Another - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Lord of Fire]

Okay, I feel I must rectify my earlier rant, as I overlooked something.

Kouichi was hospitalized and visited by the countermeasure team in April. However, the class didn't start ignoring Mei a few days later, on May 1, so there was no reason for Izumi to mention Mei back then, nor inform him of the class rules, as there weren't any yet.

The only time she could have done something was right before he started attending classes, and she was sick at the time. She could have asked the other two members to inform Kouichi, but her being the head of countermeasures might mean that she had to do it herself, so I'm not sure if she has a whole lot to blame for.

I'm still not justifying her behavior, but I can see the reason behind it more clearly than I could before. Still, why didn't she blame Kouichi, if she needed a scapegoat that desperately? Did she merely pick Mei because she was pretty much an outcast from the get-go, or is there more to Izumi than we're led to believe?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

And I find it pretty unfair that someone would support Izumi in her unjust accusation over Mei simply because they have a thing for hot readheads in overknee socks that make twintails look good.

I was being sarcastic and was intentionally "trolling", but I think the intent didn't come across very clearly. My mistake.

That aside, the interesting point is the different ways in which we "see" a character despite ostensibly looking at the same thing. And to a certain extent, this has been an intentional set-up throughout the series, most especially in Mei's case. She has gone from possible phantom to creepy to cute to detached to tragic and, finally, to being genuinely afraid of her circumstances. As I've brought up earlier, I believe this to be one of the themes of the story, that is, the juxtaposition of "seeing" and "perceiving". The way the Class of 72 "perceived" the original Misaki despite no one actually "seeing" him. The way a non-existent student is not supposed to be "perceived" even though everyone can "see" the individual.

The fact that the story invites viewers to ask such questions is what makes this series a cut above the norm, I find.

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

I'm still not justifying her behavior, but I can see the reason behind it more clearly than I could before. Still, why didn't she blame Kouichi, if she needed a scapegoat that desperately? Did she merely pick Mei because she was pretty much an outcast from the get-go, or is there more to Izumi than we're led to believe?

The joke answer, of course, is that Ms Twintail Redhead Tsundere was suffering a bad case of the jellies!

The better answer is that Kouichi can't possibly held responsible for doing something no one told him not to do. That's not the case with Mei. She was asked to take up a specific role which entailed certain responsibilities. She could have chosen not to do it, but since she did, Mei had a duty to her classmates to perform the role to the best of her ability. Izumi wasn't the only one who felt that Mei hadn't completely fulfilled her end of the bargain — there were murmurs of assent from others in the dining room. But those students chose to keep quiet about it. Rather than trying to pretend that the bad feelings don't exist, Izumi made a stand and vocalised what many students already clearly felt. In doing so, and by receiving a sincere apology from Mei, Izumi's hope was probably that everyone could then move on.

[Xcomp]

Oh, come on! Just when they were going to reveal who the reaper was! And hurray for spooky Anime photos. I won't be able to sleep tonight >.>

Sounds remain well directed. Thunder and the banging... Whoever doesn't have a subwoofer should get one. Really enhances the mood. I was thinking they would show more ghostly images when Mei covered her eye to look at Kouichi like someone appearing next to him or dead spirits

So I guess it's Naoya's turn to record his confession onto tape except he didn't kill the reaper like the last guy did from the looks of the teaser. I wonder why Mei still keeps the bandage over her eye even though they know she can use it to see the reaper? Would be the best time to use it now.

[Dengar]

The extra isn't a reaper.

[Xcomp]

Originally Posted by Dengar

The extra isn't a reaper.

I know that's not the correct translation but I just call it that because as long as it's around, people die

[Dengar]

So you consider killing them ok?

[sikvod00]

Technically, it's not killing because the person is already dead, right? What makes it difficult to pull off is that the person is a classmate or potentially someone close to you and they also act, look, and feel as though they're a living human being. So from their and everyone else's POV, you are murdering them in cold blood. But the question of whether it's ok to kill them, at least to me, is a no-brainer: it's not an immoral act. It's a question of resolve.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

=While I don't blame Mei for not revealing what she could "see", I do on the other hand feel that she hadn't been honest when accepting to do something she already knew was futile. So, on that count, it can be argued that she really didn't try "hard enough" and therefore does need to apologise. She could have just refused the job, instead of taking it on half-heartedly.

