Bleach Episode 289 Discussion Thread

[Mr.Amazing]

true, but I saw that as more of a last ditch move, otherwise he was dead. With his hollowfication, he feels he can win with out relying on his shinigami powers.

[Uchiha Soul]

Tousen was great as always, and his hollowification was EPiC.

I have 2 theories:

First is: Tousen was right about everything he said to koma, he's not corrupted the Soul Society is .. he always seeking for justice and he was searching for it everywhere he went and finally he found it with Aizen and that explain that Aizen's goal is more justice than Soul Society. It might Tousen discovered the real face behind SS and followed Aizen who was already knew everything about them.

The other theory is Tousen's mind was played by Aizen, he convinced Tousen that SS is the reason behind his friend's death and they must bring justice to this world.
I know Tousen is not stupid to believe this but maybe Aizen was so good.


To me, I will go with the first theory, I always have the feeling that SS are the Evil side (not all of them of course) but the big head of SS , their rules and thoughts are bad and evil .. im not saying Aizen is good but SS is not either.

[Alchemist007]

I think it's a little of column A, a little of column B.

[Kookee2k2]

Originally Posted by sayde

Spoiler for quoted post:

Well in that case, I'll take you up on the offer. And I'll do my best to keep it relatively brief. So lets see if I have this right...



So basically what you're trying to say is the following:
Hollowfication=more spirit energy compression & control
Bankai = less spirit energy compression & control.
Less spirit energy compression & control = decrease or no change in strength when releasing to Bankai depending on the bankai.
Therefore, hollowfication > Bankai


I think that's the jist of it. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

However, if these are indeed all of your points, and we're too assume it's all true (even though I have my doubts with a few things in that post) I'm not entirely convinced it gives Tousen a good strategic reason to not use Bankai. This is because (going off your statements alone) the affects of hollowfication should allow a shinigami to overcome a bankai's main weakness. In other words, instead of a Bankai decompressing a shinigami's reiatsu, hollowfication should allow them to keep their reiatsu compressed (or at least to a greater extent), therefore vastly improving their potential and effectiveness during the use of Bankai as a result.

So Tousen should be able to benefit from all the hax advantages his bankai grants while also gaining the speed and strength boosts he's demonstrated so far. I think that about sums up my perspective on the matter.



For the purpose of trying to keep this from getting too long, I'd prefer not to answer.
Besides, I'm not sure I needed to for the sake of supporting my point.

Ah, but with Tousen's Bankai (which he used against Kenpachi), what was Tousen's overall advantage?
sure it basically eliminated every sense (cept for touch/pain) from his opponent, plus his Bankai would've forced Tousen and whom ever kept in a confined space.

but in the end did we really see any sort of actual increase in Tousen's abilities while his Bankai was active?

Well, honestly, if you ask me, I didnt see any with Kenpachi in there

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Kookee2k2

sure it basically eliminated every sense (cept for touch/pain) from his opponent,

You almost make it seem like that's no big deal. lol

Originally Posted by Kookee2k2

plus his Bankai would've forced Tousen and whom ever kept in a confined space.

The space inside his Bankai is still relatively huge.

Originally Posted by Kookee2k2

but in the end did we really see any sort of actual increase in Tousen's abilities while his Bankai was active?

No, we didn't. At the same time, we didn't really see any sort of actual decrease in his abilities either. (Just a decrease in intelligence)

So it stands to reason that Vizard-Tousen would still retain the same strength and speed boosts he has right now if he were to use hollowfication + Bankai.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by sayde

So basically what you're trying to say is the following:
Hollowfication=more spirit energy compression & control
Bankai = less spirit energy compression & control.
Less spirit energy compression & control = decrease or no change in strength when releasing to Bankai depending on the bankai.
Therefore, hollowfication > Bankai


I think that's the jist of it. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

However, if these are indeed all of your points, and we're too assume it's all true (even though I have my doubts with a few things in that post) I'm not entirely convinced it gives Tousen a good strategic reason to not use Bankai. This is because (going off your statements alone) the affects of hollowfication should allow a shinigami to overcome a bankai's main weakness. In other words, instead of a Bankai decompressing a shinigami's reiatsu, hollowfication should allow them to keep their reiatsu compressed (or at least to a greater extent), therefore vastly improving their potential and effectiveness during the use of Bankai as a result.

