(L+CR) Free!

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by musouka

Then it certainly is strange that you only seem compelled to make an issue of it when it's outside your comfort zone.

Or it could be that I've talked about it more times than I count and you're conveniently pretending I haven't.

[brocko]

Since there's no image thread, I only have this place in which I can leave this here. I cracked up, no lie lol


On the current discussion taking place. The show really isn't that serious in the first place so accurate and serious character portrayals are somewhat misplaced-expectations imo. It's fine to dislike that aspect, but just be aware that the show probably never intended it to be otherwise.

EDIT: More lols

[Dagger]

Fabulous gif; thanks for sharing.

Hey, maybe it's one of those school dances where everyone is too shy to mingle and so they awkwardly segregate themselves by gender... I'd almost buy that if this show were taking place in the U.S., anyway.

[Lota]

Brocko, lol, thanks, your post really made me laugh Ahhhh, I love that song, I'm surprised the thought of putting the song and the dance scene together didn't come to me earlier, that's a match made in heaven!

[Somethindarker]

I watched this show because I thought it would remind me of my days as a swimmer/diver for my middle, high school and college teams. Personally if Kyoani woulda butched up the guys instead of copying and pasting the personalities the show would've been more enjoyable, the physiques were great, the characters designs and the forms of the swimming were spot on. Seriously, I doubt men who are champion swimmers would cuddle each other and act the THAT effeminate, unless they're gay of course, but even then I've known gay men who are no where near that effeminate. Kinda makes me curious what kind people these otakus are that buy into this stuff.

edit; personally what the teaser did in 45 seconds this show couldn't even do in 25 mins. Then again I ain't a fujoshi.

[Puu]

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

Seriously, I doubt men who are champion swimmers would cuddle each other and act the THAT effeminate, unless they're gay of course, but even then I've known gay men who are no where near that effeminate. Kinda makes me curious what kind people these otakus are that buy into this stuff.

I feel like this might just be generalizing and/or looking at Free! through western standards. I've read an article before of how Korean/Japanese male athletes pluck their eyebrows to look presentable. Japanese have skincare products directed to men. etc. etc. Based on a general idea of what's manly, being conscious about your skin/looks/facial hair beyond one's beard can be classified effeminate.

Or something.

tl;dr Japan's standards are probably different from western standards. Some bffs might actually hug each other out when nobody's looking and still be completely straight....

[cyth]

No such thing as straight men hugging each other.

On a more serious note, I imagine Free! swimsuit guise will be a real challenge to cosplay hopefuls.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by musouka

I'm not saying you've never touched on the subject ever. I'm saying that you seem to have an issue with defaulting to "feminine" when fictional men act outside of what you define as masculine verisimilitude. We wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place if it was just about you calling the Free! guys "unrealistic". You're the one that framed it as them acting like "middle school girls" despite them acting like absolutely nothing of the sort.

The level of disconnect from reality here is quite impressive, but to avoid derailing the topic even further I'll leave you to troll someone else.

[ginger02]

Originally Posted by brocko

On the current discussion taking place. The show really isn't that serious in the first place so accurate and serious character portrayals are somewhat misplaced-expectations imo. It's fine to dislike that aspect, but just be aware that the show probably never intended it to be otherwise.

I think it's that the show had a lot of anticipation beforehand and hype so some people are analyzing it and critiquing it further than they would have had this been another show to pop up.

[brocko]

Oh, definitely. It's the bane of pretty much every KyoAni show to be honest.

[Jmac]

It's only one episode, but I'm liking it! I like the ED song better than the OP. As for the characters I got a feeling there's some jealous between Rin and Haru.
Also,

Images

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[Parchevich]

Originally Posted by ginger02

I think it's that the show had a lot of anticipation beforehand and hype so some people are analyzing it and critiquing it further than they would have had this been another show to pop up.

I think you're being overly charitable here. The expectation certainly plays a part, but male otaku's entitlement and willful blindness is probably a much bigger reason for the whining. When men get fanservice, that's okay, that doesn't need to be questioned. When women get fanservice, that fanservice needs to be picked apart endlessly and judged on whether it's realistic or not. If it's not realistic, those stupid women shouldn't like it, obviously.

Men are so used to getting fanservice that women getting fanservice, and from a company that has previously catered only to men, makes them feel threatened and panic. Go look at /a/, if you need a laugh, it's all creeps flailing that the fujoshi are going to take over the anime industry and that they won't be able to get their loli fix anymore.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Parchevich

When men get fanservice, that's okay, that doesn't need to be questioned. When women get fanservice, that fanservice needs to be picked apart endlessly and judged on whether it's realistic or not.

To be fair, moe shows aimed at men are under constant scrutiny for what they are. It's not as if K-ON! and Key shows didn't receive their fair share of hate, from male and female critics alike. So what exactly exempts Free! from all this criticism? Just because it's fanservice aimed at women? Don't make me laugh.

The crux here is that it took an anime company who specialized in moe contents for males* to point out just how terrible some of the knee-jerk reactions are against fanservice shows in general. For KyoAni critics such as myself, one aspect why I enjoyed the first episode is exactly because it's now the other way around, but that in itself is entertainment to me. The entertaining thing here is, people who defend the show on grounds that the industry is being dominated by male-oriented content, and that makes the gratuous fanservice OK in this case (nevermind they are drooling over underaged boys, a common argument used against the moe pedo crowds), don't realize how utterly empty that argument is. The only thing it carries is a sentiment that fanservice is bad no matter who you aim it at. This is something I cannot agree with.