And I keep telling you that's not right. She was not being half-hearted about it and that there are plenty of evidence in the anime. On top of what I mentioned earlier, I should also add she always isolated herself from the rest of the class when she could, by going to the roof or sitting on an abandoned bench. However, Kouichi kept looking for her... nothing she could do about that. In retrospect, Kouichi was acting like quite the stalker: he even went as far as following her home, FFS. I can't blame him for wanting answers though.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

So, to come back to Mei's responsibility as the "non-existent", while she couldn't prevent Kouichi from approaching her, and is indeed not to blame that he does so, she could have simply ignored his advances and given him the cold shoulder. Imagine this: There is this cute girl in class that you try to hit on, but she keeps ignoring you. What would you eventually do? You'd most probably give up and move on.

There's just one tiny little difference there: Mei is not just a cute girl, she's a cute girl everybody ignores for entirely unknown reasons to our main character. And everytime he tries to ask somebody what the hell is going on, they avoid the subject. If you were in his shoes, would you really just give up because that girl ignores you as well? I certainly would not. At best, I'd think that girl has been severely bullied and needs help; at worst, I'd start to question my own sanity. In any case, I'd keep harassing everybody including that girl until I got some goddamn explanations for their behavior or end up in a mental hospital if that girl only existed in my mind.

That, at least, seems to be what Izumi and some students think, leading them to believe that Mei does indeed have partial responsibility for letting the counter-measure fail. I strongly disagree with the suggestion that Izumi is acting emotionally instead of thinking straight, because based on what we have seen of her personality and character, she isn't one who is prone to being emotional.

Rather, there are reasonable extenuating circumstances, such as those I've illustrated above, that explain how Izumi reached her conclusions in this episode. I'm not saying that she is above criticism and, admirably, neither does she. I do, on the other hand, have massive beef with those who feel that Izumi was acting irrationally in this episode when there are, in fact, sufficient grounds for her to do what she did.

That's where we can only agree to disagree apparently. I firmly believe Izumi was acting emotionally and that she resents Mei to some extent (her reaction when she saw Kouichi was about to defend Mei was a dead give-away, not to mention all the times she gave her the death glare). I also doubt her only intention was to defuse the situation. She was looking for somebody to blame (she all but said it was Mei's fault everybody died), which is actually a pretty human thing to do. We have a hard time admitting some things are completely out of our control, to the extent we even often blame ourselves ("if only I hadn't done that, then maybe...").

By the way, some students blame Kouichi as well, yet she didn't even try to address the issue. Shouldn't she have if her one and only noble goal was to alleviate the tension?

[Kitsu Breaker]

Dat paralelos

Spoiler for BRS x Another:

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Mei was not being half-hearted about it and that there are plenty of evidence in the anime.

That was a key part of my argument: There is plenty of evidence that only we the audience could see, but not the rest of the class. That makes us biased judges. There is also the problem that we, the audience, have been influenced by what the storyteller wants us to see, which makes us naturally sympathetic towards Mei's circumstances, but at the expense of learning about her classmates' perspectives.

The students don't know what Mei has gone through and what she has tried to do, and the problem is that Mei doesn't try to explain. Rather, when confronted by Izumi, she says the equivalent of "So what?"

If I were among the students, knowing only what they know, I would be incredibly pissed off with Mei's apparently nonchalant attitude. The tone of Mei's reply gives the impression that she "knows" she is guilty and that she doesn't care if her classmates think she is.

And that is what many viewers fail to consider, because we have indeed been affected by what we, and only we and a handful of other students such as Kouichi, have seen of Mei. We know by now that Mei often toys with people, such as the way she misled Kouichi in the earlier episodes and the way she joked about the moaning in the library basement. The problem is that, because of her deadpan delivery of these barbs, it is often very hard to tell when she is joking and when she is being serious.