So Tousen should be able to benefit from all the hax advantages his bankai grants while also gaining the speed and strength boosts he's demonstrated so far. I think that about sums up my perspective on the matter.


.

Edited:
Yes I am not talking really
Why would Tousen use Bankai if he knows Koumura would have already seen it before. fI Tousen used his bankai he would have been playing on a equal stage with the rest of the shinigamis. But I think it would be best if he was able to do like Ichigo does use bankai with your hollow mask on like you said basically.

I wonder if him not using bankai had anything to do with the fact of the speech he said. I mean by using bankai he shows that he has not yet submitted to this form and I am still your friend. I mean after all Ichigo uses bankai in his hollow state, but he has yet to submit himself to his hollow. He is still says he is a shinigami instead of vizard like Shinji and the others(Who also don't use bankai before hollowfication)

[dragonmeister]

Originally Posted by Kookee2k2

Ah, but with Tousen's Bankai (which he used against Kenpachi), what was Tousen's overall advantage?
sure it basically eliminated every sense (cept for touch/pain) from his opponent, plus his Bankai would've forced Tousen and whom ever kept in a confined space.

but in the end did we really see any sort of actual increase in Tousen's abilities while his Bankai was active?

Well, honestly, if you ask me, I didnt see any with Kenpachi in there

I guess the idea was that he would be able to run around at stupidly fast speeds, attacking with massive strength, without his opponent able to sense him until they'd been cut, when it'd be too late. What I don't get is why he doesn't just go for a quick attack to the back of the neck to kill the enemy while they're still disorientated by his bankai's effects (instead of going for a shoulder-cut like he did against Kenpachi).

[sayde]

Originally Posted by dragonmeister

What I don't get is why he doesn't just go for a quick attack to the back of the neck to kill the enemy while they're still disorientated by his bankai's effects (instead of going for a shoulder-cut like he did against Kenpachi).

Hence my statement about the "decrease in intelligence".
He was attempting the pointless endeavor of trying to instill fear into a man with no fear instead of doing what was important -- winning the battle.

Otherwise, he's perfectly capable of ending a fight in a single attack with his Bankai. But only when it's convenient for the plot. The way he used his Bankai back in TBtP is a prime example of his Bankai put to good use. It'll probably never happen again though.

[Mr. DJ]

that happens when there's bad writing present Tousen's bankai was ridiculously overpowered.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

that happens when there's bad writing present Tousen's bankai was ridiculously overpowered.

I saw it and it isn't that overpowered and I should know. I mean really lets say a person who doesn't fear like Kenpachi or a person who uses there mind not there eyes to attack could stop a bankai like Tousen. People like Aizen though can easily stop a ability like that. But then if Gin faced Tousen's bankai he would lose to it

[sayde]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

that happens when there's bad writing present Tousen's bankai was ridiculously overpowered.

^^heh. You're not kidding.

Originally Posted by secretzfan

I saw it and it isn't that overpowered and I should know. I mean really lets say a person who doesn't fear like Kenpachi or a person who uses there mind not there eyes to attack could stop a bankai like Tousen.

It really is overpowered. Kenpachi escaped because Tousen was stupid enough to give him the time he needed to adapt to it. Had Tousen decided to go straight for a fatal blow on that very first attack, the fight would've been over. Because Kenpachi showed absolutely no signs of being able to avoid it. He was basically at Tousens mercy for those first few moments inside it.

So even against someone who has no fear, that *shouldn't* really give them much of an advantage if his Bankai is used appropriately. Unless someone is used to fighting under the conditions his bankai creates, adapting to those conditions quick enough to avoid being blitzed from someone that fast is practically inconceivable.

We also haven't seen anyone in this series so far (aside from Tousen) who relies more so on their "mind" to attack as oppose to their eyes. Even if there was such a character in this series, they'd still have to get used to not being able to hear, smell AND sense spiritual energy. Because Tousen's Bankai blocks that too.

Originally Posted by secretzfan

People like Aizen though can easily stop a ability like that. But then if Gin faced Tousen's bankai he would lose to it

The only reason Aizen would definitely win is because he possesses the only thing more hax than Orihime's abilities -- the hogyoku. Without it, Tousen stands a fair chance against a normal Aizen.

Remember, he's the only one in this entire series so far, who never has to worry about getting caught in hypnosis. So it's not like Aizen could use that to escape.
---------------------------
*removed for spoilers*
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So Aizen losing to Tousen and his Bankai wouldn't be too unbelievable if Tousen went straight in for the kill.

