Bakemonogatari - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Narona

I remembered some things about that and Saint Peter, so I checked some books, and apparently it's not. (I need to watch the ep1 again though; to see if the christ is on this big cross)

Now we don't know a lot of things about Oshino. Does he work alone for example? Or for the church?

These reversed crosses clearly points out at saint peter. Maybe there are clues in prayers or the litanie of saint peter. But now I don't feel like searching why the author used it (lazy)

Whether or not Christ is depicted on the cross, an upside-down cross has come to be associated with the anti-Christ in popular imagination. In fact, it has lead to much misunderstanding: As the Pope is represented with a Cross of St Peter, since Peter is considered the first pope of the Catholic Church, many people mistakenly think that shows the Catholic Church is "satanic".

However, given the prolific use of pseudo-Christian symbols in anime (Evangelion, anyone?), I'm guessing that the animators used the upside-down cross just because it looks "cool". I don't know if the author actually describes Oshino wearing or using an inverted cross.

That said, if it were intentionally used, it could be pretty clever. After all, Oshino is the king of double meanings, so I'm sure he relishes carrying a symbol that could mean two things: the sign of ultimate evil, or of the ultimate servant of good.

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Ever thought that the author of these stories just came up with a random name just to screw with you guys.

I say it is a red herring.

Originally Posted by Reekon

Maybe because the author wanted to justify the use of the raincoat?

Yeah I think he's messing with us. Maybe he just "needed" to use a raincoat to hide Kanbaru's face during her attacks.

Possible thought process:
- So let's use a raincoat to hide Kanbaru's face.
- If I use a raincoat, then I better relate it to the oddity.
- Ah-hah! Let's call the oddity "rainy devil".

I suppose the rainy devil/monkey's paw could be nothing more than a red herring, but given Nishio Ishin's modus operandi, it'll be somewhat out-of-character for him to use one here. If that were indeed the case, I'd be a little bit disappointed at his sloppiness in this instance. Somehow, though, I suspect there is something more, a clue that we may have missed.

Originally Posted by rocket

I felt the same way. The raincoat was a link. The monkey was a link.

It's a case of finding another demon that could cause a mistaken identity with your 'run of the mill' cursed Monkey's Paw.

I wonder if there is some 'monkey in the rain' type demon mythology. Kinda like 'gorillas in the mist' (^_-)

Hmm.. Google says, "definitely maybe." Aftendeamon, first identified by Karl Schlesier in 1959. Ape/Monkey Demon identified as a rain god based on similarities to the Mesoamerican rain deity Tlaloc. It has a military aspect and has the same running stance seen in warrior representations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sjB...0demon&f=false

Thanks very much for the extra sleuthing.

Who knows? Maybe that scrap of conjecture could lead somewhere. The key thing to remember is this: Conceptually, Kanbaru doesn't need to meet the rainy devil to get her wishes granted. If the "monkey's paw" her parents left for her is the same one referred to in the real-life novel, it already has sinister wish-giving properties of its own.

So, the rainy devil is something extra that Nishio Ishin deliberately worked into the story. Maybe he used it simply because he thought it was "cool", but given his methods, I tend to think not. The fun, I guess, comes from figuring out if there could be meaning behind it all.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Somehow, though, I suspect there is something more, a clue that we may have missed.

Well, the arm is still there. They could always go back to it in a future episode and reveal a bit more about it.

I for once, am still trying to figure out how she manages to hide it under the bandages. After all, her arm literally transforms back to human shape when she put the bandage on.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

I for once, am still trying to figure out how she manages to hide it under the bandages. After all, her arm literally transforms back to human shape when she put the bandage on.

I don't know... I thought it's because the arm is lined with long fur, giving the impression that it looks bigger than her regular arm.

But the palm of the devil's hand is much bigger indeed, so unless the arm has some weird anatomy going for it, the arm should likewise be proportionally bigger as well.

[aulzon]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Well, the arm is still there. They could always go back to it in a future episode and reveal a bit more about it.

I for once, am still trying to figure out how she manages to hide it under the bandages. After all, her arm literally transforms back to human shape when she put the bandage on.

It's all the fur. If you had a fluffy dog and suddenly shaved him, it looks so skinny compared to before.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I don't know... I thought it's because the arm is lined with long fur, giving the impression that it looks bigger than her regular arm.

But the palm of the devil's hand is much bigger indeed, so unless the arm has some weird anatomy going for it, the arm should likewise be proportionally bigger as well.

Maybe she got a magical can-hide-anything-with-it bandage as a part of the package along with her wishes.

Originally Posted by aulzon

It's all the fur. If you had a fluffy dog and suddenly shaved him, it looks so skinny compared to before.

The hand in itself (as kujoe mentions) is actually bigger. And I honestly don't think you could actually hide so much fur under a simple bandage.

As it stands, I am somewhat lead to think of it as an ability of the arm itself. Kinda like hiding on purpose to avoid detection. >_<

[aulzon]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Maybe she got a magical can-hide-anything-with-it bandage as a part of the package along with her wishes.



The hand in itself (as kujoe mentions) is actually bigger. And I honestly don't think you could actually hide so much fur under a simple bandage.

As it stands, I am somewhat lead to think of it as an ability of the arm itself. Kinda like hiding on purpose to avoid detection. >_<

Yeah perhaps. I think it's more or less a stylistic decision by the character designer than anything.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Who knows? Maybe that scrap of conjecture could lead somewhere. The key thing to remember is this: Conceptually, Kanbaru doesn't need to meet the rainy devil to get her wishes granted. If the "monkey's paw" her parents left for her is the same one referred to in the real-life novel, it already has sinister wish-giving properties of its own.

So, the rainy devil is something extra that Nishio Ishin deliberately worked into the story. Maybe he used it simply because he thought it was "cool", but given his methods, I tend to think not. The fun, I guess, comes from figuring out if there could be meaning behind it all.

Well as I think was mentioned before, there would be differences. For one thing, the nature of the contract with the devil vs. the paw. The paw makes the wish come true, only in a twisted way. The devil is simply bound by contract to fulfill the wish if it can (that's important), and it's also significant that it only grants negative wishes.

If it were a monkey paw, generally the message you get about the person who wished upon it is that they were too lazy to achieve a goal themselves, too selfish, so on and so forth, but those are kinda mundane human flaws, aren't they? Greed, selfishness, laziness; we've all experienced them, and I don't think anyone would hesitate to admit that they've been greedy, selfish, or lazy at some point.

What makes the rainy devil special is that it really brings out that dark, nasty, hidden side in user. The murderous hate that burns under the heart. Powerful feelings of envy and revenge. The side you don't want anyone to see. How many people here would be as quick to admit that they've wanted to murder somebody?

I think that's what Nisio Isin was trying to emphasize in Kanbaru's story. Like the monkey's paw, but rather than putting the responsibility for the twisted outcome largely on the artifact, it lies almost fully on the user.

With the monkey's paw, it's like, "I just wanted a million dollars, I didn't want gang members to rob twenty banks to get it."

With the rainy devil, it's like, "I thought I just wanted to win the game, but I guess deep down I also wanted to get back at my rival in a really nasty way."

Subtle difference, but I think that's what's important.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by aulzon

Yeah perhaps. I think it's more or less a stylistic decision by the character designer than anything.

Yeah, this is probably true.

I still felt like whinning a bit about it, if only to get it off my chest.

[Intranetusa]

Did Aragi get his gut's ripped out, and then got swung around and around by that demon girl holding on to his intestines like a rope?

O_o

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Raiga

With the monkey's paw, it's like, "I just wanted a million dollars, I didn't want gang members to rob twenty banks to get it."

I think with the monkey's paw its more like "I just wanted a million dollars, but I didn't want it to come via the life insurance policy of my wife." The wish is literally granted, but twisted in such a way as to make the wisher worse off.

Actually I just realized there are two possible interpretations for what Oshino was explaining.

1. Kanbaru had a cursed talisman called a Money's Paw, but didn't use it. Instead she fell under the effect of an oddity called the Rainy Devil because she was tempted to do thoose kinds of things.

2. Kanbaru's had what she thought was a Monkey's Paw, but was actually a Rainey Devil in the form of a Monkey Paw. When she made a contract with the Devil, it grew into a Monkey Arm after taking some of her soul. Later Kanbaru couldn't find it becaue the Devil was still fused to her body, still trying to fullfil her new contract. Now the contract is canceled, but she still has a monkey arm.

[Azuma Denton]

Hmm from what i seen in eps 8...

Monkey Paw grants the wish in a twisted way...
Rainy Devil grants the real reason behind that wish...


Example:
Why Rainy Devil injured the other 4 contestant of Kanbaru not making her faster?
The real reason is because Kanbaru didnt want to run faster. She wants to win the competition to gain the acknowledgement of her classmate. Rainy Devil saw the real intention and choose the easiest way to grant her wish. Why bother make her faster if it can just get rid all her potential contender.

Why Kanbaru wanna kill Araragi if her wish is to be with Senjougahara?
Deep down inside Kanbaru, Kanbaru hate Araragi, because she feels that Araragi snatch away Senjougahara. So if she can get rid of Araragi, yes she can try to be with Senjougahara again.

CMIIW...

[Velsy]

mmm entertaining episode mainly because of Tsundere-chans invovlement at the end ^_^. But I do like Meme's part too.

For the fight seen. I dont mind lots of blood in anime. Bones braking I can deal with but still cringe a little. but when it goes *past that* thats when I start to hate it and find it very hard to watch. I dont like to have to pause and get a class of water or lie down for a bit cause I feel un easy. It seems as I've gottin older my constitution has started to break down. not things I can handle as I used too. I sorta wish they didnt have to go as far as they did. Pounded into a broke body, blooded mess would of been sound.

[b0nyb0y]

If you've seen gg subs, it's pretty clear that Kanbaru kind of knew from the very start that what she has is not Monkey's Paw. It's just that she was in denial about her true feelings and tried to find explanations that it wasn't really her desire to beat them up -- and Monkey's Paw story gave her the perfect excuse for that.

As Meme explained her situation to Araragi, you can see that she didn't show much surprise. For the whole time, she didn't even once object the idea that she tried to hurt or kill someone. Rather, during the conversation, she started facing away from them and showed darker and darker facial expression instead. To me, this clearly shows Meme was spot-on with his analysis and that she was actually conscious about her actual desire.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Well as I think was mentioned before, there would be differences. For one thing, the nature of the contract with the devil vs. the paw. The paw makes the wish come true, only in a twisted way. The devil is simply bound by contract to fulfill the wish if it can (that's important), and it's also significant that it only grants negative wishes.

...With the monkey's paw, it's like, "I just wanted a million dollars, I didn't want gang members to rob twenty banks to get it."

With the rainy devil, it's like, "I thought I just wanted to win the game, but I guess deep down I also wanted to get back at my rival in a really nasty way."

Subtle difference, but I think that's what's important.

I'm not disputing the differences between the monkey's paw and the rainy devil. I'm merely curious why a rainy devil would appear in the form of a monkey's paw, and how Kanbaru managed to encounter this particular oddity.

I'm not sure why everyone seems to be misunderstanding my question. Perhaps I'm not phrasing it clearly enough?

Just as Senjougahara's encounter with the crab was a unforseen result of her wish to shut down emotionally (weight and memories being a pun on emotions), and just as Hachikuji was a "lost cow" (a wordplay on "snail") stuck in a neverending pilgrimage (a wordplay on "hachikuji"), what is Kanbaru's link to the rainy devil?

Originally Posted by rocket

Kanbaru's had what she thought was a Monkey's Paw, but was actually a Rainey Devil in the form of a Monkey Paw. When she made a contract with the Devil, it grew into a Monkey Arm after taking some of her soul. Later Kanbaru couldn't find it becaue the Devil was still fused to her body, still trying to fullfil her new contract. Now the contract is canceled, but she still has a monkey arm.

Originally Posted by b0nyb0y

If you've seen gg subs, it's pretty clear that Kanbaru kind of knew from the very start that what she has is not Monkey's Paw. It's just that she was in denial about her true feelings and tried to find explanations that it wasn't really her desire to beat them up -- and Monkey's Paw story gave her the perfect excuse for that.

Well, for the lack of better interpretations, I can go along with either one of the above explanations.

Oh, incidentally, there is another way to interpret Senjoughara's "fire above, water below" remark. You see, I don't think it was a half-serious threat, as ickem suggests. Given that Senjougahara is still quite fond of Kanbaru, it seems unlikely that she'd directly harm Kanbaru unless she was forced to do so.

I don't think that line had particular meaning but, thematically, it reinforces the duality shared between Senjougahara and Kanbaru, the Valhalla Combi. Senjougahara was frequently associated with fire throughout Ep6 and, for some reason, Kanbaru, being her senpai's opposite, is associated with rain and water.

Together, they complete each other, even while they are fundamentally opposed to each other (water kills fire and vice versa).

[mannish_boy]

wait...I thought superstition of Monkey's paw was just an interpretation of her situation at the time done by herself , or, in other word, a deception made by her unconscious to keep her from becoming aware of her REAL wishes .
Yeah, indeed Kanbaru inherited it from her mom. But does it actually have the power to grant any wishes? Isn't it just an ordinary mummy?
Oshino said in ep7 that ...

Oshino: Araragi-kun, young lady, let me set your initial mistaken impression straight. The young lady's left arm isn't a monkey's paw. I've never heard of a monkey's paw binding onto its owner.

I think Monkey's paw is, in fact, just a souvenir or something and has no power,
and her mom told her a lie in order to train her daughter to be a person who is able to overcome difficulties by herself.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I'm not disputing the differences between the monkey's paw and the rainy devil. I'm merely curious why a rainy devil would appear in the form of a monkey's paw, and how Kanbaru managed to encounter this particular oddity.

I thought this is already said plainly in the episode? The arm is an oddity left by her deceased mother in order to teach her not to be dependent on such things in times of need. She must learn to cope and work out things for herself. (Not exactly the method I would use if I were her father, but ok...)

I'm not sure why the paw just turns out to be a Rainey Devil myself. It just seems too convenient for the writer to simply insert this revelation as a twist of sorts, but the simplest explanation would be her parents had probably mistaken it for a Monkey's Paw due to its similarities with the Rainey Devil.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I thought this is already said plainly in the episode? The arm is an oddity left by her deceased mother in order to teach her not to be dependent on such things in times of need. She must learn to cope and work out things for herself. (Not exactly the method I would use if I were her father, but ok...)

That's where I'm confused. Did her parents leave her a mummified hand in full knowledge that it was the remains of a rainy devil, and what that could entail? Or did they leave her what they thought was a monkey's paw, not knowing its true twisted nature?

As you asked, what kind of parents would deliberately leave something so dangerous to their daughter? Once again, it makes me wonder what Senjougahara really meant about Kanbaru's household. Had she been abused by her parents? The anime doesn't explain, nor does it give any clues.

Given the lack of evidence to support such speculations, I'd go with the straightforward interpretation that Kanbaru chose to deceive herself about the artefact's true nature. It just doesn't sit well with me though. It seems too arbitrary, unlike how Oshino managed to explain the links in the previous two cases.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by b0nyb0y

If you've seen gg subs, it's pretty clear that Kanbaru kind of knew from the very start that what she has is not Monkey's Paw. It's just that she was in denial about her true feelings and tried to find explanations that it wasn't really her desire to beat them up -- and Monkey's Paw story gave her the perfect excuse for that.

Yes. I don't know the different or any detail in novel. But it certainly leads audiences to this conclusion in the anime. Kanbaru received it from her mother. The real intention why her mother gave it to her was still unclear though. It might be just a charm in her family but it was awaken by Kanbaru's dark desire.

[Fate_T_H]

Originally Posted by qwertyman

I wouldn't call it character development. She's clearly blunt when it comes to expressing her love for Araragi. I don't see why she isn't as blunt with her other emotions that are also clearly there, or at least, why she doesn't satirically express them.

if hitagi chan were to lose her character and her lack of outward emotion, then how different would she be from your other typical female protagonists? this is tsundere chan's unique personality and i bet you half of her fans out there including me would be in an uproar.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Did Aragi get his gut's ripped out, and then got swung around and around by that demon girl holding on to his intestines like a rope?

O_o

That is correct. That had to hurt, being swung around by your intestines. It would have been a much gorier scene if they didn't use bright neon colors for his blood is a few scenes.