That is the difficulty many of her classmates are dealing with, that Mei doesn't seem to care what happens to any of them. So, from this perspective, it becomes possible to understand why some students feel that Mei didn't take her responsibility seriously, thus putting all their lives in jeopardy. It's a pretty reasonable conclusion, given their circumstances.

A sincere apology would have helped greatly to clear all these misunderstandings, but Mei makes it sound as though she thinks: "Oh, what a bother. Fine, if it's an apology you twerps want, I'll give it to you. Not that I care what you losers think anyway."

Let us not forget that Mei has always been a socially inept person with few friends. She's actually a normal girl, just like everyone else, but because she has apparent difficulties interacting with other people, she often unwittingly creates a lot of ill will towards her. So, from her classmates' point of view, it becomes easier to believe that Mei was taking revenge on them by letting the counter-measure fail. Again, this is a reasonable conclusion for them to reach, given their circumstances.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Mei is not just a cute girl, she's a cute girl everybody ignores for entirely unknown reasons to our main character. And everytime he tries to ask somebody what the hell is going on, they avoid the subject. If you were in his shoes, would you really just give up because that girl ignores you as well? I certainly would not.

But then you'd be speaking only for yourself, and not for the universe of all possibilities. That is crucial, because there are apparently enough people in the class who believe that it could have worked had Mei given Kouichi the cold shoulder. It is not a possibility that can be outright denied.

Bear in mind again that Mei doesn't explain herself, but behaves as though she thinks: "So what? Even if I were explain, you losers wouldn't believe me anyway." I say again: Mei's apparent "I-don't-care" attitude is what infuriates Izumi and many of her classmates, which is why it's reasonable for them to feel that an apology is in order.

Originally Posted by Kanon

By the way, some students blame Kouichi as well, yet she didn't even try to address the issue. Shouldn't she have if her one and only noble goal was to alleviate the tension?

This point actually counts very heavily against your argument because, in my opinion, it proves that Izumi is still thinking clearly. She doesn't blame Kouichi because she already accepts that she was at fault for not having explained the counter-measure to him beforehand. Had she joined those classmates in trying to lynch Kouichi, then and only then would I think she was being emotional and vindictive in the whole affair. As it were, I strongly believe that she wasn't.

[PreSage]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Bear in mind again that Mei doesn't explain herself, but behaves as though she thinks: "So what? Even if I were explain, you losers wouldn't believe me anyway." I say again: Mei's apparent "I-don't-care" attitude is what infuriates Izumi and many of her classmates, which is why it's reasonable for them to feel that an apology is in order.

Sometimes, as the viewer, I get a sense of that apathetic side of Mei too. If Kouichi wasn't there, I really think that Mei will truly be apathetic to the class' situation (including her own).

[kk2extreme]

May be a VHS will be left behind this time...

[karuroso]

Interesting...so if Misaki theory that having an artificial eye etc is true and you could see the color of the dead, then I should actually have been able to see spirits or something like that since I have in my left eye a transplanted cornea from someone already dead, sadly I don't think I'm able to see any =/

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by karuroso

Interesting...so if Misaki theory that having an artificial eye etc is true and you could see the color of the dead, then I should actually have been able to see spirits or something like that since I have in my left eye a transplanted cornea from someone already dead, sadly I don't think I'm able to see any =/

Misaki would have more than a cornea, but either a completely artifical eye with the ability to grant vision(Would have to ask an eye specialist if this would be possible atm and even more 1987) or implants inside her eye. We do know that it is not the latter.
Its probably some phenomenon on its own though.
Her eye is special in several ways like being blessed by a prist and things.

[Guido]

When Misaki thoroughly explained Kouichi about she being able to see the color of death with her glass eye I thought of some examples.

The first was D.Gray-man with Allen's left eye able to tell humans and Akuma apart, but then I thought of other shows with more sinisters themes. One of them is Tsukihime; Shiki Tohno's ability to see the lines of death with his eyes.

I think it was in episode four that Misaki explained to Kouichi that when little she had developed a sort of cancerous growth around the area of her left eye and had to be surgically removed.
I theorize maybe Misaki got blessed/cursed with the glass eye able to see the color of death, because she experienced a close encounter with death in that surgery. It's just a theory nothing else.