Truthfully, there's only a very small number of characters in this entire series who'd stand a decent chance against Tousen and his bankai (assuming Tousen played it smart and went straight for a fatal blow every time)

-anyone with high speed regeneration capabilities (minus any weak fodder hollows)
-Barragan
-Ichigo (for having plot-kai that holds no bounds)
-Yamamoto (for having insane area-of-effect/AoE attacks).

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by sayde

^^heh. You're not kidding.



It really is overpowered. Kenpachi escaped because Tousen was stupid enough to give him the time he needed to adapt to it. Had Tousen decided to go straight for a fatal blow on that very first attack, the fight would've been over. Because Kenpachi showed absolutely no signs of being able to avoid it. He was basically at Tousens mercy for those first few moments inside it.

So even against someone who has no fear, that *shouldn't* really give them much of an advantage if his Bankai is used appropriately. Unless someone is used to fighting under the conditions his bankai creates, adapting to those conditions quick enough to avoid being blitzed from someone that fast is practically inconceivable.

We also haven't seen anyone in this series so far (aside from Tousen) who relies more so on their "mind" to attack as oppose to their eyes. Even if there was such a character in this series, they'd still have to get used to not being able to hear, smell AND sense spiritual energy. Because Tousen's Bankai blocks that too.



The only reason Aizen would definitely win is because he possesses the only thing more hax than Orihime's abilities -- the hogyoku. Without it, Tousen stands a fair chance against a normal Aizen.

Remember, he's the only one in this entire series so far, who never has to worry about getting caught in hypnosis. So it's not like Aizen could use that to escape. It's also important to remember that even Aizen took a little time to adapt to having his senses merely reversed (much less removed completely). In fact, he couldn't even adapt in time to avoid taking that first hit from Shinji. So Aizen losing to Tousen and his Bankai wouldn't be too unbelievable if Tousen went straight in for the kill.

Truthfully, there's only a very small number of characters in this entire series who'd stand a decent chance against Tousen and his bankai (assuming Tousen played it smart and went straight for a fatal blow every time)

-anyone with high speed regeneration capabilities (minus any weak fodder hollows)
-Barragan
-Ichigo
-Yamamoto (for having insane area-of-effect/AoE attacks).

True by going for the fatal blow the first time is a way to win and Tousen probably didn't go for the fatal blow for the first time. because he was overconfident, but even Kaname's bankai was so overpowering then I don't care if he got the fatal blow first time or not he still should have won

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

True by going for the fatal blow the first time is a way to win and Tousen probably didn't go for the fatal blow for the first time. because he was overconfident, but even Kaname's bankai was so overpowering then I don't care if he got the fatal blow first time or not he still should have won

his overconfidence was misplaced when you think about what he did in TBTP, he didn't waste any time.

[dragonmeister]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

But then if Gin faced Tousen's bankai he would lose to it

Surely if he just activated Shinsou and turned around loads of time (or ran in a straight line until he felt a wall and then just swiped from side to side) he could either get Tousen or at least keep him at bay, especially seeing as he'd be able to feel touch through his blade and adapt to it (he is a genius, after all)

[sayde]

Originally Posted by dragonmeister

Surely if he just activated Shinsou and turned around loads of time (or ran in a straight line until he felt a wall and then just swiped from side to side) he could either get Tousen or at least keep him at bay, especially seeing as he'd be able to feel touch through his blade and adapt to it (he is a genius, after all)

I don't know...I get the feeling that if one to were to run full speed towards a wall without knowing how far in front of them the wall is, it probably wouldn't end well. lol

Besides, even if he could make it towards a wall, he'd still have a problem. The width of his sword is just too short to make swinging recklessly in front (or all around him) a safe thing to do. To put what I'm stating into perspective a little bit, Gin would basically need nothing short of the ability to swing a tall and very long wall back and forth, really fast, without falter in order to ensure Tousen stays far away and can't simply jump or crouch under each swing. Otherwise, Tousen could just as easily use shunpo to take advantage of a missed attempt. Without the ability to see or hear, keeping him at bay would be pretty difficult to do since he'd lack the senses needed to adjust the height of each swing (in order to force Tousen into evading/blocking each time).