*and let's not start how K-ON! was popular with females, the first season was clearly aimed at male otaku

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You realize I hate K-ON! right?

I never said you liked it, I said you accepted the kind of things K-on does as a default, a fact of life. But when you see it from the "outside" (so to speak) suddenly you're uncomfortable with it, and expect others to take an issue with it.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

More to the point though, I think it's an important issue because compared to a show like Tsuritama, this is a complete joke portrayal of males. This isn't based on some arbitrary notion of realism either.

I don't agree with any of that, but anyway... Going by this logic K-on, but also many, many other shows geared toward male otaku are a complete joke portrayal of girls and women. What I've been trying to point out is that for some reason that's not an important issue - it's male fantasies aiming to appeal to men, and so it's regarded as the default modus operandi. If someone tried to criticize those shows on this basis they would get flamed and laughed at. (Especially if it was a woman, she'd be dismissed and mocked as a frothing feminist.) But when a light-hearted fanservice show geared toward women portrays male characters in a way that doesn't appeal to men (even though the show itself is not meant to appeal to men), it's suddenly an Issue that should be taken seriously because it concerns men and notions of masculinity and omg how dare they make a show that dismisses my needs and interests. (Also re: all the whining about "GAAAAAAYYYY" in certain shows.)

(A disclaimer again, obviously I'm talking in general terms. I'm not saying men can't enjoy Free or women can't enjoy K-on or any other show, or that all men/women have the same issues with everything and blah blah blah you get my point.)

There's also the issues musuoka mentioned, but I won't get into those.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

They don't have to behave like Danshi Koukousei characters. I'd take Tsuritama like portrayal any day.

So you like that sort of thing more than this sort of thing. Cool. Mind, I love Tsuritama, I like it a lot more than I'll ever like Free (that I don't even particularly like so far). But Free is not Tsuritama. This anime is a different genre and it wants to accomplish completely different things. You don't have to like it, but you just have to accept that it's not trying to make you like it. And that's completely OK.

Also, this is a light-hearted silly fanservice show about guys stripping at the drop of a hat and showing off their hot bodies and being all doujin fodders, and I can't help but feel it kind of hilarious that we're even having this argument.

End of story, as far as I'm concerned...

[Jmac]

Reason Free! is a refresh for me, that it's a complete 180 of what KyoAni usually does.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

What I've been trying to point out is that for some reason that's not an important issue - it's male fantasies aiming to appeal to men, and so it's regarded as the default modus operandi. If someone tried to criticize those shows on this basis they would get flamed and laughed at.

Ok this might be none of my business but Reck should know, he did criticize those shows on this basis and yes he's been flamed and laughed at.

If there's someone who's not being a hypocrite by complaining about the way males are portrayed here it's him.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

What I've been trying to point out is that for some reason that's not an important issue - it's male fantasies aiming to appeal to men, and so it's regarded as the default modus operandi. If someone tried to criticize those shows on this basis they would get flamed and laughed at.

Really? Whenever I criticized K-ON for what it was (and let's be honest, most female portrayals in anime don't do women real justice) I found the defenders to be pretty defenseless. Their default mode of defense was "ignore this person, he doesn't know what he's talking about" or "the sales figures says it all". The best argument for K-ON! was, honestly, that it was just too cute (I will leave the moesploitation arguments for a different day). Few dared to admit they're watching it for what this new joke portrayal of girl attitudes makes them feel, the sentiment was "leave me and my Mugi ero doujins alone!", and that's a problem. As long as Free's defenders will produce these types of arguments, it will be hard to let go of them, because they're senseless. And saying "but male otaku gets to have the exact same shit" is not the right argument for it in context of the level of realistic portrayal.

[Haiprbim]

I could stand these guys, but why the hell did you have to give them these gay cheerleader tops!? You f***ing serious!?

[Triple_R]

To be fair, some of us male anime viewers have criticized ecchi fanservice aimed at men. I myself have criticized it when I felt it went over the line, and/or when it was counterproductive to things like characterization and tone.

And yes, Reckoner is being consistent here. I can tell you from personal experience that he's not being any harder on Free! than he was on K-On!


That being said, I don't think that the fanservice in this show is over the line, and I don't think its counterproductive to things like characterization and tone. It might become that later on, but it's certainly not there yet, imo.

As I imagine a gender-flipped Free! in my mind, I doubt its level of fanservice would garner much attention. It might not even raise an eyebrow.

Are these characters somewhat idealized in how friendly and nice they are? Yes, they are. But only to the same degree that you commonly see with anime female characters. Kuromitsu is right there, so I don't find the characterization of the Free! guys particularly problematic.

The fact is that few anime shows captures teenagers as they actually tend to be. If you want that, I'd recommend Hyouka - For both genders.

[Kirarakim]

Okay this argument is getting silly. For one I know from both Enzo and Reckoner's posts on other threads that they don't think guys should only act by a set perimeter of masculinity.

I have a lot of issues with many of what male anime fans have said about Free!, Fujoshi, and women shows in general. I never felt anything sexist from any of Enzo's and Reckoner's comments. I think this is really just an issue of miscommunication.

However I disagree with them that the characters act like middle school girls or like any girls I know. Do I think they are realistic portrayals of guys? Well no I absolutely don't.

The guys in Free! are meant to appeal to female fantasies. I am not necessarily saying they are my fantasies lol but just like the girls in KON! (the oft cited example in this thread) appeal to male fantasies, it is the same for the guys in Free! And yes many of the same tropes appeal to both genders.

They are tropes not realistic portrayals of teenage boys or girls. They aren't meant to be.