But the thing is that with the eye and after listening to the tape she confirmed for real the identity of the year's extra person; the dead one, and why she was looking anxious.

From the preview, it looks that the story will reach the climax next episode.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That was a key part of my argument: There is plenty of evidence that only we the audience could see, but not the rest of the class. That makes us biased judges. There is also the problem that we, the audience, have been influenced by what the storyteller wants us to see, which makes us naturally sympathetic towards Mei's circumstances, but at the expense of learning about her classmates' perspectives.

The students don't know what Mei has gone through and what she has tried to do, and the problem is that Mei doesn't try to explain. Rather, when confronted by Izumi, she says the equivalent of "So what?"

If I were among the students, knowing only what they know, I would be incredibly pissed off with Mei's apparently nonchalant attitude. The tone of Mei's reply gives the impression that she "knows" she is guilty and that she doesn't care if her classmates think she is.

And that is what many viewers fail to consider, because we have indeed been affected by what we, and only we and a handful of other students such as Kouichi, have seen of Mei. We know by now that Mei often toys with people, such as the way she misled Kouichi in the earlier episodes and the way she joked about the moaning in the library basement. The problem is that, because of her deadpan delivery of these barbs, it is often very hard to tell when she is joking and when she is being serious.

That is the difficulty many of her classmates are dealing with, that Mei doesn't seem to care what happens to any of them. So, from this perspective, it becomes possible to understand why some students feel that Mei didn't take her responsibility seriously, thus putting all their lives in jeopardy. It's a pretty reasonable conclusion, given their circumstances.

A sincere apology would have helped greatly to clear all these misunderstandings, but Mei makes it sound as though she thinks: "Oh, what a bother. Fine, if it's an apology you twerps want, I'll give it to you. Not that I care what you losers think anyway."

Let us not forget that Mei has always been a socially inept person with few friends. She's actually a normal girl, just like everyone else, but because she has apparent difficulties interacting with other people, she often unwittingly creates a lot of ill will towards her. So, from her classmates' point of view, it becomes easier to believe that Mei was taking revenge on them by letting the counter-measure fail. Again, this is a reasonable conclusion for them to reach, given their circumstances.


But then you'd be speaking only for yourself, and not for the universe of all possibilities. That is crucial, because there are apparently enough people in the class who believe that it could have worked had Mei given Kouichi the cold shoulder. It is not a possibility that can be outright denied.

Bear in mind again that Mei doesn't explain herself, but behaves as though she thinks: "So what? Even if I were explain, you losers wouldn't believe me anyway." I say again: Mei's apparent "I-don't-care" attitude is what infuriates Izumi and many of her classmates, which is why it's reasonable for them to feel that an apology is in order.


This point actually counts very heavily against your argument because, in my opinion, it proves that Izumi is still thinking clearly. She doesn't blame Kouichi because she already accepts that she was at fault for not having explained the counter-measure to him beforehand. Had she joined those classmates in trying to lynch Kouichi, then and only then would I think she was being emotional and vindictive in the whole affair. As it were, I strongly believe that she wasn't.

Mei's personality or other circumstances involving her are totally irrelevant. Izumi messed up by not getting the class rules through to Kouichi in time (either by telling him herself, or letting the class officers do it for her in her absence), so she is the one who is ultimately to blame. From the moment Kouichi started talking to Mei on the school rooftop, the game was over before it had even begun. Anything Mei did or did not do after that would have been pointless. You don't have to be a genius or know all the details to understand this.

The class (probably) doesn't know that Kouichi was never informed of the rules, and that Mei tried to keep Kouichi away from her, but it still doesn't take away the fact that Izumi should have taken full responsibility for what had happened, and not lash out at Mei for not doing more than she could have done (which was pretty much impossible anyway, as that would have required her to just stay home and not go to school at all anymore). So, no, I don't believe Izumi was thinking straight, else she would've taken responsibility herself, which would have been the wisest thing to do.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

From the moment Kouichi started talking to Mei on the school rooftop, the game was over before it had even begun. Anything Mei did or did not do after that would have been pointless. You don't have to be a genius or know all the details to understand this.

TinyRedLeaf adressed this here

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by totoum

TinyRedLeaf adressed this here

I don't think said explanation really floats. Are we really going to assume that it's ok for the person to exist sometimes ? That occasional slip-ups are fine, and the phenomenon doesn't register that the nonexistent person actually exists occasionally ? That's a pretty arbitrary assumption, and in fact a rhetoric question on my part - Chibiki's exact words account for these slip-ups when he talks about the success rate of the countermeasure.

When explaining the countermeasure to Mei and Koichi, he said that it only works out 50% of the time. Sometimes it's clear why the countermeasure fails, other times he has no clue. His words.

The underlined part addresses all these "someone accidentally acknowledged the nonexistent person" - they make up the cases where the reason for failure is clear. There are no grounds on which to assume that small continuous slip-ups are allowed however, and Chibiki's words support the opposite.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That was a key part of my argument: There is plenty of evidence that only we the audience could see, but not the rest of the class. That makes us biased judges. There is also the problem that we, the audience, have been influenced by what the storyteller wants us to see, which makes us naturally sympathetic towards Mei's circumstances, but at the expense of learning about her classmates' perspectives.

I don't think we are biased so much as we are fair judges. Izumi is the biased one for only relying on what she saw and never once try to put herself in Mei's place nor even discuss her actions with her (at least not that I recall). Instead, she automatically assumed and went as far as claiming in front of the whole class that she had not done her job properly, and that if she had, her countermeasures would have worked. In doing so, she shifted all of the blame onto Mei. That was just plain wrong. This is the part of her speech that irked me the most and makes me unable to even consider she was acting the benefit of the whole class.

After she said this, her earlier apology appeared to be a simple formality to me, she got that out of the way so that Mei or someone else wouldn't be able to throw it at her face. I find a bit laughable that she chewed Mei out for not apologizing sooner even though she only did it a second earlier herself. That's a bit hypocritical, don't you think? If anyone is not blame (and I don't believe that is the case) for what happened, then she is. The primary reason her countermeasures failed is that she never informed Kouichi of the situation when she had the chance, not that Mei failed to avoid him (if anything, that's only secondary). She does not have any right to blame Mei for something that is the result of her own failure.

In the first pace, it was completely needless to bring that up now. People blame Mei and resent her? Let them, she can take it. In a way, that is how she takes responsibility: by letting others blame her in their heart and talk behind her back. She makes no excuse and does not ask for forgiveness. Please note that she never rebuked Izumi's accusations. She intended to keep bearing the blame. She simply said apologizing is pointless, and I believe she is correct. Apologizing won't change anything, at best it will only make her feel better about herself.

I agree with the rest of your post about Mei. It is true that her attitude must be very irritating and I fully understand why others including Izumi would hate her guts for not showing a shred of concern for her fellow classmates.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

This point actually counts very heavily against your argument because, in my opinion, it proves that Izumi is still thinking clearly. She doesn't blame Kouichi because she already accepts that she was at fault for not having explained the counter-measure to him beforehand. Had she joined those classmates in trying to lynch Kouichi, then and only then would I think she was being emotional and vindictive in the whole affair. As it were, I strongly believe that she wasn't.

I didn't mean that she should have blamed Kouichi, but rather that she should have explained to everybody that he is completely blameless. I'm sure a lot students resent him just as much as they do Mei, so if her true intent was to restore harmony, she should have address that as well.

No, I believe the only thing she truly wanted was to hear from Mei's mouth was that it was all her fault, in order to alleviate her own guilt.

[PreSage]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

From the moment Kouichi started talking to Mei on the school rooftop, the game was over before it had even begun.

Actually, the curse started well before Kouichi met or even talked to Mei. Remember that he first met Mei in the elevator hospital either the night of the day he met the student council/countermeasure students (April 26th), but Mei's twin died the day before; so technically the curse started well before their chance encounter. Thus, the countermeasure failed, perhaps even before it started.

Thinking back to Izumi's dream of meeting with Kouichi, one thing I find odd is that if they met back in 1993 (...the year her brother died, correct me of the year if I'm wong), then why do they look the same as they do now? I'd imagine they would look much younger, no?