Sword Art Online - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Clarste]

Just last episode Kirito and Liz fell down a pit which they thought was a death trap. And then they escaped. It's not completely unforgiving.

I think people who can't see the setting as anything other than a sadistic trap are missing out on a lot of the series. Just look at the dialog between Kirito and Asuna in this episode. People are getting used to it. People are able to enjoy their lives here. There are certainly risks, and people like Asuna feel like there are some things she can only do in reality, but it's not just a hell where you wait for your inevitable death. You live there. And maybe you die there, but you don't have to if you're careful.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Just last episode Kirito and Liz fell down a pit which they thought was a death trap. And then they escaped. It's not completely unforgiving.

I think people who can't see the setting as anything other than a sadistic trap are missing out on a lot of the series. Just look at the dialog between Kirito and Asuna in this episode. People are getting used to it. People are able to enjoy their lives here. There are certainly risks, and people like Asuna feel like there are some things she can only do in reality, but it's not just a hell where you wait for your inevitable death. You live there. And maybe you die there, but you don't have to if you're careful.

Well I think it's still alright to see the whole thing as a sadistic trap. Just not one where there is no hope of survival and at this point no hope of clearing. Both should be possible. But doesn't mean the guy isn't still getting his kicks watching people getting PKed or those who are still cowering in the first town (which hopefully has decreased over time). Besides maybe the lack of incidents these days like with the Black Cats guild was expected and thus why the monster difficulty has increased.

But agree the world is more than that or at the very least the players have made it more than that. People can certainly adapt to a lot of things and plenty have here.

Though, not like jumping onto the back of an attacking dragon and getting flown out is the game being forgiving . Would hope for a more legitimate way out of that problem since if you kill the dragon and happen to fall in....

[Krono]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Would hope for a more legitimate way out of that problem since if you kill the dragon and happen to fall in....

You would then wait for the dragon to respawn, or for one of your allies to get a long enough rope. If you don't have any allies around to see you fall, and the dragon won't respawn until you clear the area, and no one knew where you supposed to be going and will miss you, then yeah you might be screwed.

You'd be pretty much screwed IRL in the same circumstances though. Though in SAO, while you get hungry, it should at least be impossible to starve to death. It would be unpleasant, but you'd still live to escape the game when someone eventually cleared it.

[Key Board]

it IS a sadistic trap

SAO doesn't have to kill people that fail the game. It's not killing people because of a bug or some unintended side effect of the technology

It was made to FRY YOUR BRAIN if fail at this game.

It was an intended feature to punish people that don't live up to some arbitrary game rule decided by an eccentric madman. It's exactly like Saw or Kaiji. (And yes, it is possible to survive those games to.)

And there's just several other things made to give the player a disadvantage.

no long range weapons
no buff abilities
expensive hard to get healing items
allowing player killing in CO-OP game

The game favors people like Kirito who over-level and grind like a Chinese gold farmer.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well I think it's still alright to see the whole thing as a sadistic trap.

It's a deathtrap built on top of a balanced and challenging MMORPG. But it's not like Kayaba went out of his way to make it more difficult or anything. He just equated avatar death with player death.

Though, not like jumping onto the back of an attacking dragon and getting flown out is the game being forgiving . Would hope for a more legitimate way out of that problem since if you kill the dragon and happen to fall in....

Originally? Whoever made up that sidequest thought, if he thought about it at all instead of assuming anyone getting in that hole would have mountain climbing gear and maybe wouldn't just fall in but rappel down, that the stuck players could just accept death and respawn wherever players were supposed to respawn.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Key Board

it IS a sadistic trap

SAO doesn't have to kill people that fail the game. It's not killing people because of a bug or some unintended side effect of the technology

It was made to FRY YOUR BRAIN if fail at this game.

It was an intended feature to punish people that don't live up to some arbitrary game rule decided by an eccentric madman. It's exactly like Saw or Kaiji. (And yes, it is possible to survive those games to.)

And there's just several other things made to give the player a disadvantage.

no long range weapons
no buff abilities
expensive hard to get healing items
allowing player killing in CO-OP game

The game favors people like Kirito who over-level and grind like a Chinese gold farmer.

