anime is great...you're paying THEM for THEIR translations. (If they were SELLING the fansubbed stuff, that'd be a BIG problem, though...unless they were just selling the translation feeds and you applied them yourself to a raw you'd have to d/l from somewhere else.) You see, because it's their own work...they own those translations. But they don't own Naruto.

What is extremely messed up is when you pay people who are NOT the fansubbers and NOT the copyright holders for CDs of something they put no work into the deal except for the burning process.

Fansubbers spend hours on making the translations...the animators spend even MORE time and manpower drawing the thing, and yet the only one who gets money from the transaction is the guy who spends 15 minutes on the deal...or the guy that hosts the Torrent without doing any of the translation work...that's not right. It's utterly and completely wrong. These are issues here which don't have grey areas. When someone does work...you pay THEM. Any other way...and it's just wrong. Period.

raikage · 2004-02-12, 15:05

One quick thing about trying to hide Naruto under 'fair use'

It doesn't fly.

Fair use:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1976 Copyright Act, section 107

Notwithstanding the [exclusive rights of copyright owners], the fair use of a copyrighted work...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classrom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is afair use the factors to be considered shall include -

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a
commerical nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted
work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

It's going to take a LOT of good points and arguments to convince anyone that fansubs have actual social educational value.

About the third and fourth point - there was a case in which a news broadcast showed a man being shot out of a cannon (as part of a circus act or something like that). The man sued the news station, stating that because the news had shown the entirety of his act, it directly affected his livelihood (why would anyone pay to see that when they had just seen it on TV for free?)
The man won; essentially, if the station had used only a little bit of the footage, they would have been okay.

And, this issue has no real winners - I can't see anyone changing their mind b/c of one or two good points. If they would have bought it before,they will continue to be open to buying it. If not, then they still won't.

Is it legally wrong? Yes. Is it morally wrong? Who the f*ck am I to tell you what's morally right/wrong? I believe it is, but that's just my opinion.

OhJustSomeRandomGuy · 2004-02-12, 15:22

Except that "Fair" Use covers you recording a TV program in its entirity and giving it to a friend, which is essentially what fansubbing and distribution is. It' isn't being rebroadcast...it's for someone else's personal use.

Nobody in this debate honestly expects to change anyone's mind who's set on this issue...it's the people who's opinions aren't set that the debate is being waged over. You just want the other side's proponents to realize that they don't have an argument.

Off topic...your screen name is one that looks like it would be expectionally funny sounding if included in a US dub of something...

"RYE CAGE!!!!!!!"

GipFace · 2004-02-12, 16:15

There has to be a readily available copy of said work that can be purchased. If there is not, it is a BROADCAST, and not a RECORDING. Your Audio RECORDING Copyright law is outside its jurisdiction at that point.

The fansubs ARE fair use UP UNTIL the point at which the anime becomes licensed in the terrotiry of the viewer of said fan sub,

Not really. You still haven't explained to me how the thousands of leechers who use the fansubs as R1 replacements constitutes "fair use". In both audio and video recording tech, you are allowed to make copies for your own personal use. A site which distributes fansubs en-mass is pulling a fast one on the law, like Animesuki and Scarywater. They're only still going because it's 'moral'.

You said that there were grounds because there were people who couldn't get them. I asked you to provide such a scenario

Okay, here's a simple one. You actually have a 10 hour job each day and only get one or two hours on the computer each week. You don't want to waste your time downloading the fansubs so you simply buy them in one fell swoop. Simple, huh? In the end, it's still about speed and convenience. People aren't like you; they don't spend hours in forums and BT sites.

Your agruments are all based off of laziness and incovenience. Oh...nobody wants to MAIL ME some CDs...how am I EVER going to get anything.

This site was based off laziness and inconvenience. Instead of going to site after site after site for different BTs, it lists them all in one fell swoop. But buying fansubs is one step above that; all you do is point and click "buy now".

In order to have even an iota of justification, you'd have to find a real-world scenario where it was literally impossible for someone to download Naruto, but yet have an internet connection and money with which they could buy it from Ebay. Find a situation where someone can't download Naruto, and it won't ever come to their country, or you have no argument, you have no justification, and you have NO LEG TO STAND ON.

Okay. I know a bunch of people right here in Canada:
1. They don't own a computer and they don't want one
2. They go to a cyber cafe and head to eBay to buy a fansub and it eats up 10 minutes of their time at most.
3. Once the CDs arrive, they can watch it right away at the cafe and save even more money instead of spending additional money waiting for the downloads to finish.