The last thing I wanted to point out is that Gin rarely uses shinsou to make extremely long, broad, side-sweeping swings (even when he can see). He seems to mostly take advantage of it's ability to expand and contract far distances really fast making Shinsou first and foremost used like a high powered gun -- hence the release command "shoot to kill". Now if I had to take a guess as to why that is, I'd have to assume it's because swinging around a blade while it's at such an impractical length just isn't very...practical. If the blade is too long, it's too slow to swing, too easy to see coming, and too easy for the opponent to make a counter-attack if & when evaded. So I'm not sure the tactic would be all that beneficial even with all of Gin's senses still in-tact.

[dragonmeister]

Originally Posted by sayde

I don't know...I get the feeling that if one to were to run full speed towards a wall without knowing how far in front of them the wall is, it probably wouldn't end well. lol

Besides, even if he could make it towards a wall, he'd still have a problem. The width of his sword is just too short to make swinging recklessly in front (or all around him) a safe thing to do. To put what I'm stating into perspective a little bit, Gin would basically need nothing short of the ability to swing a tall and very long wall back and forth, really fast, without falter in order to ensure Tousen stays far away and can't simply jump or crouch under each swing. Otherwise, Tousen could just as easily use shunpo to take advantage of a missed attempt. Without the ability to see or hear, keeping him at bay would be pretty difficult to do since he'd lack the senses needed to adjust the height of each swing (in order to force Tousen into evading/blocking each time).

The last thing I wanted to point out is that Gin rarely uses shinsou to make extremely long, broad, side-sweeping swings (even when he can see). He seems to mostly take advantage of it's ability to expand and contract far distances really fast making Shinsou first and foremost used like a high powered gun -- hence the release command "shoot to kill". Now if I had to take a guess as to why that is, I'd have to assume it's because swinging around a blade while it's at such an impractical length just isn't very...practical. If the blade is too long, it's too slow to swing, too easy to see coming, and too easy for the opponent to make a counter-attack if & when evaded. So I'm not sure the tactic would be all that beneficial even with all of Gin's senses still in-tact.

I guess so - I just want Gin to be able to trash Tousen, since Gin's so awesome and Tousen's a useless goit whose motive is utterly fail.
I'd say that Byakuya could defeat Tousen's bankai with Senbonzakura Kageyoshi - either by spamming the area with petals (defending and attacking) until he got a hit (he should be able to feel if his weapons hit) or using them to help him feel out (as they should be able to change into many forms) and keeping a couple of his 2nd form swords to attack with - although that probably wouldn't happen, as in the Bleach universe, having an attack plan is for wusses apparently

[Mr.Amazing]

Originally Posted by sayde

Hence my statement about the "decrease in intelligence".
He was attempting the pointless endeavor of trying to instill fear into a man with no fear instead of doing what was important -- winning the battle.

Otherwise, he's perfectly capable of ending a fight in a single attack with his Bankai. But only when it's convenient for the plot. The way he used his Bankai back in TBtP is a prime example of his Bankai put to good use. It'll probably never happen again though.

I don't think his goal was to ever kill Kenpachi. His path is that with the least blood shed, so you could assume he was just trying to injure Kenpachi enough to eliminate him as a distraction. And inside his bankai his arrogance would swell.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Mr.Amazing

I don't think his goal was to ever kill Kenpachi. His path is that with the least blood shed, so you could assume he was just trying to injure Kenpachi enough to eliminate him as a distraction. And inside his bankai his arrogance would swell.

It appears Tousen had every intention on killing him.

Ever since you, Zaraki Kenpachi, killed the previous captain of the 11th division...I have had an uneasy feeling about your presence. This man is a demon. He fights to feed on the blood of the fallen, he is a being completely different from us. We must not let him dwell in our world for too long...
-chapter 146

But perhaps the quote that makes it official is

Even in a situation like this, he is still enjoying battle. You are too dangeous Zaraki Kenpachi!! Letting you live is way too dangerous!!
-chapter 147

Besides, his ideals regarding the path of least bloodshed don't mean he's adverse to spilling any blood at all. I think he might even accept that as an inevitability. Because he appears more than willing to do so if it means avoiding even more bloodshed in the future. With that said, he was willing to kill Ken because he predicted that Ken will destroy the peace the Gotei 13 fights to protect.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by sayde

It appears Tousen had every intention on killing him.

How are you so sure for all we can see he was planning on putting him in his place once and for all, but to kill him??.

[sayde]

I just quoted Tousen stating to Ken that "Letting you live is way too dangerous!!"
In what way would such a statement even sort of imply he wasn't going to kill him?