I don't want to go deep into this argument again, but it's supposed to be "real". What makes it real? Death. Because death makes things important. It's supposed to be a real world where real people live real lives with real fears and real dreams. Players can die, but they can also taste the super-rare S-rank meat that doesn't exist in reality. They can have dinner with a friend, have a nice long chat, and walk home for the evening in a beautiful town, feeling the simulated refreshing night breeze on their simulated skin.

Think of the context of Kirito mentioning Kayaba in this episode. It wasn't "oh, he must be looking down on us and laughing", it was "did he plan for all of this? for us to enjoy this pleasant evening together?" In the very first episode Kayaba said his plan was already complete. There's no reason not to take him at his word. Whether people spend their days peacefully, die painfully, or even clear the game or not is of no concern to him. He just wants to see people live in the world he made.

I'm not saying this to defend him. He's clearly a crazy psycho who locked up 10,000 people in a dangerous situation against their will. He built helmets specifically designed to kill them. He's probably the most wanted terrorist in the world for what he's done. But it's not just simple sadism. He's a more complex character than that, even if we can only see his influence indirectly.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I don't want to go deep into this argument again, but it's supposed to be "real". What makes it real? Death. Because death makes things important. It's supposed to be a real world where real people live real lives with real fears and real dreams. Players can die, but they can also taste the super-rare S-rank meat that doesn't exist in reality.

So in a way, Kayaba is like Kirito. Both are more interested in the fantasy world than in the real world, both are running away from reality, so to speak. I remember Kirito mentioned that he was obsessed with the game even during the beta testing, and it was all he could think about, etc.

Kayaba went a lot further of course. For him it wasn't enough to run away from reality, to believe the game was "real". He wanted to make it literally real.

Quite the crazy bastard.

On the other hand this explains why someone like Kirito, someone who is similar to Kayaba himself, is the most suited to be the hero of this game.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

So in a way, Kayaba is like Kirito. Both are more interested in the fantasy world than in the real world, both are running away from reality, so to speak. I remember Kirito mentioned that he was obsessed with the game even during the beta testing, and it was all he could think about, etc.

Kayaba went a lot further of course. For him it wasn't enough to run away from reality, to believe the game was "real". He wanted to make it literally real.

Quite the crazy bastard.

The series did start with Kirito idolizing Kayaba and reading about him in magazines, so yes, I think comparing them is intended.

[Key Board]

I think you're wrong about one thing Clarste. sensory input in SAO is actually muted
It's shown several time that they don't even feel pain when they are hit. They just blink red.

...and those special moves Kirito performs? you think he actually does all of that things manually? No, all of that is pre-programmed into the game. It's really a point and click system, except activated with his mind.
..and how about Lizbeth magically making a with sword just 3 tempers?

Which brings me to my next point.. they're too shackled by a lot of rules.Where is the immersion?
You can't even call this living virtually if there the only true immersion you get is the fear of death.

compare this to AccelWorld (same author)

Accel World has environment destruction.. it takes gravity into consideration. It has metal chemistry. And combat is actually physics based. A LOT MORE IMMERSION. (and actually, AW probably has TOO MUCH immersion because of the Incarnate System)

Anyway, if your intent was to argue that they're living another life in SAO, I must disagree. You can't even call that a virtual life. It's lacking too many things.

But I believe that the developer of SAO believes that what he is making constitutes as a virtual world.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Key Board

it IS a sadistic trap

Uhhh, ok, let me put it this way. To call it a "sadistic trap" implies the presence of sadism, which there isn't. Clearly there is some flawed logic here.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Uhhh, ok, let me put it this way. To call it a "sadistic trap" implies the presence of sadism, which there isn't. Clearly there is some flawed logic here.

you have a problem with semantics? ok, fine

callous trap

a callous trap with a noticeably aftertaste of the designer's intent to see the player struggle and experience generous amounts of hardship

there

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I think you're wrong about one thing Clarste. sensory input in SAO is actually muted
It's shown several time that they don't even feel pain when they are hit. They just blink red.

...and those special moves Kirito performs? you think he actually does all of that things manually? No, all of that is pre-programmed into the game. It's really a point and click system, except activated with his mind.
..and how about Lizbeth magically making a with sword just 3 tempers?

Which brings me to my next point.. they're too shackled by a lot of rules.Where is the immersion?
You can't even call this living virtually if there the only true immersion you get is the fear of death.

compare this to AccelWorld (same author)

Accel World has environment destruction.. it takes gravity into consideration. It has metal chemistry. And combat is actually physics based. A LOT MORE IMMERSION. (and actually, AW probably has TOO MUCH immersion because of the Incarnate System)

Anyway, if your intent was to argue that they're living another life in SAO, I must disagree. You can't even call that a virtual life. It's lacking too many things.

But I believe that the developer of SAO believes that what he is making constitutes as a virtual world.

It doesn't have realism, but it's real anyway. Because of death. It's not about simulating reality; what would the point of that be? It's about creating a new reality from scratch. What makes things real? What makes you alive? The series is spending quite a bit of time asking these questions.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Key Board

the designer's intent to see the player struggle and experience generous amounts of hardship

Uhhh, which series have you been watching? Cos I've been watching Sword Art Online. And I've never seen any designer express the such an intent.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

All Kirito's ability to still call it "fair" means is that he's able to look at things objectively instead of being stuck reacting emotionally because of his personal involvement.

This is where I think Kirito is making assumptions that could cost people's lives.

Enough time has passed that even by darts-at-board kind of calculations would indicate that most people would get tired. What was Kayaba's real intention when making this game, that it would be cleared or that the players would settle down and enjoy life?

Which makes the new randomness make sense, as it won't be just a grind but real risk of life.

The game is no longer "fair".

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

What was Kayaba's real intention when making this game, that it would be cleared or that the players would settle down and enjoy life?

Neither, I do believe Kayaba made his intent very clear during the first episode.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

What was Kayaba's real intention when making this game, that it would be cleared or that the players would settle down and enjoy life?

I'm not sure he has any particular intention at this point. The mad scientist in me thinks that the whole thing would be a pretty awesome social experiment. In which case he might be sitting back and recording data without any plans to interfere one way or the other.

[Dengar]

I don't recall the specifics, but I might go back and watch it again, but wasn't it along the lines of "Creating a whole new world where people can live to their heart's content."? Therefore, what happens AFTER creating such a world is of no concern to Kayaba at all.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Clarste

It doesn't have realism, but it's real anyway. Because of death. It's not about simulating reality; what would the point of that be? It's about creating a new reality from scratch. What makes things real? What makes you alive? The series is spending quite a bit of time asking these questions.

my point is that aside from the fear of death SAO doesn't feel alive, and there is no merit to it.

there's living and there's simply being alive. This applies to just everything including online games.

how many SAO players are genuinely enjoying SAO? as you say.. "living" in it

from what I've seen so far, SAO is consisted of

1) suicidal Cleaners that will do everything to beat the game, often, forgetting their own safety
2) people who form relationships with other players to take their mind off all the sorrow and depression
3) people who have lost their sanity and started killing other players to ease their boredom
4) beggars in the starting area which live sad uncertain lives
5) people like Kirito

It seems to me that most would rather not be in SAO. It takes a certain mentality to actually enjoy being in SAO. The broken kind.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

This is where I think Kirito is making assumptions that could cost people's lives.

Enough time has passed that even by darts-at-board kind of calculations would indicate that most people would get tired. What was Kayaba's real intention when making this game, that it would be cleared or that the players would settle down and enjoy life?

Which makes the new randomness make sense, as it won't be just a grind but real risk of life.

The game is no longer "fair".

As I said, "fair" is only about making in a challenging MMORPG. It isn't about making it possible for nobody to die, it certainly isn't about giving everyone god-mode.

To keep the game challenging, it makes sense that every floor is harder than the last. To keep it interesting, it makes sense that the difficulty is about more than stats-grinding.

Yes, there are traps like the one that killed the Black Cats. It's possible than in higher floors, such traps will claim even the lives of experienced, elite players. It doesn't make the game unfair.

Originally Posted by Dengar

I don't recall the specifics, but I might go back and watch it again, but wasn't it along the lines of "Creating a whole new world where people can live to their heart's content."? Therefore, what happens AFTER creating such a world is of no concern to Kayaba at all.

Well, I think he's still interested in seeing what happens. But I agree he may not have a "preferred outcome", or any kind of post-SAO plan.

[Dengar]

Whether living in that world can be considered living or not is ultimately up to the players, isn't it?