You can watch 3 episodes of Naruto in an hour. $1.50/hr x 68 + $20 for the fansubs = $122 for the entire screening. A typical night pass at a cafe is $7 and gives you 9 hours of time in the night. $0.78/hr x 68 + $20 for the fansubs = $75 for the night screening. Cheaper than buying a computer, eh?

Wow, was that so hard?

If you answer consists of something that boils down to, "Well, I just don't want to follow the law.", "It's a hassle.", etc. it DOES NOT BEAT THE GIVEN ARGUMENT, it's still assumed that the law is correct from the prior debate.

Using your logic, fansubs are 100% illegal and no one should watch them. Stop creating the double standard. So what if they're not for profit? Animesuki and Scarywater generate income. Either they're both legal, they're both illegal, or they're both "grey" legal and not black and white like you said.

being supported by banners or donations is NOT the same as making a profit. Neither AnimeSuki nor Scarywater makes a profit off of hosting anime files. However, they need the money just to stay up and running. I'm not denying income, just profit.

Non-profit organizations make income. You know, like a church? But churches aren't selling something that was given free. You don't have to pay to hear about Jesus (really, you don't) but you can donate to support the preacher's efforts to bring the teaching to you. (Same thing applies to the televangelist/fansub seller comparison.)

Let's see ... the churches don't threaten to shut down if they don't receive donations. Without the commercialism, the sites are dead, kapoof. The church isn't. Blackmailing the public into donating doesn't seem like 'donating' to me.

Bun-chan types:
Dude common really give up already everyone here(at least the decent one) are against selling fansub

You still don't get it. I'm not arguing about the legality, I'm arguing about the justification. I'm arguing about the greys. Try to read again.

Random-san points are not selfish, because he supports sharing, and you are not.

Actually, arguing against paying for fansubs is selfish itself, because the person won't get them. Don't you just love your logic?

If you use BT,(don't know for a fact, just my opinion) you are probably the type that just turn it off right after you d/l.

Actually, BT is slow and I rarely use it. I'd much rather have dedicated FTPs, bots, and newsgroups giving the goods to me at a constant 176kB/sec XD

OhJustSomeRandomGuy types:
You chose the easy way out. The illegal way. The wrong way. You made a choice, and you chose to be in the wrong.

They are both illegal. Get over it.

You're paying someone...for something that belongs to someone else. Stolen goods. Ne?

Donations for keeping a site up are great. Donations to fansubbers for subbing the anime is great...you're paying THEM for THEIR translations. (If they were SELLING the fansubbed stuff, that'd be a BIG problem, though...unless they were just selling the translation feeds and you applied them yourself to a raw you'd have to d/l from somewhere else.) You see, because it's their own work...they own those translations. But they don't own Naruto.

Let's see ... when the rippers in Japan digitally recorded the video, they did not have this glossy fake image of letting their captured video become fansubbed. No, they wanted to illegally distribute it to other rabid fanboys off the Winny network. Why is Japan cracking down on Winny? If it's illegal at the source, then it's definitely illegal once it's been processed (a.k.a. fansubbed). But fansubs are accepted because it's a grey illegal. Therefore, paying for them doesn't make the fansub itself any more moral.

The warez community relishes this argument. Two people were arrested in Japan for distributing a US movie with Japanese fansubs off of Winny FOR FREE! Their argument right now is that the movie wasn't available in Japan and so their actions were justified. Whoops, I guess they're home free because no one was paid.

The supposed "public service" of their act is negated by their profiteering...

Scarywater has a $972 profit. How about Animesuki? Ads do one thing, they help pay for the cost of the server. Therefore, it's like a second job. Ads will either cover the whole cost and then some, or the ads won't provide enough. There's no way to figure out how much the ads will exactly give you because they're based on referrals.

Therefore, Animesuki and Scarywater profit as well. Guess they're evil too.

I wasn't talking about the people drinking.

Okay, let's rephrase that: "Are you telling me the millions of people who <i>drank</i> smuggled alcohol during prohibition were wrong, too?"

Downloading Naruto is legal.

No it isn't. It's moral, but still illegal. Please see http://animesuki.com/doc.php/licensed/

Your whole argument is thrown out the window.

OhJustSomeRandomGuy · 2004-02-12, 17:08

Sigh...you decide to go to wrong route anyway...fine...

Quote: